Dave Meltzer stuff

[smkelly]

Here's the full thing:

 

Is it true that The Ultimate Warrior died from a heart attack three years ago and that the WWF found a look-alike to replace the original?

 

Tony Lee

 

Torrance, California

 

DM: That isn't true. Hulk Hogan and Brutus Beefcake aren't brothers either, although early in their career they wrestled as a brother tag team. I know that question wasn't asked, but after years of wrestling radio show interviews, I've developed ESP about what the next question is going to be. I think that Warrior rumor got started when someone played the album "Bad Street USA" backwards and heard Michael Hayes say, "Buddy is dead. I buried Buddy." That of course started the rumor that spread throughout the wrestling world that Buddy Roberts had died, despite the fact he never even missed a single booking. When it became apparent Buddy was still alive and taking such good bumps that they couldn't say it was a corpse that held the Mid South TV title, people were looking to find the death of Michael Hayes' "buddy" that they thought he was talking about. Paul Orndorff's nerve damage became exaggerated into a death from a heart explosion when some whacked out wrestling fans played a Beatles' record backward and thought they were getting inside wrestling scoops. Unfortunately he ruined all those rumors by coming back to wrestling. I think people just assumed Ultimate Warrior died when they would regularly overhear WWF officials in 1990 when he had the title phoning the office after house shows saying, "You should have seen the house tonight. Warrior is dead." Either that or he was the only one bare-footed in photos for the 1991 Official WWF Calendar. If you don't understand any of this and are under 28 years old, don't worry about it because it was all a hoax anyway. Besides, that theory was all hogwash from the start because the only one bare-footed in the Von Erich family poster is the one still alive. The rumor may have gotten started in 1990 because Warrior continually had his hair color and face make-up changed as they were searching for the "magic" look that would make him the draw they were counting on him being and they kept changing his look when he wasn't drawing. Then when he came back in 1992 after seven months off steroids, he was down about 40 pounds so that may have given the rumor some credence.

And people dislike that man?

[rovert]

Bryan comparing reviewing World of Hurt and HBK's hunting show to Dave reviewing Lucha & Puro in the 90s is fucking stupidest thing Ive heard from him a while.

[soup23]

Seriously, I stopped subscribing in May because I couldn't take the irrelevant reviews of WOH and the such. WWE 24/7 is a nice addition as is some of the other stuff, but their rant about the lack of viewers that NXT and Superstars get (Which they used as reasoning to not review) and then reviewing something like WOH or a hunting show is so hypocritical. That combined with Vinny given all of a two minute Royal RUmble review were the final straws for me.

[rovert]

Seriously, I stopped subscribing in May because I couldn't take the irrelevant reviews of WOH and the such. WWE 24/7 is a nice addition as is some of the other stuff, but their rant about the lack of viewers that NXT and Superstars get (Which they used as reasoning to not review) and then reviewing something like WOH or a hunting show is so hypocritical. That combined with Vinny given all of a two minute Royal RUmble review were the final straws for me.

"IT'S MY SHOW." *POUNDS DESK*

 

Just awful. Bryan has escaped up his own arse here. Like someone said to me on twitter why he doesn't just say "I don't wanna watch Smackdown, so I'll watch my buddy and my hero instead?" Rather than making up some bullshit nonsensical excuses. At least be up front about it then he wouldnt look like a crybaby and a moron.

 

Very disappointing.

[Loss]

One thing I will give Bryan credit for is that he has done a great job of making money in the Internet age by not really doing anything except putting his opinion out there . He doesn't really break news or do what Dave does, and now, he's just covering other topics because he can. It's impressive self promotion.

[rovert]

One thing I will give Bryan credit for is that he has done a great job of making money in the Internet age by not really doing anything except putting his opinion out there . He doesn't really break news or do what Dave does, and now, he's just covering other topics because he can. It's impressive self promotion.

