Who Is Better?

[El-P]

I'm watching him right now, and quite frankly, Luger in 89 was better in every aspect than HHH ever was. I'm talking work, big matches and interviews. HHH has been ridiculously overrated for ever at this point, it would be time for people to realize this guy was not nearly as good as Shane Douglas, DDP or Jarrett who got shit on for years. He's been a mediocre worker most of his career, with a few *good* peaks. Luger has sucked for a long time, but at least he sucked in short matches, not in overlong self-conscious so-called "epics". Luger sucking for long stretches and HHH being dull as dirt in long matches he had no business working is just about equal to me. Plus Luger has had some fun resurgences over the years, such as the great 96 period teaming with Sting (and overall, the first year of his comeback to WCW), and the Total Package gimmick with Liz at the end of WCW. HHH has been the same awful dull as dirt character for ever and he's a shitty heel. He's an even shittier babyface. Luger was very efficient both as a face and as a heel. Constant switching never kept him from being over with the WCW crowd. Both peaked early, HHH during the Hunter days in about 96-97, and Luger in 89, but Luger, despite having the biggest "suck" period of the two, also has the best peak, by a huge margin, and the best matches.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the hell out of Luger now, especially since the heel turn.

[Resident Evil]

Inspired by the DVDVR thread :

 

Lex Luger or HHH ?

At his peaks, Luger is better. I was one of the first people to be singing his 89 work:) Always been a big fan. Overall though, I have to go with HHH.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not even sure Luger ever really "sucked" in the way we usually use that term. He was definitely boring and lame as fuck during his WWF run but do I think he was awful? Going from memory no. I actually liked him for big chunks of 96, 97 and even 99 though admittedly none of that work is blowaway great or even close. Trying to think of what he was doing in 98. Anyway I would say there is enough from 88-92 that is clearly strong to put him above HHH by a very comfortable margin.

[Dylan Waco]

Eddy Guerrero or Rey Mysterio?

 

Another real tough one. I think the best case for Eddy is that he was more versatile than Rey. While Rey has had two peaks, working two different styles very effectively, Eddy was a guy that could pretty much work whatever style or role a match called for at the moment. In 97 he worked clean babyface, conflicted babyface, sneaky heel, cowardly heel and vicious heel against a variety of opponents all well. He had a set of bumps, ring movements, techniques, etc. for each role and worked them perfectly depending on the circumstances. Rey is a better babyface now than Eddy ever was, but he doesn't have that depth and probably never will. On the other hand Eddy was less consistent - largely because of drug use - so there is that. Still I'll go with Eddy albeit slightly.

Was talking about this the other night, and at this point I would have to go with Rey. His 09 and 2010 runs were too fucking good. Versatility helps Eddy but when Rey has twice as many great years that has to matter for something.

[El-P]

In 98 he had a few good matches with Savage at the beginning of the year, then two killer matches with Bret Hart during the Fall when Bret was working his hypocritical jerkoff US champ gimmick. The matches they should have had in WWF for the title.

[Mad Dog]

I've got some:

 

Road Warriors or Demolition

 

Eaton/Condrey or Eaton/Lane

 

Steiner Brothers or British Bulldogs

 

Mil Mascaras or Konnan

[EricR]

Konnan is a potential worst in-ring of all-time candidate, so that one should be easy.

[Mad Dog]

Saying Konnan's worst all time puts him in the company of guys like Nathan Jones, Brutus Beefcake and Heidenreich. He may not be good but he's certainly a more capable inring guy than any of those three. Besides, he was more lazy and out of shape than anything. If you go back to his AAA work, he's not great but he's in shape and capable.

[El-P]

I agree about Konnan being one of the all-time worse. Man this guy was worthless 99% of the time, he sucked the life out of good workers he was with. Brutus Beefcake was a better worker than Konnan.

 

Road Warriors, easily, I've said all I had to say about Demos a few weeks ago. Better in every aspect, look, work, matches, promos, drawing power.

 

Eaton/Condrey : I don't want to hammer on the guy, but really, the more I watch Lane, the closest he gets to "not very good" category. Condrey is way more solid.

[Dylan Waco]

A couple of comparisons that I think will be interesting for people to consider once the AWA, ECW, Portland and SMW Sets drop (I know this could be a while of course), but are worth discussing now:

 

Rick Martel or Curt Hennig?

 

Mikey Whipwreck or Spike Dudley?

 

Tracy Smothers or Chris Candido/Little Guido or Chris Candido?

 

Sabu or Abdullah The Butcher? (probably seems like a weird comp, but I'll explain later)

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Buddy Rose?

 

Tajiri or 2 Cold Scorpio?

 

Some others that may be worth talking about based on recent sets that have dropped or at the very least sets that have dropped sense this thread was shelved:

 

Ricky Fuyuki or Hoshino?

 

Michael Hayes or Kerry Von Erich?

 

Masa Saito or Yoshiaki Yatsu?

 

Tatsumi Fujinami or Jumbo Tsuruta?

 

And a few more based on things I have watched or things that have happened in the wrestling World over the last two years:

 

Dick Togo or Great Sasuke?

 

Ron Garvin or Greg Valentine?

 

Christian or CM Punk?

[Mad Dog]

Rick Martel or Curt Hennig: Hennig. I think Martel was a great tag team worker but I have always felt he was lacking something as a singles wrestler. Hennig on the other hand essentially carried the AWA through 87 and 88 despite the complete absence in the promotion. If you watch the old shows on ESPN Classics you can just see he was head and shoulders above everyone else in the promotion. He then had a successful run in the WWF as a top heel for several years and turned that into a successful manager run. Also, it tends to get understated but IMO he was tag team of the year with Barry Windham in 1999. That team was just astonishing in how quickly they meshed and I always felt they had a little something more than Benoit/Malenko and Raven/Saturn.

 

Mikey Whipwreck or Spike Dudley: I don't like either guy that much but I'll take Whipwreck. I found Whipwreck to be entertaining in the ring. I've never found Spike Dudley entertaining in the slightest.

