How highly do you regard wrestling?

[Dylan Waco]

Grew up on wrestling. First major memories are wrestling related. My two best friend growing up were fans. One got me into all the shows in town for free for years because his dad worked the gate. He quit giving a shit when he was 13 or so, though he still likes Cena, Michaels and Flair and will watch it when he's over here (he regards Jushin Liger as the best wrestler ever which I think is funny since he never saw a lick of Liger's overseas work). My other best friend started watching when he was young, but got super into it in 94 when I introduced him to Vader/WCWSN. From BATB 94 until Jan 01 we watched and recorded every single ppv at his house, took summer trips to follow around ECW, subscribed to all of the major newsletters (including the Lariat.....). I moved out of his house in Jan of 01 and into a gigantic party house, with no cable but lots of booze and acid. Being the only straight edge kid in the punk house, I spent a lot of my time breaking up fights, encouraging criminal behavior from a distance and laughing my ass off. I missed most of that years wrestling related insanity and my buddy called me the night of the last Nitro to tell me what was going on. That was the last time he ever watched a wrestling show until two years ago when I got him to watch the Rise and Fall of ECW dvd with me.

 

Now one of the my closest friends and colleagues is a huge wrestling fan who regularly advertises it in his articles and commentaries. I watch all the ppvs with him and a group of mutual friends at the local sports bar, though he doesn't really give a shit about digging up obscure shit and I think he thinks I'm nuts for being so into wrestling from other countries (keep in mind this is a guy who's work office is filled with wrestling photos and autographs).

 

Two of my three little brothers are huge fans and I talk to them about the shows once a week. I"ve sent some tapes there way over the years and one of them contributed to the Best WWE matches ever poll at SC. My youngest brother is staying with me this summer and we plan on watching a shitload of my old, unlabeled tapes. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to get some of it online as a lot of it is semi-rare or stuff I've never really seen online (Mid-Atlantic raw footage, all of Shawn Michaels TWA, tons and tons of SMW, lots of World Class tv, et.).

 

My uncle has promoted benefit shows in TN and GA. Oddly he's nowhere near the fan me or my brothers are, but he's an old school fan.

 

So yeah wrestling is pretty important to me because it's tied in to a lot of my relationships and a lot of my day to day dealings. People have paid me to write about it, I've been watching it my whole life, a lot of my friends/family are into it, et.

[ohtani's jacket]

I wouldn't say I was embarrassed at being a pro-wrestling fan, it's just a pain in the ass explaining to people how you know Japanese wrestlers from the 70s and 80s and leads to all sorts of questions like: "is Japanese wrestling famous in your country?"

 

My wife has a co-worker who's a big New Japan fan and he keeps trying to give me merchandise I don't want. Somehow he got her hooked on Tanahashi and she keeps bringing home pro-wrestling magazines despite having no interest in his work.

 

The only guy I ever watched wrestling with, I haven't seen for three years, so that's definitely a factor; but with others hobbies, I'll check the internet to figure out which movie to watch next or what album to buy, but I don't feel the urge to discuss these things. There's something about wrestling that makes it just as satisfying to discuss as it is to watch; perhaps moreso. The only other topic I devote as much time to is rugby. I guess this goes back to when I first got the internet. The first thing I looked for was wrestling news and I suppose the habit grew from there.

 

Jose and I went to a bar once and had to explain how we knew each other. That was kinda surreal.

[S.L.L.]

SLL's writeup is dead wrong. Totally missed the entire point. Ignorant to the extent of either retardation or insanity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...everyone knows that Ernest Goes to Jail is clearly the best movie of the series.

This is absolutely true, and in hindsight, I really don't know why I went with "Goes to Camp" for my analogy. My bad.

 

And I will go to my grave maintaining that Family Matters was a perfectly fine sitcom for most of it's run that suffered from guilt by association with Full House. As it spun off of that, and was basically the same type of family-friendly, life-affirming sitcom, only a billion times more bizarre and containing actual funny jokes. Well, I guess Urkel turned people off, too. Never really got what people's problem with him was. People didn't like it's Full House-ishness, but they also couldn't wrap their heads around the things that made it radically different from Full House...it was kinda like the sitcom equivalent of lucha libre in that sense, which seems somehow appropriate coming from me.