WHATAWORKER

[kjh]

But the last World Of Hurt was "THE BEST TELEVISION SHOW IN THE HISTORY OF TELEVISION", rovert. Holy hyperbole... <_>

[soup23]

This will be my last response so it doesn't feel like piling on, but go to any WM or UFC F4W convention and you see how great a worker Bryan can be. Those get togethers are great from a community perspective and I wouldn't hesititate to go to the dinner again as I met some nice people, but people were swarming around Bryan and he was treated like a celebrity with comped desserts and the whole nine yards. I really wish the Torch would come together more as a community because that is one area where observer still dominates. I mean a majority of the people you talk to don't even follow the product and say they keep up with it based on what Bryan says or pay $11 for the board. I can only understand this rationale if it is going to be a short sabbatical for school, busy season at work, etc. If I quit watcing something based on disinterest and don't see any reason why thngs will change in at least the relative future, the last thing I would want to do would be to pay money to listen to people talk about wrestlers who if I am true to my word I have never heard of. Wade Barrett and Alberto Del Rio would be two examples and should only just be names if all I do is listen to Bryan and Dave to get my wrestling fix. I know I am rambling, I just feel that in the past year, the voices heard at the F4W site are getting larger and the backlash to differing opinions greater.

[Ditch]

What *is* the appeal of Bryan, anyway? I was speaking with a website owner a few years ago who was pulling his hair out about how tough it is to make money with a wrestling website that's a mix of news and opinion, in a sea of similar content, while Bryan (pre-merger) was making money with pure opinion. And not even, like, spectacularly insightful opinion. I can understand paying post-merger, but Bryan already had a significant fanbase at that point.

[rovert]

But the last World Of Hurt was "THE BEST TELEVISION SHOW IN THE HISTORY OF TELEVISION", rovert. Holy hyperbole...

He doesnt watch Television in fairness. He hasnt even heard of Game of Thrones!

 

Like soup23 said I dont really want a pile on. I dont mind hyperbole as that is a part of Bryan's writing style in fairness to him. At least he is honest on that front so no issue there.

[soup23]

What *is* the appeal of Bryan, anyway? I was speaking with a website owner a few years ago who was pulling his hair out about how tough it is to make money with a wrestling website that's a mix of news and opinion, in a sea of similar content, while Bryan (pre-merger) was making money with pure opinion. And not even, like, spectacularly insightful opinion. I can understand paying post-merger, but Bryan already had a significant fanbase at that point.

I never subscribed pre merger but did listen and read some of the archives when I joined and now can be positive to Bryan, I think people enjoyed Bryan's writing style and wit. He was also on board early on with audio and had interviews with a lot of the indy talent that we didn't know much about. For instance, Bryan Danielson, we knew he was the "best wrestler in the world" but not much about his personality. Bryan was able to extract a lot of that in his interview. The early Bryan and Vinny shows were also very conversational and relatable and seemed to provide a good mix between two dudes discussing wrestling shows with wackiness mixed in, but also that they know their stuff and there is some professionalism going on so it doesn't appear to be a random Youtube uploader. The timing of these shows coincided greatly too with Wade coming up with some of his most "out of the box" ideas and seeming really disconnected, and Mitchell being extremely smug in his columns. I think Bryan initially had a lot of backage as the "Meltzer and Keller" of the generation of fans that started watching in the mid to late 1980's and 1990's like me, and somehow he just lost his way with some of his customers.

[rovert]

Early Bryan & Vinnys definitely were more fun and conversational rather than the "let's run through this shit"/"Vinny you talk" type shows were get now. At the very least Bryan is/was a really good populist wrestling writer and podcaster who can grow or at least maintain his subscriber base no matter what he does even pre-Merger. He doesnt have to run specials frequently or have a hard sell website.

[Cox]

One thing I don't like about the way Bryan and Dave are running the site is that they don't seem to have any concept for how to run a successful website in the year 2011. Forget for a minute that they paywall such random stories. They have no idea, for instance, the best times to post their daily news updates or their newsletters. I know there's some East Coast bias at work here, but most "normal" folks on the East Coast work 8 AM to 5 PM, and sometimes you'll see daily news updates go up at 6, or newsletters that go up at 8. People like to surf the internet at work, but because Dave and Bryan post their updates so late in the day, folks on the East Coast can sometimes completely miss out on a daily update and a newsletter because it goes up after they leave work, and by the time they get back to work the next day, it's buried underneath stuff like "Joe Babinsack reviews Women's Extreme Wrestling" or the latest audio show. I know not everybody works on East Coast time (heck, even I don't and I work on the East Coast) but there should be some sort of content that goes up around 9-10 AM every day for the East Coast folks, and maybe something else that goes up around 2 that keeps people on both coasts occupied throughout the day. Posting newsletters as late as Dave does is counter-productive.