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Buddy Rose: Bockwinkel. He was the only man that made the AWA Title seem like a big deal and his run from the late 70s to the mid 80s as champ was really great. I bought the Wrestling Gold set several years ago and he had three or four legit great matches on there. He had a really good match with Brody on there, a good match with Lawler and he carried a really green rookie Magnum TA to a match. I always watched a Youtube match from the early 90s from the UWF where he had a really solid match with Billy Robinson and he was probably pushing 60 at the time. I would count Bockwinkel as a genetic freak that actually got better the older he got.

 

Michael Hayes or Kerry Von Erich: I've watched a lot of WCCW the last 5 years. I understand why David and Kevin were over and consider them to be good workers for the most part. Kerry... what to say about Kerry. Kerry could go out there and not fuck up and let a superior worker make him look good. That's about all I can really say about him. Hayes, I think Hayes was horribly boring in the ring when he wasn't teaming with Gordy/Roberts. He could be a good brawler on occasion. Hayes could talk his ass off though. I remember when Brody first showed up to team with Kerry against the Freebirds and Hayes cut this fucking brilliant promo where he was nearly in tears he was so afraid of Brody. Despite being boring in the ring, I think he was far more capable in the ring than Kerry was.

 

Dick Togo or Great Sasuke: Dick Togo by a mile. Sasuke was spectacular in the ring but when I think of Sasuke, I think of him blowing big spots in big situations. I think of him blowing the spot against Liger in the Super J Cup. I think of him cracking his skull open in the J Crown. I think Togo has actually gotten better since he's gotten away from M-Pro.

[El-P]

Rick Martel or Curt Hennig?

Martel in a walk. Hennig is way overrated. Granted, I'm not very familiar with either AWA work, but the few I've seen, Martel blows Hennig away. The best thing about Hennig was the Mr. Perfect's gimmick. After his prime Hennig quickly got worthless, while Martel in 1998 demonstrated he was still solid as hell.

 

Mikey Whipwreck or Spike Dudley?

Whipreck. I can find 200 wrestler better than Spike Dudley.

 

Tracy Smothers or Chris Candido/Little Guido or Chris Candido?

Candido over both. Not seen much SMW though, so I guess I have some large chunks of Smothers/Candido to watch.

 

Sabu or Abdullah The Butcher? (probably seems like a weird comp, but I'll explain later)

Yes, it's a weird comp, as Sabu didn't do the "bleed the face" routine very long. Sabu, in a walk. At the end of my ECW watch, I wasn't tired of Sabu, he's a guy who went way up in my book.

 

Tajiri or 2 Cold Scorpio?

Hard choice. I may give the edge to Tajiri, but I have years of unwatched WCW stuff involving Scorpio. Both were pretty great.

 

Michael Hayes or Kerry Von Erich?

From what I've seen, Kerry gets the nod. Although Hayes is not bad.

 

Masa Saito or Yoshiaki Yatsu?

I like Saito quite a bit, but I haven't seen much of his prime. Yatus in his prime was awesome, he gets the nod.

 

Tatsumi Fujinami or Jumbo Tsuruta?

I like Fuji more than most, but Jumbo is just a top 3 greatest wrestler ever.

 

Dick Togo or Great Sasuke?

Judging from the 90's only, Togo. I doubt things got reversed.

 

Ron Garvin or Greg Valentine?

Valentine.

[Cox]

Dylan (or anybody else), interested in hearing your thoughts on this one:

 

Dirty White Boy or Tracy Smothers?

[Mad Dog]

Martel in a walk. Hennig is way overrated. Granted, I'm not very familiar with either AWA work, but the few I've seen, Martel blows Hennig away. The best thing about Hennig was the Mr. Perfect's gimmick. After his prime Hennig quickly got worthless, while Martel in 1998 demonstrated he was still solid as hell.

Your opinion of Hennig will change greatly if you watch more AWA footage. Do you get ESPN Classics? They constantly play AWA shows. Hennig was great as champ. They literally had no one for him to wrestle and he was having watchable matches with absolute dogshit in the ring a lot of weeks and having some pretty good matches when he got in there with Greg or Wahoo.

 

Martel had a good 98 but he really only wrestled maybe 7 or 8 times on television. Hennig did have a good run with Barry Windham in 1999.

[Dylan Waco]

Answering my own questions:

 

Rick Martel or Curt Hennig?

 

This is a pretty easy comp to make because here you have guys that worked in a lot of the same places and in similar roles.

 

Anyway looking at this across the board:

 

Portland

 

Martel and Hennig both worked there and were both great there very early in their careers. Martel's matches against Buddy may have been better than Hennig's matches with Buddy, but Hennig's non-Buddy matches may have been better. One thing I do think is that at this point Martel was better working long, and Hennig was better as a sprint worker. That would change some over time, though I don't think Martel ever got really good at working shorter, tight matches the way Hennig could. I would probably call this a "tie."

 

AWA

 

This is tough because it depends on what you want to include. I think there is no question that Martel was better as the companies anchor, but that had a lot to do with the decline of the AWA and the position the company was in by the time Hennig got the belt. If you include Martel's international defenses I think his case gets stronger, but without those I would go with Hennig for sure, and even with them.... Martel had great matches with Jimmy Garvin, Brad Rheingans, Bock, Jumbo, Race (actually this was after he lost the title from memory), Choshu and Flair during his reign and it is hard to argue against them. Having said that Hennig's babyface work before he won the title was really great. He was excellent in tags, had far better offense back then (though Martel's was better), worked FAR stiffer than Martel, and was a considerably better bumper. Everyone knows about the great Bockwinkel series (and those matches hold up VERY well in my view), but he also had a pair of excellent matches with Hansen prior to winning the belt in 86 and after the heel turn had a run of defenses (and after he lost the belt matches) with guys like Greg Gagne, Wahoo, Lawler, and DJ Peterson that I would have absolutely no problem calling great. To be fair to Martel his run was shorter than Curt's but I still think Curt showed himself to be far more versatile here than Martel did. Pretty close, but I would rate Curt over Martel. Just a lot more you can point to to be honest.