[Kronos]

And I will go to my grave maintaining that Family Matters was a perfectly fine sitcom for most of it's run that suffered from guilt by association with Full House. As it spun off of that, and was basically the same type of family-friendly, life-affirming sitcom, only a billion times more bizarre and containing actual funny jokes. Well, I guess Urkel turned people off, too. Never really got what people's problem with him was. People didn't like it's Full House-ishness, but they also couldn't wrap their heads around the things that made it radically different from Full House...it was kinda like the sitcom equivalent of lucha libre in that sense, which seems somehow appropriate coming from me.

I haven't seen the show in awhile, so I don't know how it holds up now. But I seem to think FM has not aged all that well (truthfully, what sitcoms do?) -- it has always been faaaaaaar better than FH, of course. The characters are stock, to be sure, but the formula worked. One thing I liked about it, which made it somewhat ahead of its time, was that the black family was solidly middle class. They weren't white trash like the Bundys, nor were they upper-middle class like the Cosbys. They were just relatively "normal" people like Roseanne's family (although a bit wealthier and not as abrasive, but you get the point).

 

Urkel was heavily over-exposed, especially when he started dressing in drag, etc. Like Cena, it became cool to hate him, I think, precisely because of his success. But all TV writers and actors should be so lucky as to create a character that gets over to that extent and becomes something of a pop culture icon.

[tomk]

Ernest Goes To Jail is a spectacular movie.

 

And I thin Family Matters actually ages well. Its comedy is broader than Full House and the jokes and bits are legit funny (unlike Full House which went for cute over broad laugh). It became very Urkel centric very quickly but it goes so far over the top with its Urkel centricness that you don't mind. I mean Balki was a one joke character while as Dean has explained Urkell was able to be the ideal love interest for everyone: Myrtle ( for Waldo), Stefan Urquel( for Laura), Original Gangsta Dawg (for Harriete), and Urkel (for Carl) and then there's the Urkel bot.

 

 

 

Dean did his long thing on how Urkel was able to

[Kronos]

Hmmm. Well, as I said, I haven't seen it in awhile. According to imdb, the show ran from 1989-98. I started college in 1992, and I honestly don't remember much of the show after that point. Perhaps I would appreciate the ridiculousness now (I have no problem with silly if it's done well), although I am not sure I am inclined to take the time to look into it -- hell, I have am unofficial plan to watch all of MASH in the near future, and I still need to finish MOONLIGHTING. Who has time for Family Matters?

 

 

 

This discussion reminds me a bit of the deconstruction of ARCHIE over on DVDVR.

 

I grew up in Dallas. Jim Varney was a character on Braum's ice cream commercials, as I recall. Didn't he somehow take that character and expand it into the movie franchise? Know what I mean, Verne? (By the way, I think Pauley Shore's SON-IN-LAW trumps all those Ernest films.)

[S.L.L.]

Ernest Goes To Jail is a spectacular movie.

 

And I thin Family Matters actually ages well. Its comedy is broader than Full House and the jokes and bits are legit funny (unlike Full House which went for cute over broad laugh). It became very Urkel centric very quickly but it goes so far over the top with its Urkel centricness that you don't mind. I mean Balki was a one joke character while as Dean has explained Urkell was able to be the ideal love interest for everyone: Myrtle ( for Waldo), Stefan Urquel( for Laura), Original Gangsta Dawg (for Harriete), and Urkel (for Carl) and then there's the Urkel bot.

 

 

 

Dean did his long thing on how Urkel was able to

I think Dean said that Myrtle wasn't the perfect love interest for Eddie (as he was really consistently repulsed by her), but argued that he should have been.

 

I recall someone else (not sure who) making the good point about Waldo's relationship with Maxine providing a good contrast at Urkel's (attempted) relationship with Laura: whereas Urkel's oddball behavior constantly drives away Laura, her best friend is able to see through Waldo's oddball behavior pretty quickly to the nice guy underneath, and they strike up a long-term relationship. It's kind of weird that a show that Brother Chucked a lot of characters over the years also did a very good job of managing it's secondary characters while they were kept around.

 

I'm starting to think that wrestling promoters could learn a few lessons from Family Matters.