 

For that matter, I'm not even sure the concept of a newsletter in this day and age works on the internet. I am guessing that Dave and Bryan probably don't write everything the night before the newsletter is due. Some things, sure, but not everything. Why not release certain news and tidbits throughout the week in subscriber-only updates? When Dave started the WON 30 years ago, it made sense to have a news section that recapped a week's worth of news in one shot, but that's passe now with the internet. A lot of the scoops Dave is reporting in the WWE section of the WON can sometimes be up to a week old thanks to other reporting. If, say, Randy Savage dies on a Friday, and if the obituary is completed by Monday, why not post it as a subscriber-only update on Monday instead of waiting until Wednesday when it goes up with the rest of the WON? Why does the F4W site need three Raw recaps (Todd Martin's on Monday, Bryan's on Tuesday as part of F4W, Dave's on Wednesday as part of the WON)? I understand that Todd's serves as a free update for those who don't subscribe, but a WON subscriber can read three similar takes on the same wrestling program over the course of three days if they chose to (granted, I don't really read Todd's recaps or Bryan's recaps, and I've started skimming through Dave's as well). The execution of their site could be so much better than it is, and it just reeks of people who don't understand how the internet works in the year 2011. Granted, they seem to be making money regardless, but I suspect they're leaving money on the table as well.

[Loss]

This is a great post, and I would love to hear Dave's response to all of it if the question was presented to him.

 

He is as much set in his ways as the wrestling promoters he typically criticizes for being too set in their ways.

[rovert]

PWTorch adheres closer to Cox's vision for those who dont know. As Wade "leaks" columns from that weeks Torch early before the Newsletter is published. I think Observer could benefit by going up piecemeal as it would be easier to proof by Dave or someone else. As they wouldnt be working to one big deadline or doing it all in one go blurry eyed late Wednesday/Thursday. In a sense it is shame that Mike Johnson and Dave Meltzer didnt partner as you would have that East Coast/West Coast synergy.

 

On the other hand Dave does kind of publish the newsletter in audio form on podcasts.

[kjh]

I guess the reason Dave hasn't changed the newsletter format much is that he still has a significant number of subscribers that just get a paper copy or get both.

 

But I agree that they're costing themselves a lot of exposure by the format of their stories being randomly pay walled or lumped into one news update. Those stories don't get picked up by search engines like Google News, which must cost them a lot of hits.

[sek69]

Thing is , it's pretty clear Dave has little to no input on the website itself. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons for the WON/F4W merger was Dave not being able and/or willing to continue maintaining a website on top of doing the newsletter. Now he has Bryan do all the computer stuff for him, which freed up more time for him to do outside work like his Yahoo gig. Dave really reminds me of the customers I deal with at work who are really nice guys, but when they call in for tech support they have no idea how to do even the most basic things.

 

Bryan on the other hand seems to be turning into quite the little tyrant. Napoleonic comparisons aside, it seems that his trademark hardheadedness has mutated into a near bully level "my way or the highway" attitude. Vinny had a comment a few weeks back referring back to an argument he had with Bryan over something minor, saying he gave up not because Bryan was right but because he'll NEVER STOP ARGUING. So it was easier to just drop it because he's never going let it go.

 

I never go to the board, but I get how it can be taxing on one's nerves to be one of the main topics of discussion. Having said that, I can't recall seeing someone so abusive to his paying customers as he is. There's got to be a better way to prove your argument to someone who pays your bills than to flat out say "fuck you, I'm right and you're stupid". His rant on reviewing shows he does *because* no one watches was bizarre as stated before, as was his other rant on being called out on pointing out how small John Morrison was when he returned last week on RAW. Bryan worked himself into a tizzy (actually his words) with a long HOW DARE YOU IMPLY I SUGGEST GUYS USE STEROIDS when he did pretty much exactly that. A guy comes out after a long absence who clearly didn't get much notice he was coming back so soon, and your comment is "wow he should have worn a shirt", not to sound like a Bryan rant, but WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU EXPECT PRO WRESTLING FANS ON AN INTERNET BOARD TO TAKE THAT TO MEAN? Especially when you follow it up with "he still had definition but he was really small", his defense of "obviously I meant he couldn't go to the gym because he was injured you stupid people" makes even less sense.

 

That's not even mentioning his running gimmick now of coming up with these booking ideas (which honestly weren't too bad) and completely losing his shit if anyone critiques them. FWIW he seemed to get really obnoxious with that after he ran his CM Punk/MITB idea past Dave who stated it was the best one he's heard, which was kind of damning it with faint praise since Dave had been blind iteming that there had been some pretty awful ideas floated around for the finish of that show. Of course that part went way over Bryan's head and now he seems to think he's Paul Heyman.