 

WWF

 

Totally disagree with Jerome here that the best thing that happened to Hennig was Mr. Perfect. From a business/making money standpoint sure. From a worker standpoint it killed him dead and was so obviously the deathblow to him as a great in ring talent that it's actually a point I think is not even debatable if you have seen the footage I have. Will and I have talked about this at length and he theorizes that Hennig was just made to be a babyface. It's hard to argue against that since Hennig is an unbelievably great babyface in both the AWA and Portland. The only problem with that theory is that his initial heel turn in the AWA was brilliant as well and his work MAY have even IMPROVED during that period. Also the Mr. Perfect character was definitely a lot of fun. The problem is that in the ring the Perfect character was totally lowest common denominator wrestling, all about bumps and one or two offense moves. The Bret matches are good but overrated. I like the Garvin match for what it is but it's not something that even borders on being very good, let alone great. He was fun in the tag with Poffo v. Hogan and Warrior from SNME. I liked at least one of his matches v. Tito and the Doink match from Raw in 93 (which honestly comes across as a Doink carry job in hindsight). Other than that I can't think of a thing he did that stands out. His offense was garbage, he seemed to revert back to being FAR better in short matches though even then he was a shell of his former self, he just didn't seem to give too shits about anything other than taking huge bumps. I don't blame him really, but when I think of guys the WWF killed Hennig is at the top of the list. He wasn't awful there, but he was really middling given his talent and that is bad enough.

 

Martel is tough to peg. He was never used in an ideal situation, but when he was given chances I thought he looked better than Hennig. Strike Force was a good team - in some ways better than any other team in the WWF at the time - but they don't really have a lot of matches you can point to as worth going out of your way to see. "The Model" gimmick was silly but worked in the context of the WWF at the time and honestly the Jake feud was more memorable and interesting to me than anything the Mr. Perfect character did. His matches with Hall and Savage were good showings and honestly I like his draw v. Bret better than Hennig's draw v. Bret and think Martel was a lot better in the match than Hennig was in his. It seems strange to say, but I actually would rate Martel's WWF work over Hennig's.

 

Post-Prime

 

Hennig had some pretty shitty post-prime stuff in WCW, but at least partially redeemed himself with the West Texas Rednecks where I would call him "pretty good" though certainly not great. His Hogan match from the XWF and late WWF return were probably better than they should have been but not memorable in any way.

 

Martel only has a few months of post-prime work that you can really point and it has been heavily mythologized. I didn't find that there was anything approaching "great" in his brief WCW run, but what there was was a guy who could obviously still go and almost certainly would have hit "great" if he hadn't gotten hurt. He was the best guy in every match he had and the Booker T stuff is at the very least worth watching.

 

It's really tough to say, but overall I think I would go with Hennig by the slimmest of margins for two reasons:

 

1. Hennig was a better heel than Martel by a fairly wide margin and they were no worse than equals as babyfaces.

2. Hennig's ability to work big epic matches eventually equaled Martel's, whereas I don't think Martel ever got as good at working balls to the wall sprints.

 

Having said that I have not seen much of Martel's Montreal run and if that turns out to be as good as the rest of his stuff I could see flip flopping on this pretty easily.

 

Mikey Whipwreck or Spike Dudley?

 

I actually think this might be the hardest one for me personally. Having watched all the ECW stuff these were two of the real standouts.

 

Arguments for Spike:

 

Better tag wrestler, to the point where I would say he may have been the late 90's version of Marty Jannetty in the sense that you could plug him in with anyone and you automatically had a good tag team. The Mikey tag team was excellent. The Bubba tag team was excellent. The Balls tag team was at worst "very good" and for the styling they were working was arguably excellent. When paired up in one night makeshift teams with guys like Dreamer or Tajiri things worked perfectly without a hitch. Everyone of those teams had a different dynamic and worked differently Spike worked differently with all of those partners to his credit. Tying in with this I also think he was a much better FIP than Mikey.

 

Crazier high spots/bigger bumper. That may or may not be a plus I guess depending on how you look at it, but in the context of ECW I think it's a plus. Was willing to take insane risks with his body on dives and on bumps. Mikey was no slouch here but not even in Spike's league really.

 

His "worst" is better than Mikey's "worst." I don't hate 94 Mikey and I actually like the Paul Lauria stuff, but Spike doesn't have anything during his ECW run that is that weak and even if you want to extend beyond to WWF/TNA stuff I don't know that he does.

 

Arguments For Mikey:

 

Better character. I like Spike fine as a character but the evolution of Mikey and his gimmick of reluctant backyarder dragged into dangerous setting by insecurities about disappointing people was pretty awesome and was something he constantly got over in the ring. I like Mikey a good bit post-96, but his character had morphed into something far less compelling by that point. Still at it's peak it was something really different and was an active ingredient in his matches that always "worked."

 

Better singles wrestler AND better "best" matches. I love Spike but his best matches are tags, or multi-mans. Mikey's best stuff are singles matches and often times he is having a career performance on the same night someone else is having a career performance which I don't think is a coincidence. Without even the tiniest exaggeration you could make the case that he was the best opponent of Candido, Sabu, Lynn, Credible, Douglas and Steve Richards. In the case of the Douglas, Sabu and Richards matches we are talking about series with multiple GREAT matches. Neither Richards, nor Candido had matches anywhere close to as good with anyone else in the company and the only guy who hit the same level with Douglas was Scorpio.

 

I'm not sure either guy did enough good or bad outside the context of ECW to really hurt or help there case though a part of me thinks I'm forgetting something in Spike's WWF run.

 

Overall I am going to say Mikey. It's really close, but what hurts Spike is that he doesn't have the great singles matches that Mikey has. I liked his Taz match, his occasional workrate matches were always good, he had a strong match with Sabu, and I enjoyed the series with Axl, Bam Bam, and Mike Awesome, but I'm not sure any of those matches would make Mikey's top five.

 

Tracy Smothers or Chris Candido/Little Guido or Chris Candido?

 

Before watching all the ECW and SMW footage I almost certainly would have said Candido over both. After watching it all I think Smothers was easily better than Candido and I am really struggling to find a good reason to rate Candido over Guido.

