Jingus Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I've heard plenty of stories about various Rock promos being written by Russo and Gewirtz and the like, so it's not even close to accurate to claim that he wrote all "his own material". From what I heard, wrestling is definitely more respected in those other mentioned countries than it is here. But it's not like it's some kind of solemn tradition of national sport or anything like that. It just looks that way to some of us because of how badly American society looks down on wrestling and treats it as a joke, beneath contempt. With the worst part being that it's not even an accurate joke, since most non-fans still for some reason believe that we think it's all a real sport with legitimate competition. How the hell does that particular stereotype still exist, two decades after Vince went public with the work, and long years after Foley and others sold a whole shitload of books totally exposing the inner workings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 The Rock wasn't scripted in the sense guys are today with their entire promos written beforehand. His promos were largely done "old school" style where he was given the key points to get over and left it up to him how to get there. Not to mention some of Rock's best lines were ad-libs usually prompted by something the crowd would be doing or chanting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wrestling in Canada does seem to be a more respected cultural thing than here. It can be covered in the mainstream media without anchors making it known that its beneath them. Wrestlers can regularly appear on something like Off the Record and be treated seriously. Probably the best myth posted here. Here's another: When did the "Rocky III *made* Hogan" stuff start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawren Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wrestling in Canada does seem to be a more respected cultural thing than here. It can be covered in the mainstream media without anchors making it known that its beneath them. Wrestlers can regularly appear on something like Off the Record and be treated seriously. Off The Record is like, the weak version of PTI or Best Damn Sports Show. And the reason they constantly got interviews was that TSN wanted to promote RAW (which probably made them a boatload of money). Notice how they aren't interviewed on OTR now that RAW and SD are on the Score? And as far as anchors, I can think of several instances where Dutyschen (sp) or one of the other TSN anchors would joke about RAW or mock what just happened during the in-show SportsCenter segments. I know it's fun to think that in far-off lands, wrestling is respected and our fandom is justified, but at far as Canada goes it just isn't true. Wrestling results aren't reported in the paper, it's not some venered cultural institution, and Bret Hart isn't our Michael Jordan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 It's not that Bret Hart isn't known, but it's not like he's revered like Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux, or even Sale and Pelletier (the two figure skaters who were robbed of golds at the Olympics). The closest was a good ranking in that Greatest Canadian poll that CBC did, but that was hardly a scientific poll by any stretch of the imagination. That's why when Sean posted what he did, I couldn't help but smile. From what you hear on the net, you'd swear Canada was like Japan with wrestling, but it's basically a mini-U.S. As far as mainstream coverage goes, Sun Media might have weekly (small) columns but that's it, and they're looked upon as minor papers. The only stuff getting into mainstream is the expected stuff (Benoit murder-suicide, Owen death, Eddy death, Tyson-Austin face-off on RAW (thanks in large part to Tyson's fame). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 But...but...Scott Keith said that the Harts were the closest thing Canada had to a Royal Family... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 But...but...Scott Keith said that the Harts were the closest thing Canada had to a Royal Family... Canada's not part of the Commonwealth in Scott Keith land... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wrestling in Canada does seem to be a more respected cultural thing than here. It can be covered in the mainstream media without anchors making it known that its beneath them. Wrestlers can regularly appear on something like Off the Record and be treated seriously. I know it's fun to think that in far-off lands, wrestling is respected and our fandom is justified, but at far as Canada goes it just isn't true. Wrestling results aren't reported in the paper, it's not some venered cultural institution, and Bret Hart isn't our Michael Jordan. Dude, I've been reading the Observer for 17 years. I know the deal. I'm not searching for fandom validation. But Meltzer has offered plenty of anecdotal stories about how wrestling is more accepted in Canada and how he is much busier doing media stuff when he goes there than he ever is here unless someone just killed their kid. That's all I'm going off of. Wasn't Bret Hart on a list of most repsected Canadians or something? That would certainly never happen here. Edit: I see the Canadian list thing was mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted May 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Per the request of JDW: "The Majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling Was Real back in the Good Old Days." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Can anyone remember exactly what Thesz said about this in Hooker? I recall that he said "as early as the 19__'s", sometime decades ago there was already widespread suspicion of wrestling being fixed, but don't remember the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Can anyone remember exactly what Thesz said about this in Hooker? I recall that he said "as early as the 19__'s", sometime decades ago there was already widespread suspicion of wrestling being fixed, but don't remember the details.Considering the widespread abuse of gambling and game fixing in baseball and professional boxing in the early 20th century, I'd have a hard time believing wrestling was clean competition. In fact, tracing worked wrestling matches would probably be as easy as tracing the origins of sports gambling. The only question is what percentage was real versus fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Considering that TIME MAGANIZE was breaking kayfabe in the '30s... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 What did Time have to say back then? Considering the widespread abuse of gambling and game fixing in baseball and professional boxing in the early 20th century, I'd have a hard time believing wrestling was clean competition. In fact, tracing worked wrestling matches would probably be as easy as tracing the origins of sports gambling. The only question is what percentage was real versus fixed.Oh, the championship matches were fixed almost right from the start of the 20th century, Thesz goes into detail about the Ed "Strangler" Lewis days and how things worked back then. I just couldn't remember what he said about the general public and how they viewed it. Certainly by the time of Gorgeous George and guys jumping off the top rope, those should've been pretty obvious signs to most folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Considering that TIME MAGANIZE was breaking kayfabe in the '30s... I forgot the details of the story, but I do remember Meltzer writing that in 1915, the New York Times talked about how wrestling was fake and gave away certain details about a tournament that took place in New York that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Fake...Working Through Wrestling’s Past: The Wrestling Perspective Newspaper Archive Project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Wow, thanx Bix, that's a fuckin' awesome site right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 http://wrestlingperspective.com/working/18...ttimes0405.html Easy match of the 18th century candidate. edit: Durrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted May 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 http://wrestlingperspective.com/working/18...ttimes0405.html Easy match of the 18th century candidate. 19th Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Wrestling pretty much has always been a fake. Bix's link hits it, and there are twice as many as those. One of the best was Gotch, after they'd cleaned out the Pacific Northwest of all the gambling money and started to get exposed, basically saying that even if it was fake he was still the champ because he said so. Wrestling storylines have been booked for ages. Muldon use to win matches in his style, and draw or lose when wrestling on another person's style. Evan Lewis did the same thing. It's similar to the old Pancrase gimmick of Smith losing "Pancrase-style" matches, but going over in Kicking Boxing matches to build up the return. Gotch's title matches with Jenkins were well booked over the course of the years, especially when you look at how they're played to rip off the marks laying bets: Gotch winning in Jenkins home town of CLE where the money was laid on Jenkins Jenkins looking strong in winning the first fall of that match to get even more money laid on Jenkins Jenkins winning in MSG when all the hype was around Gotch, and all the money was going towards Gotch making Jenkins long odds Jenkins, after getting smashes by Hack, winning the MSG rematch with Gotch when no one thought Jenkins would win... and Gotch even doing the equiv of a stretcher job finish needing to be carried back to the dressing room Gotch's matches with Beel were booked. The booking in 1919 and 1920 was strong to set up Stecher cleaning up the title picture for one consensus champ, and to lead well into Lewis chasing him to get the big win at the end of 1920. So it's not just that it was "fake". It's that what we see as pro wrestling, not just worked matches but booked storylines, has been around for about as far back as we can track things. Pro Wrestling = Fake John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Bullet points! I have to learn how to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Bullet points! I have to learn how to do that. This guy is the starting point: Also looks like you can number: Pretty cool. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Wow, I: Never Noticed That Okay, I'll stop, but I'm wondering if this feature was sneaked in when no one was looking, or if it was always there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Wow, I: Never Noticed That Okay, I'll stop, but I'm wondering if this feature was sneaked in when no one was looking, or if it was always there. It's pretty standard on a lot of the boards I frequent. I was going to answer like jdw did, but I thought you were werking him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kenta Batista Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 This mainly is heard when a discussion of a piss poor women's match occurs. I have only heard it applied to a men's contest when its Goldberg/Lesnar being discussed. The reason WHY a match was bad. " Its the crowds fault!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Fake...Working Through Wrestling’s Past: The Wrestling Perspective Newspaper Archive Project Sorry for the non-contributory post, but I too have to give thanks for the link. Awesome reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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