[Resident Evil]

Hmm, I have to say I liked Family Matters better than Full House too but I can't actually say it's a better show. For guys yes. For girls, NO. The reason being is that Full House did things that strongly attracted the female viewers. I guarantee you that Full House meant a ton more to females than Family Matters did to guys and when you factor that into the overall equation of better show, one has to give it to Full House.

[Bob Morris]

The problem with Urkel and why people started turning on him, I would argue, is that he became the equivalent of Fonz on Happy Days. He was a character that had his charm and worked well as somebody to bounce lines off, and on occassion would be fine as the center of attention, but you couldn't build the show solely around him.

 

Of course, with Fonz, it could be argued he needed to be the main guy after Ron Howard left Happy Days, thus Richie Cunningham was out of the picture. But if you were to look at Happy Days episodes, the "Fonz-centric" era tends to be the low point of the series.

 

It wasn't always the case with FM when Urkel got a larger role... there were the episodes in which Urkel worked as the central character, given the plot line, but other times it didn't work. But in earlier episodes where Urkel wasn't always the center of attention, I would say that was when FM had its best work.

 

Wrestling is somewhat similar in that standpoint. If anybody qualifies as the equivalent of Fonz and Urkel in pro wrestling, it's Hacksaw Jim Duggan: Loved in a secondary role, but if made the center of attention too much, it doesn't work as well.

[goodhelmet]

Wrestling is somewhat similar in that standpoint. If anybody qualifies as the equivalent of Fonz and Urkel in pro wrestling, it's Hacksaw Jim Duggan in WWF: Loved in a secondary role, but if made the center of attention too much, it doesn't work as well.

Sorry, had to edit this. I think the Mid South set proved Duggan was pretty damn great as being the main ass kicker.

[S.L.L.]

The problem with Urkel and why people started turning on him, I would argue, is that he became the equivalent of Fonz on Happy Days. He was a character that had his charm and worked well as somebody to bounce lines off, and on occassion would be fine as the center of attention, but you couldn't build the show solely around him.

 

Of course, with Fonz, it could be argued he needed to be the main guy after Ron Howard left Happy Days, thus Richie Cunningham was out of the picture. But if you were to look at Happy Days episodes, the "Fonz-centric" era tends to be the low point of the series.

 

It wasn't always the case with FM when Urkel got a larger role... there were the episodes in which Urkel worked as the central character, given the plot line, but other times it didn't work. But in earlier episodes where Urkel wasn't always the center of attention, I would say that was when FM had its best work.

 

Wrestling is somewhat similar in that standpoint. If anybody qualifies as the equivalent of Fonz and Urkel in pro wrestling, it's Hacksaw Jim Duggan: Loved in a secondary role, but if made the center of attention too much, it doesn't work as well.

The thing is, I don't know when exactly it reached that point.

 

I'd argue that Family Matters was at it's best when it had a similar dynamic to Happy Days, i.e. it was clear that one guy was the big attraction of the show (Fonz/Urkel), even though it was also clear that someone else was the true main character (Richie/Carl). But really, both shows were like that for most of their run. But I can't pinpoint when Family Matters lost that dynamic. It's easy to pinpoint on Happy Days: Richie left the show. Family Matters threw a lot of secondary characters by the wayside, but the core group of characters was always there, and most episodes maintained the "Two Lines, No Waiting" formula: Carl, Eddie, and Urkel go ice fishing while Judy is jealous of the attention Richie gets; Carl is tormented on the one-year anniversary of a hostage situation gone wrong while Urkel tries to get Laura tickets to a Johnny Gill concert; Urkel teams up with Grandmama against Eddie in a basketball tournament while Carl and Harriet argue over Carl giving Laura a later curfew than Harriet said she could have; etc. They weren't all like that of course, and the show changed a lot to accommodate Urkel's wacky sci-fi antics, but even when he was given the limelight, they did an admirable job of keeping all the major characters involved or busy with their own stories.

[jdw]

How highly do you regard wrestling?

Not highly at all. But that's not inconsistent with how I regard most of my hobbies.

 

Realtive to family, loved ones and friends, they're not really something to regard highly.

 

Doesn't mean that hobbies can't be a boatload of fun.