 

I loved Candido for years but when you go back and watch the footage it is almost amazing how little he has in terms of high quality matches. His peak year was 94 in SMW where he and Smothers had the best series in the history of the promotion, he carried a good tag team with Brian Lee, and he had some strong brawls with Cactus. He also looked good when he first came into ECW in late 96 and early 97. But the longer he stayed the less motivated he appeared and the less interesting his matches were. He always had good offense, and he could be good for some fun stock bumps but when combing through stuff I kept waiting for the Candido matches that were going to floor me. Going into the project I had assumed he would be THE guy with the treasure trove. Coming out it's evident the matches don't exist. Oddly enough his best two singles matches in the company where probably with Mikey and Spike and in both matches he looked like the "least" of the parties involved (in fact in the Spike match he botches the finish badly). He does have some fun tags with Storm, and at least one great one, but much of that is disappointing as well. He's definitely a case of a guy where the whole is drastically LESS than the sum of the parts.

 

As I said stacked up to Tracy it's not even close. Smothers was in three legitimately great tag teams that worked three different styles. His best matches with the Pistols/Southern Boys, best matches with the Thugz and best matches with the FBI are all better than any matches Candido has ever been in - excluding ones that included Smothers! When you look at his singles run you've got the series with Candido with both guys looking great, but then you can point to Tracy carrying scrubs and terrible wrestlers like Bryant Anderson and Bruiser Bedlam. You can point his great series with DWB from SMW. You can point to his ECW matches with Sabu, Kanemura, Tanaka and Al Snow (Will will love that last one). You start bringing in Tracy's post-ECW independent stuff and the gap really widens. Smothers was simple better at adapting his style and schtick to his surrounds then Candido, who never got anything close to the most out of his talent. Smothers smokes him.

 

In the case of Guido the only real argument I can see using against him is offense - Candido's was more varied, looked better for the most part, and was flashier. Other than that Guido is at least his equal across the board. FBI was a better tag team than any tag team Candido worked in and Guido was very good in all three versions of the unit (four if you count the Sal E tag matches). Candido was a fun bumper, but Guido was a bump freak that was no worse than being on Candido's level, and was probably better. Guido's selling was excellent when it needed to be. His psych was good and in fact was STRONGER than Candido's in ECW (I think the Tajiri series really proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt and the FBI tags are just confirmation). In terms of best matches, you could argue that the Smothers v. Candido series from SMW was better than Guido's series v. Tajiri but it's very close. The problem is that after the first layer Candido gets left in the dust. Aside from the one FBI match teaming with Storm that is a wash for obvious reasons, the Mikey match and maybe the best of the brawls with Cactus in SMW, Candido doesn't have anything near the best of the Guido triple threat matches, or matches v. Crazy, or the tag with JT v. Bubba/Spike, or the better FBI tags (v. Elims, v. Balls/Axl, v. Dreamer/Spike, v. Meanie/Nova). The issue of depth is heavily in Guido's favor AND he was far more consistent in general. If I told me I would have said this two years ago I never would have believed you, but Guido was better than Candido.

 

Sabu or Abdullah The Butcher? (probably seems like a weird comp, but I'll explain later)

 

To me these are the two guys I always think of when I think of guys that people are into because of their "aura." With both of these guys it is all about buying into the character, the craziness of what is going on, and ignoring some of the obvious weaknesses and flaws one will find in both wrestlers.

 

For me Sabu probably had the better matches and when I first saw him I was blown away, but I really prefer Abby. There is a connection there based on authentic terror I felt as a child that I don't have with Sabu. It seems weird to say this, but I would not blink to see someone with Abby on their top 100 wrestlers of all time list, but Sabu would seem totally bizarre on such a list to me. It's a blindspot I can't full explain and might even be a thread topic in and of itself.

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Buddy Rose?

 

To me the answer is Buddy Rose, but it deserves a small qualification - we really don't have a complete look at athletic peak Bockwinkel. It is fucking insane to think about how good Bockwinkel was as old as he was in the mid/late 80's. In the late 70's/early 80's he is one of a handful of guys that I would rate near Rose's level (Terry Funk, Tatsumi Fujinami, Flair, Backlund and maybe Jumbo would be the others). The big difference to me is that Bock had boring matches from time to time - Buddy didn't. Ever. To me Buddy is not only a tremendously versatile wrestler, but he's a guy who during his best run (77-86) never really had a match that was disappointing or lacking to me. I could see arguing that Bockwinkel's best stuff was better - his Hennig matches hold up really well, I love the Jumbo match from the AJPW Set and there is a Wahoo match that is going to floor people once the AWA Set comes out - but I'm not sure I would buy it and more to the point I just don't think he was as consistently compelling as Buddy.

 

Having said that Bock was an underrated brawler, a very underrated tag worker (forget the Stevens team, his team with Saito was awesome) and a guy who could work all speeds in a convincing fashion. He wasn't the god of rope running spots that Buddy was, his bumping wasn't as big time and his schitck wasn't as good but he was far from weak in any of those categories. He did have weird quirks in his longer matches where he would dip in and out of control segments for short periods which you never see out of Buddy. But that may have been a stylistic issue in the AWA where the psychology was a bit different from other territories.

 

Honestly I could almost talk myself into rating Bock over Buddy if not for the fact that in their comparable peak runs I can't think of a single year where the footage available definitely points to Bock being better. Maybe 85 actually but I can't remember what Bock did that year and that is a pretty big hole in footage from Buddy IIRC. Hell even in 86 when Bock had the Hennig matches, Rose had the series with he and Somers v. The Midnight Rockers and their secondary matches that year would be comparable quality too.

 

Bottom line is that from 78 (77 maybe even)-83 you could make a strong case that Buddy was the best in the World. Bock was excellent during the same stretch, but feels more like a guy chasing Buddy for that designation, then a guy equaling Buddy, even if he was on the bigger stage.

 

Tajiri or 2 Cold Scorpio?

 

To me this is one you have to break down into ECW and Non-ECW.