[Cox]

I guess the reason Dave hasn't changed the newsletter format much is that he still has a significant number of subscribers that just get a paper copy or get both.

 

But I agree that they're costing themselves a lot of exposure by the format of their stories being randomly pay walled or lumped into one news update. Those stories don't get picked up by search engines like Google News, which must cost them a lot of hits.

I wouldn't say to discontinue the newsletter, but there has to be a way to better integrate newsletter content onto the website throughout the week rather than just posting everything on Wednesdays or whatever day the WON goes up. Maybe post stuff on the site throughout the week and then wrangle it all together into the print WON which would be mailed on Wednesdays or Thursdays or whenever he currently mails it out. There has to be a better way to post news than what he's doing now, that's for sure.

[Loss]

I'm guessing most of his print subscribers are people in the business. I've often wondered if those people lurk at the board and if so, what they think.

[sek69]

I'm guessing most of his print subscribers are people in the business. I've often wondered if those people lurk at the board and if so, what they think.

 

If they do, it would certainly explain the opinion most seem to have of "sheet readers".

[Cox]

I'm guessing most of his print subscribers are people in the business. I've often wondered if those people lurk at the board and if so, what they think.

I'm guessing most of his print subscribers are also older and haven't figured out this whole internet thing yet. And if they have, if they spent one minute visiting that board, they'd probably never go back anyway.

[jdw]

I know Yohe just likes to read the paper one more. Suspect there are a fair number of long time readers that are that way as well.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

If I had the money, I would get the paper newsletter again. I loved getting that thing on Thursday and it would last me most of the weekend.

 

I tried Figure4 on my Kindle and my god, what a piece of crap that thing was. I don't know what anyone sees in Bryan. He seems to hate everything and on top of that he's a fairly mediocre writer.

[kjh]

I still get a paper sub, as I would find it difficult to read the whole thing in one sitting on the computer.

[FLIK]

One thing I don't like about the way Bryan and Dave are running the site is that they don't seem to have any concept for how to run a successful website in the year 2011. Forget for a minute that they paywall such random stories. They have no idea, for instance, the best times to post their daily news updates or their newsletters. I know there's some East Coast bias at work here, but most "normal" folks on the East Coast work 8 AM to 5 PM, and sometimes you'll see daily news updates go up at 6, or newsletters that go up at 8. People like to surf the internet at work, but because Dave and Bryan post their updates so late in the day, folks on the East Coast can sometimes completely miss out on a daily update and a newsletter because it goes up after they leave work, and by the time they get back to work the next day, it's buried underneath stuff like "Joe Babinsack reviews Women's Extreme Wrestling" or the latest audio show. I know not everybody works on East Coast time (heck, even I don't and I work on the East Coast) but there should be some sort of content that goes up around 9-10 AM every day for the East Coast folks, and maybe something else that goes up around 2 that keeps people on both coasts occupied throughout the day. Posting newsletters as late as Dave does is counter-productive.

 

For that matter, I'm not even sure the concept of a newsletter in this day and age works on the internet. I am guessing that Dave and Bryan probably don't write everything the night before the newsletter is due. Some things, sure, but not everything. Why not release certain news and tidbits throughout the week in subscriber-only updates When Dave started the WON 30 years ago, it made sense to have a news section that recapped a week's worth of news in one shot, but that's passe now with the internet. A lot of the scoops Dave is reporting in the WWE section of the WON can sometimes be up to a week old thanks to other reporting. If, say, Randy Savage dies on a Friday, and if the obituary is completed by Monday, why not post it as a subscriber-only update on Monday instead of waiting until Wednesday when it goes up with the rest of the WON Why does the F4W site need three Raw recaps (Todd Martin's on Monday, Bryan's on Tuesday as part of F4W, Dave's on Wednesday as part of the WON) I understand that Todd's serves as a free update for those who don't subscribe, but a WON subscriber can read three similar takes on the same wrestling program over the course of three days if they chose to (granted, I don't really read Todd's recaps or Bryan's recaps, and I've started skimming through Dave's as well). The execution of their site could be so much better than it is, and it just reeks of people who don't understand how the internet works in the year 2011. Granted, they seem to be making money regardless, but I suspect they're leaving money on the table as well.

Ok now ppl are just bitching for the sake of bitching. Seriously, the time of day they post content is all wrong? SERIOUSLY?? WTF???