 

John

[Guest MarkGotch]

I hold wrestling in very high regard. I've been training on and off at a school in Toronto and I am almost obsessed with understanding the lost art form of professional wrestling. My thoughts on wrestling today are a lot of what Death from Above said in post #7. I agree with the topic author that wrestling is unworthy of a high level of criticism but that is only because the quality has degraded so much since the 70s, 80s, and early 90s (IMO). I honestly believe that wrestling would be the biggest thing on the planet if the performers and people running it were doing a better job. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone in the wrestling business and I respect anyone who has ever had even one match because even that is very hard to accomplish. It just seems to me like the majority of people in the wrestling business are on auto pilot. Michael Jordan said he was still learning his very last game in the NBA, but a lot of wrestlers almost seem to quit learning and feel as though they have mastered it once they are at the level of putting on matches... and then they wonder why WWE isnt knocking down their door. Thats the main difference to me, but its hard because you dont get paid anything to wrestle on the indies but millions to play more established sports.

[MikeCampbell]

For me personally, I've found wrestling fandom to be a bit like investing, in that you get what you put in. And my years of fandom in various ways, from buying action figures as a child, to obsessively collecting and reading PWI and the like during my teens years, and tape collecting, is starting to pay off for me in various ways.

 

I've met some great guys and made some good friends thanks to wrestling. Hell, I met my best friend because I was wearing a Mankind T-shirt when I ran to the grocery store for something and he saw me the parking lot and just said "hey, nice shirt." Five years later, he was the best man in my wedding.

 

I've also been able to somewhat be involved in the business without actually having trained (and having no desire to). I've been lucky enough to have several face to face conversations with Colin Delaney. With discussions varying from famous Olsen Twins promos in Chikara to the future of his use of Colin Olsen as his ring name and he desire to hopefully go back to the WWE.

 

This past Saturday night I was with my sister in law in Binghamton, NY at a show, waiting for the doors to open, and one of the ring crew guys comes up to me and says that Josh (promoter/booker/wrestler) saw I was here and wanted to talk to me. All he wanted to do was bullshit a bit, he asked how I liked his last show and the booking. Then he started venting about Slyck Wagner Brown complaining that doing an angle where heels handcuffed him would make his character look weak. This turned into us debating how who the real marks are, and talking about things like Bret refusing to put over Shawn in Montreal and Thesz always refusing to put over Buddy Rogers as examples.

 

While I certainly think I'm lucky to have such experiences, I've also had headaches and situations that made me hate being a fan at times. The most recent was at Denny's, of all places, at like 1:00 am after a night out with the Mrs. and some friends. We happen to see a few local indy guys walk in, a couple of our friends literally start to squeal with excitement and want to do things like start applauding. My position was that they were probably tired and sore after wrestling and to leave them alone, and the guys couldn't believe I was so indifferent about the whole thing.

[WrestlingPower]

I think people are struggling with the term "high regard". I'm not really sure that I care to hold wrestling or the business of wrestling to a moral compass, but since we're comparing where we hold wrestling in relation to our other hobbies, it is of the "highest regard". Most people here have touched on their levels of obsession. I've been a fan of this non-stop for 25 years, taken to a new level when I was introduced to the sheets almost 20 years ago. Between attending live shows from every company imaginable in the US and Japan, collecting merchandise, autographs, photos, videos, doing public access TV shows, now podcasts, reading, writing and analyzing wrestling, it is quite the obsession. I have too many good memories and time invested to turn back now. Despite all the negative things that may have gone on and the sliminess of the business itself, I think most of us would admit we can't get enough. In some ways my fandom is at an all-time low between only actually watching maybe 2-3 hours a week and being mostly oblivious to the mainstream products, I'm in it so deep between reading, listening, dubbing, cataloging, etc., etc. that I can still spend virtually an entire weekend on nothing but wrestling without getting bored.

 

I do feel I need to touch on something mentioned above, as good as the online community is, I feel you do need to connect with people either verbally or in person to share the love. I've lost track of how many times I've left a "dorkfest" with Dean Rasmussen, regardless of how good or bad what we watched was, without feeling my fire for wrestling re-stoked. It's like I need that validation that there is still good stuff out there to enjoy without feeling like you're some dork in your mom's basement with a secret obsession. Even the whole tape trading thing, I think for some (hopefully most) of us, it was a way to share our interests with other fans first and foremost before it ever turned into a business.