 

Non-ECW I think you have to go with Scorpio. Granted I haven't seen any of Tajiri's BJW run in years and Flash Funk was a bust (though he had some underrated matches while flopping), but Tajiri never had anything as good as Scorp's 93 in WCW. I liked the Eddy tag team a lot and he had some other fun matches with the WWF. But Scorp had the Windham matches, the really underrated tag team with Bagwell who had good matches against the Nasties, The Hollywood Blondes (there best match as a unit ever actually) and the match v. Benoit and Eaton. Scorp also had the really great Benoit ppv match that year. On top of that Scorp's stuff in NOAH was really good and when he has popped up in indies in recent years he has looked good more often than not, whereas Tajiri's Smash stuff has been mostly unwatchable (also Tajiri had the worst non-comedy Dick Togo singles match of last year which is depressing really).

 

Within ECW it is way tougher. There are plusses for both guys. The big plus for Scorp is that his best matches were more developed for the most part and had an epic and escalating feel that the best Tajiri matches couldn't quite equal. Scorp just had a good way of building his matches and while Tajiri had matches that built great they were not as steady in the evolutionary sense as Scorp's best stuff.

 

The big plus for Tajiri is that he was more consistent and never really disappointed me. I find the notion that Scorp sucked during his second run to be a total myth. He had great matches then too. Having said that his 95 run does have some flat matches and there is the Tanaka match at the Arena that is rightfully regarded as a major letdown. Tajiri was pretty much "on" every night and was never in a match that I didn't find entertaining regardless of opponent. In fact I don't know if I've ever seen a wrestler as consistently good night in and night out as Tajiri was for his entire two year ECW run.

 

Tajiri definitely had more good matches in the promotion, but I'm not sure he had more great matches. If you stack the top five from each guy next to each other they would probably look like this:

 

Tajiri - The two best Mexican Death Matches v. Crazy, the Corino match from HH 2000, the Guido match from HH 99, and maybe the best of the Crazy v. Guido v. Tajiri three-ways (though it should be noted that there are several other matches that would be arguable and I am not at all committed to that as his top five).

 

Scorpio - The Douglas match from a Matter of Respect, the best of the Sabu matches, the best Rob Van Dam match, the 96 Doug Furnas match, and maybe the Bubba Dudley match (too lazy to look up dates here, and even less wedded to this than the Tajiri list).

 

Head-to-head that is really even and the point is that you could shuffle the deck and have the same "problem." On the peak end these were clearly the best two guys in ECW history, but there peaks were in much different contexts for the company.

 

If forced to choose on the ECW front I would take Tajiri. With the best matches being too close to call, I'll take the guy who I legitimately believe was the best in the World for two years (99 and 00), and who never left me feeling let down. Scorp only did that a handful of times, but that is enough to give Tajiri the nod for "best guy in ECW history."

 

It is not enough to put him over Scorpio career v. career though. Scorp is as close as it gets judging by ECW and better judging by non-ECW - unless someone can convince me there is some BJW Tajiri I really need to see.

 

Ricky Fuyuki or Hoshino?

 

I seem to have liked Fuyuki on the AJPW Set WAY more than anyone else. In fact I thought he was the best guy in the promotion in 88 which sort of sparked this comparison in my head. The other thing that sparked it was the fact that these are the two guys that really stood out as "holy shit I can't believe this guy is so good" dudes from the respective 80's sets they were featured on.

 

Anyway if this were a peak v. peak argument I would lean toward Fuyuki. He was just an incredible talent. In the 88 tags I really think he was clearly better than Kawada and I'm a guy who thinks Kawada is a top three wrestler of all time. To me he combined the best elements of Ricky Morton and Pat Tanaka and dumped them into an AJPW context. Super impactful, really fun offense, dynamic "full speed" wrestler, quality bumper and really excellent at selling. The matches built around his selling are his best performances to me and make him stand out as more than just another 80's "flash" tag worker.

 

Career v. career I think I might go with Hoshino, but I'm trying to remember when Fuyuki fizzled out. Anyhow, Hoshino was second only to Fujiwara and Choshu on the NJPW Set when it came to the "business is about to pick up" feel that hit every time he got into the ring. Really big bumper, awesome punch flurries, cool offense, great fire. Was as good as a spunky underdog working underneath against bigger men as he was a comedy guy scrambling from Andre as he was a grizzled old man trying to beat the shit out of Liger. Really you can't go wrong with either guy.

 

Michael Hayes or Kerry Von Erich?

 

I used to fucking hate Kerry and for years I bought into the like that Hayes couldn't work. Now I like Kerry and I know for a fact that it's a lie that Hayes couldn't work.

 

On the World Class set I really thought Hayes was the star and nothing is going to change my mind on that. I thought he was as good a babyface as he was a heel. Even in otherwise shit matches his babyface symp act was compelling, or his douchey heeling was compelling. He had a wild offensive attack, that included some cool signature spots and some stiff strikes. He was a master of schtick, but also the God of the "burst of energy" match. There were three Hayes matches under ten minutes in my top ten. You get the feeling he would have been incredible in a place like ECW where fucking with the crowd and working quick sprints was the rule.

 

Hayes run elsewhere was good too. I have been very surprised by his AWA run. Historically the Birds in the AWA have been treated as a blip that didn't really work in Verne's World. The truth is they were extremely over as heels and Hayes schtick and mannerisms were a great fit up there as well. They will have at least a few matches on the AWA Set despite a short run, and it's theoretically possible that some of his babyface tag matches with Steve Cox where Hayes is the king of apron work and firing up a crowd will make the set too. It's also worth noting that his WCW run includes the really good match with Luger and the New Freebirds with Garvin were FAR better than they are often given credit for.

 

Kerry is a guy that is often regarded as a good piece of luggage but there gets to be a point when someone has so many good matches that the "he was carried" line doesn't make any sense. The Flair matches weren't just good because of Flair. Neither was the classic with Jumbo. Nor were the brawls with Hayes or the great matches with Lawler. Kerry's high end work is so strong that I think you could make a strong case that he was in a top five match from WCCW, AWA, and AJPW. I don't think a piece of luggage can do that.

 

I love Hayes but it's hard to picture him going long the way Kerry could. It's not that he doesn't have the tricks, but I'm not sure he could fill the gaps of a lengthy match as well as Kerry could. In a mythical World a Michael Hayes World Title run is interesting to think about but I'm not sure how it would have come off.

 

Though I prefer Hayes on the Texas Set, I find it hard to argue against the peak Kerry matches even if they are against three guys that are arguable top ten guys of all time. On the other hand I feel like Hayes was effective in more settings and I feel like there is more depth to Hayes 82-92 than there is to Kerry's 82-92.

 

I'll go with Hayes by the smallest of margins. I'd just rather watch him work and that is a reasonable enough tiebreaker when something is this close.

 

Masa Saito or Yoshiaki Yatsu?

 

This will be a contentious statement, but aside from maybe Fuyuki, I think Yatsu is my favorite guy on the AJPW Set. Not saying he's the best guy but he's the only one who has not disappointed me once and who's effort always shines through even in matches where other guys don't seem totally in step. Saito is a guy that really impressed the hell out of me on NJPW and has emerged as a very good wrestler in the AWA as well. I feel like in the most epic of epic matches - the 9-12-88 Elimination Match - he put on a performance of a life time. And since I think that is the greatest match I've ever seen aside from 12/96 that's high praise.

 

One thing I really love about both guys is there offense. Yatsu has this steady stream of signature shit but it all looks good as fuck and sort of flows logically. Saito is more of a bruiser badass, but he's got some really good offense as well that makes him stick out.

 

This is definitely another toss up in my mind where I could go either way. Yatsu/Choshu MIGHT be my favorite Japanese tag team ever in the sense that they felt like a real team and Yatsu was the guy who worked that angle more. That's a big thing in his favor. Another argument in his favor is that he was able to transition partners so well and as said before you never felt like he was giving you anything less than everything he had - at least in AJPW.

 

Saito doesn't have the same volume of matches, but I think his high end performances are better. He just has a more pronounced big match aura to him. The other thing that amazes me about him is how well he the toughest of tough guys was able to transition into cowardly pussy when being chased by Hulk Hogan in the AWA. Seriously his AWA stuff is going to be a great showcase for his versatility.

 

I get the feeling a lot of people will go with Yatsu, but I'm going with Saito. The big match stuff helps to tip the scales as does the versatility and the fact that I think his Saito/Bock team is is actually near the level of Yatsu/Choshu though they don't have the same volume of great matches.

 

Tatsumi Fujinami or Jumbo Tsuruta?

 

I'm just going to say it - I like Fujinami better. I know the arguments for Jumbo. I also know that I have not watched any 90's Fujinami in forever and that it will be probably be really underwhelming if I ever get around to watching it again. But I also know that:

 

I find the evolution of Fujinami from junior to ace more compelling than the evolution of Jumbo from Baba underling to ace. I don't expect anyone to agree with this, but even how stuff like Backlund v. Fujinami fits better within that narrative of growth to me than Funk v. Jumbo from 76 which is a match I like a lot, with Jumbo against a guy who I think is the best wrestler that ever lived. There is just something about watching the growth from him working the matches against Chavo and DK, to the best tag stuff with Kimura, to the Choshu feud, to the awesome eliminations and gauntlets, to the end of the decade run against Vader and guys of that ilk that just demonstrates a greater degree of versatility to me than anything that we got with Jumbo.

 

80's Fujinami has no matches that really disappointed me aside from a couple of the North/South tags and maybe the Lawler match but I can't really fault him for any of those. With Jumbo there are a lot of matches against good wrestlers that I have found disappointing, including tag matches, most of the stuff with Hansen, and even the Flair matches (which I like but think are overrated).

 

While Jumbo's best singles match is better and I could even see the case that his best few singles matches are better than any Fujinami singles, I think the Fujinami/Fujiwara portion of the gauntlet and the Saito/Fujinami portion of the 9-12-88 Elimination are the best exchanges and most intense moments out of Japan from the 80's. Choshu was not the worker Tenryu was and I only think Fujinami v. Choshu is a slightly "worse" series than Tenryu v. Jumbo.

 

In tags I like Fujinami a good bit better. Jumbo is a good tag worker, but to me the dynamic in those matches is still about him and whoever his partner is rather than the team. I prefer Fujinami and Kimura to any team Jumbo was ever in including the Tenryu team because of that (in fact I think Yatsu/Choshu was the better "team" in those matches, though I grant my notion of tag team wrestling may be unfairly slanted through the prism of U.S. wrestling here). I also can't recall a Fujinami tag that I thought trended into overkill the way the worst of Jumbo tag matches did. Again I don't like the North/South matches but for reasons that are beyond the scope of what Fujinami could control.

 

Again the 90's stuff may end up hurting Fujinami a lot (though I do like some of his stuff from the last several years) but for now, based on my recent viewing I would rate him above Jumbo.

 

Dick Togo or Great Sasuke?

 

I think Togo is the lost great worker of the 90's and probably of the last decade too. He was always my favorite Japanese wrestler though that had a lot to do with the fact that he was a fat ass with a dope looking senton. Now I'm starting to think that when I go back and watch all this MPro I have (and I literally have everything) he is going to be a guy that might emerge as one of the two or three best juniors of the 90's. I already know he was brilliant in the multi-man tags and recently watching the Skydiving match with Liger I thought it was pretty fucking incredible, but I'm looking forward to seeing how many gems are out there. Last year he was on the short list of "best in the World candidates" and had three singles matches, working three different styles, against three drastically different opponents, all of which were MOTYCs. I don't expect he will have many years like that, but I do wonder if he doesn't have other years where he is in contention for best in the World from the last decade.

 

Sasuke is kind of a strange one because I think when he was on he was awesome. Probably had the prettiest dives in wrestling and I'd be a liar if I said he wasn't another guy who's look helped him in my eyes. Obviously the 94 J-Cup is what he's most known for and again he's another guy I'm looking forward to digging into in the MPro stuff. I was surprised at how well his ECW stuff held up (liked the Credible match and both of the TM IV matches) and though he didn't have a Togo level year he was really good last year too and may have other stuff worth seeking out.

 

This is a developing one. Right now I have to go with Togo who was more consistent and showed me something last year I've never seen out of Sasuke. But these are guys that are going to be fun to rewatch.

 

Ron Garvin or Greg Valentine?

 

Two of my absolute favorite guys from the 80's and also two of the more underrated wrestlers of all time. Valentine was a minimalist who got more out of less than almost any wrestler in history. I sometimes think that people believe Garvin was a minimalist, but he was actually a guy with a pretty big bag of tricks and quite a few top of the line matches.

 

I think one way of looking at this is to look at their big three series. With Valentine you had v. Backlund, v. Tito and v. Garvin. With Garvin you had v. Tully, v. Flair and v. Garvin. Obviously the matches against each other cancel each other out and while on paper Garvin appears to have an edge in his other series I'm not so sure. The 79 Backlund might be the best match I've seen from the U.S. in the 70's and the Tito series as a whole is extremely underrated. I can't say I would rate any of Valentine's matches better than the Tully v. Garvin Worldwide match, but as a complete body of work it's close.

 

Secondary matches are tough to. Greg has the great Wahoo match, the really great Dream Team tag v. Steamer/Santana, and the Piper dog collar match. His early Mid-Atlantic stuff is lacking in footage but I haven't seen much Garvin ICW so that works both ways. Beyond that he has some unheralded stuff including a strong match v. Bret, a brilliant Steamboat singles match and a really great match against Blue Blazer era Owen Hart. Garvin's best secondary matches would include some of his tag work with Windham, he hand breaking match with Arn and the LLT match with Black Bart. His less heralded stuff v. Perfect, in SMW and even as Miss Atlanta Lively is pretty fun, but I think my personal favorite would be the match with Big Bubba Rogers. Here Valentine's matches are more iconic, but I think you could make a strong case that this is a toss up yet again.

 

The biggest thing that hurts Valentine is that Rhythm and Blues really sucked. The biggest thing that hurts Garvin is that it is hard to shake the perception of "undeserving champion" from him even when you are trying to look at work alone.

 

Even though I like Garvin better, I think I believe Valentine was the slightly better wrestler. He did hang around to long, but he did have some surprisingly solid stuff post-prime. Head-to-head he did had as impressive a run as Garvin, with a smaller bag of tricks, and opposition/setting that was probably not as conducive to having break out matches (that is an arguable point, but I really think Crockett v. Flair and Tully is about as good a setting as one could hope for). In there late 80's/early 90's WWF stuff I thought Valentine's non-Garvin good matches were a lot better than Garvin's non-Valentine good matches. Finally I see the Piper Dog Collar Match, I Broke Wahoo's Leg, and arguably even the Tito feud as more stand outish than Garvin v. Flair or Garvin v. Tully EVEN though I think the best Garvin match is better than the best Valentine match.

 

Christian or CM Punk?

 

This is the ultimate challenge as you are going with the super consistent guy with no marquee main events v. the really inconsistent guy with three of the most epic marquee series of the last decade.

 

Getting this out of the way. Punk v. Joe was great series, Punk v. Hardy was a great series (I'm partial because the Cage match was the closest thing to Chiggy/Dump you will ever see in modern WWE, plus I saw an insanely great house show match between these two) and Punk v. Rey was a great series. If you don't accept those three things I think it is hard to make a case for Punk. Yes some of his IWA-MS stuff was great. Yes he had other great stuff in ROH (I actually really love the infamous "chair throwing" match and I like the Funk match more than pretty much everyone else and neither of those may be top ten Punk in ROH matches). Yes he has some underrated WWE tv stuff (really good match v. Chavo from 08 ECW, the Cena matches from earlier this year, the Regal IC title switch). But his case is really weakened if you don't accept the greatness of those series.

 

Conversely the strength of Christian is not that he was great in 09 and 10. It's that he's been of the most consistently good wrestlers of the last decade. Really there is no point in his run where I think you could point to him as being anything less than good. I always thought he was the best guy in the TLC clusters, his matches against guys like Page and Regal were always enjoyable, he was really good in the Jericho team in 02, his first stab at WWE main eventer was underrated opposite Cena and Jericho, he was a rare guy that was actually good in TNA, and since he's come back he's been consistently one of the top five or six wrestlers on Earth when he's been healthy. Yes 09, 10, and this year are the crown jewels but they aren't everything.

 

Punk is obviously a better character and he can get that over in his matches. His heel act is easily the best thing in modern wrestling. On mechanics alone Christian's best matches are as good as Punk's, but Christian doesn't have any match that reach the best of Punk v. Joe, the drama of the Hardy Cage Match or the OTE match with Rey. The fact that Punk is pretty adaptable and capable of switching speeds is also a plus for him as Christian is a bit more of a formula wrestler.

 

Having said that Punk has NEVER had a year like 09 Christian. That year Christian combined great series (v. Regal, v. Swagger and dare I say it v. Dreamer), with incredible consistency. And not just consistent workmanship, but consistent very good-to-great matches. Literally every week he was having career matches v. guys like Paul Burchill, DH Smith, Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder, Dreamer, Swagger, Regal, et. Punk had a run on ECW too and though he wasn't the anchor for as long, he was one of the stars, and had plenty of chances. He never had matches anywhere near the level of what Christian was pulling off every week.

 

We often whine about how Punk doesn't get a chance to run with the ball but he's had forceful storylines and angles that have gotten over successfully and gotten plenty of time. Christian's most recent heel run is the first time he's had anything comparable. The same thing that has hurt Punk has hurt Christian even more, though to be fair Punk is a far better promo and more naturally charismatic.

 

In this instance I give the slide nod to Christian due to consistency and the fact that his best matches are no worse than Punk's if we are comparing pure work to pure work. Having said that this is so close to being tipped the other way for me it's not funny. If Punk has yet another incredible, iconic match - this time with Cena - it will probably be enough for me to reverse course.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Gotta give Will a plug here. If you think Kerry was just a carry-able musclehead you really need the Texas set. Like Dylan said, you go in thinking Kerry was mediocre and Hayes was as well, and you come out saying "Holy shit, was I wrong. Kerry and Hayes were awesome." The Loser Leaves Town Cage Match between Kerry and Hayes one year after the feud started is fucking great, one of my favorite matches.

[smkelly]

Spike Dudley was awesome at getting the shit kicked out of him because he was so overwhelmingly small looking. The one against Mike Awesome in 2000 had some blurry lines in it though, reminiscent a midget tossing contest that has gotten real in a West Texas kind of way.

[Resident Evil]

Henning's WWF run is soooooo underrated especially when he had his Perfect streak going. Perfect's run is also very misunderstood in what it was going for and how it impacted the fans emotionally. That can be expected somewhat due to the context of time but even than his run and what it did was waaaay underrated. I loved how his matches were often put together at this time.

[Mad Dog]

Gotta give Will a plug here. If you think Kerry was just a carry-able musclehead you really need the Texas set. Like Dylan said, you go in thinking Kerry was mediocre and Hayes was as well, and you come out saying "Holy shit, was I wrong. Kerry and Hayes were awesome." The Loser Leaves Town Cage Match between Kerry and Hayes one year after the feud started is fucking great, one of my favorite matches.

I think Kerry was maybe a step above luggage. But boy, if he was in there with a bad worker, you were in for a really shitty match. And once you hit the mid 80s, he was hit and miss with good workers too. There are some matches where he went out there and you could just tell before it even started that he was majorly fucked up on something and it was going to be a rough match. Him flirting with an invisible woman during a match and I think there was a Lawler match where he cut himself open before the match on his razor blade by mistake. He was pretty brutal to watch by the time the AWA was running those Dallas shows in 88.

[El-P]

Maybe my view of Hennig has been tainted by his god awful WCW stint, but even from comparing the matches Lawler had with him, Bockwinckle and Martel, Hennig comes off as the worst of the three, easily. Of course I haven't seen much of his AWA work overall, so my opinion might change. Hennig is a guy I want to love because he was Mr. Perfect, and I loved him back in the days, but revisiting his work over the years just made me think less and less of him.

 

I don't think Kerry was just a step above luggage. When he was on, he contributed quite a bit to the great matches he was involved in. When he was out of it, there was no hope. But since some think he's some fine piece of luggage what about :

 

Kerry von Eric or Davey Boy Smith ?

[El-P]

It's also worth noting that his WCW run includes the really good match with Luger and the New Freebirds with Garvin were FAR better than they are often given credit for.

Rewatched the Luger match a few weeks ago. It's decent, that's it. Nothing much happens, and Hayes as a terrible DDT. I mean, Onita-like shitty. They also blow the ending badly, it's awful to watch. Phantom ref bump, awkward push from the outside by Gordy. Cringeworthy.

I'm interested in watching the last Freebirds version, and thus far they have shown exactlly zilch against the MX. There's still plenty of matches for me to watch though. Hopefully they are better than they are considered, if not I'm in for some rough times.

[khawk20]

Answering my own questions:

 

Rick Martel or Curt Hennig?

 

To be fair to Martel his run was shorter than Curt's but I still think Curt showed himself to be far more versatile here than Martel did.

Are you talking about their entire AWA run, or each's run as the Champ?

 

Martel entered the AWA in 1982, left briefly and returned in March/April of 1984, winning the title May 13 1984. he held it until December 29 1985, almost 20 months. He was out for good by April of 1986.

 

Hennig was almost a fixture in the AWA from his debut through his jump to the WWF in July of 1988, so his time in the area was longer overall. He reigned as champ from May 2 1987 until May 9 1988, 12 months.

 

So, for clarity, Martel hald the title longer, but Hennig spent more time overall in the AWA.

 

Having said that I have not seen much of Martel's Montreal run and if that turns out to be as good as the rest of his stuff I could see flip flopping on this pretty easily.

You have a disc coming of Martel's Montreal work from 83-85 so you will be able to judge it accordingly soon enough.

 

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Buddy Rose?

 

Having said that Bock was an underrated brawler, a very underrated tag worker (forget the Stevens team, his team with Saito was awesome) and a guy who could work all speeds in a convincing fashion. He wasn't the god of rope running spots that Buddy was, his bumping wasn't as big time and his schitck wasn't as good but he was far from weak in any of those categories.

Reading this, the first thing I thought of was "you could take out the word 'Bockwinkel' and put in the word 'Martel', and it would work just as well".

 

I think it explains why Bockwinkel was so high on Martel to be his successor in 1984 as Champ (Bock lobbied hard for Rick). Both of them really do everything well, no glaring weaknesses in either's game.

[Dylan Waco]

In general I was trying to compare Hennig's over all run, to Martel's over all run though some of my language was a bit clunky.

 

As champ I think it is impossible to argue against Martel in terms of what he brought to the company. He was very good in that role and the right person at the right time. Hennig inherited the mantle of a dying - arguably already dead - brand. He had some great matches as AWA Champ, but he may have been better in the challenger role (as both a face and as a heel actually).

 

Over all though I think the body of work Hennig has is bigger than Martel's

[Mad Dog]

Their title reigns are so different though. Martel was the champion of a viable promotion that had a fairly deep talent pool and had a working relationship with All Japan. Martel was working with the likes of Jumbo, Hansen, the Freebirds, Garvin, Bockwinkel, Brody, etc. Hennig on the other hand was the last superstar in a promotion that was literally cobbled together from guys that needed a place to go between NWA and WWF runs and whatever viable talent they could get from Texas or Memphis at the time. Hennig was working with Wahoo, Kevin Kelly, Rich, Gagne and a lot of guys like that. Martel was better as champ but he had more chances to succeed in the ring than Hennig did. Hennig's biggest flaw as the AWA Champion was that the AWA didn't have anyone of the same starpower to challenge him for the belt.

[Dylan Waco]

That's true and that is kind of my point. I don't think you can really hold Hennig's run "against" him because the situations were so different. On top of it I think the best matches from each guys reign really aren't much different in quality.

 

Having said that I do think that Hennig was better chasing the title than carrying it, even within the context of the severely depleted AWA.