Dave Meltzer stuff

[smkelly]

Man, The Wall was awful...

He was awful. Decent as Malice in TNA though.

 

Yeah, I watched the first few PPV, and he seemed to have improved quite a bit since the Wall days. Well, he could only improve.

 

Okay, quit piling on. I was like 14 when The Wall debuted, so it was strictly nostalgia talking last night. Didn't have the Internet, didn't have subscriptions to newsletters, had only seen a few bootlegged tapes my cousin got straight from Japan (his pen pal from like the 4th grade or something). Basically, I didn't really know what was good/bad in the sense of what I do now. At any rate, he improved from being under the WWE development system.

[Victator]

I don't really think the Wall was bad in 2000. I enjoyed a match he had with Hogan that year.

[jdw]

Reading the 12/12/88 WON and what Dave wrote above, they're not entirely consistent. I'm sure Dave could try to reconcile them, but in the end what he wrote above could have been incorporated into what he wrote in 1988 with the simple deletion of Larry's name (if Dave felt the need to protect his source). But it's pretty clear from what he wrote in 1988 that Dusty still had major power and a secure position of that power when Turner bought the promotion, that Ric then cut a deal / pulled a power play with TBS, and that there was a major issue with the Starcade finish. Dave also was very specific that the change to Flair-Luger was *Petrik's* decision by name, not Herd's.

 

By the time things came to a head in December 1988, the company already was Turners. It was a little late to dump the company if Ric quit. Ric also was under contract before December, with that new contract that gave him "power to determine his own finishes and angles", included over the World Title. Ric didn't need to quit, nor would Herd and Petrik(well aware of Ric's contractual power) need to worry about Ric quiting: if Ric didn't like the Steiner match, or want to drop the title to Steiner, he didn't need to. He had the power to say no without quitting, and Dusty was fucked.

 

Sure, Dusty tried to book the match and finish (according to Dave at the time). And Petrik at the time made the decision to make the change, according to Dave. But really the only way to read that was Petrik supporting Ric's request and right to change the match and finish from one that he didn't want to one he wanted.

 

Again: if what happed is how Dave described it above, he could have written it clearly at the time simply with Larry's name out. It's the type of stuff Dave would write about, and actually make's Ric look better than what Dave wrote. Lord knows that even when Ric refused to do things or was something of a prick (such as trying to extort a contract extension in return for dropping the title to Lex in 1991), Dave tended to write it in a way that made Ric look the best and/or defend Ric. The stuff above is great for Ric: he had nothing to do with changing the finish, and instead others were enlightened about Ric's value to the company and wanting to do right by him.

 

John

[Guest Slickster]

But you just can't go down the "no solution" route, no matter how broken record your coverage is. If that's how one feels, use it for things when guys drop dead or overdose like Gordy. Don't be so dumb as to use it when someone is out drinking and driving. There are obvious solutions there, and obvious risks that are to high, going beyond simply the risk of Kurt dropping dead.

 

John

I agree that the solutions are obvious, but by all appearances there isn't anybody around Kurt Angle who will pursue any of them.

Neither Kurt Angle, nor his friends, nor his girlfriend, nor his ex-wife, nor his employer can admit there is a problem serious enough to require action.

Unless the state stages some sort of intervention or some fan kidnaps Kurt there's no way action will be taken.

Honestly, I liked Bix's article where he told fans to detach emotionally from Matt Hardy so it hurts less if he's gone.

[rovert]

Dave wrote this in today's update

 

--How did TNA ever miss the boat on having Rosita challenge Winter for the title on today's show? I mean, when life hands you an obvious angle, you just ignore it because you didn't create it? Rosita's father died ten years ago today, and she was on NBC which got TNA more exposure than anything in a long time. She's not even booked on the show.

What do you guys think of think of this? Extremely retrograde & silly or just Pro Wrestling?

[Ditch]

So I assume one of those lines is Dave and not the other...?

[rovert]

So I assume one of those lines is Dave and not the other...?

Oops sorry, Ditch long day.

[FLIK]

--How did TNA ever miss the boat on having Rosita challenge Winter for the title on today's show? I mean, when life hands you an obvious angle, you just ignore it because you didn't create it? Rosita's father died ten years ago today, and she was on NBC which got TNA more exposure than anything in a long time. She's not even booked on the show.

Meh, TNA does a lot of stupid shit and misses the boat on a ton of things but I don't think hot shotting a face turn for a girl who's spent all year as part of a Mexican anti America stable and putting the title on her so they could get a 1 night feel good moment pop by exploiting people's emotions over 9/11 and her real life tragedy is one of them. TNA ignores their own past storylines enough as is w/o our encouragement. I'm fine with them letting this one slide.

[Guest Slickster]

I think Dave's point is that TNA could have turned Rosita face in July or August in preparation for this angle and it could have worked.

[FLIK]

True but i'm still not digging the idea, dunno, anniversary of your dad's death in a national tragedy just kinda seems like the wrong reason to give someone a title (I know Meltzer only said she should be challenging bur really if you did that angle you couldn't not have her win)

[Guest Slickster]

Is it different than Kurt Angle winning the WWE Championship at Unforgiven 2001 after 9/11 in his hometown in the arena his father died working to construct?

Because that's how WWE spun that match.

[FLIK]

I have no memory of that even though I was watching at the time but on paper not really.

 

And now Meltzer in his live TNA report

 

The show opened with a ceremony regarding the 10th anniversary of 9/11. This was probably as classy a thing of this type that I've ever seen wrestling do. They focused heavily on Jesse Neal, in uniform, and had Rosita, whose father died ten years ago in New York on this day, holding the American flag.

 

Having said that, focusing so heavily on Kurt Angle and Rosita, who are heels, is kind of weird during the body of a wrestling show, particularly with Kurt as the main event heel.

..........SERIOUSLY??????????

 

Also

 

Mexican America vs. Pope & Devon for the tag titles

Rosita went from carrying the American flag to 50 minutes later playing an anti-American Mexican.

*SIGH*

Shoulda just let it slide kids.

 

Jeremy Borash did an interview about 9/11. He brought out Rosita, said her name was Thea Trinidad and had her talk about losing her father and she was ten years old at the time. Said her dad was her inspiration, it never gets easier because every day he's missing from the dinner table. He wanted to be a pro wrestler, her mom didn't, he taught her her first moves. He wanted to be a pro wrestler but because of raising a family he could never do it. She said it's been a hard day crying in the back. Great interview. But it's like this show has dual realities. No wonder nobody cares about the product when they slap your face with that it's all bullshit and they don't even care.

Shoulda just let it slide

This is what Meltzer wanted them to do though so he has no room to bitch.

[Tim Evans]

They should have done the interview right after they did the moment of silence or before.

[rovert]

Due to curiosity shown by members on the forum Dave put the famous Death of Ann Calvello story issue early.

[Ricky Jackson]

Although his "I hate modern wrestling" shtick is often tiresome, I do get a kick out of Bryan's gleefully anti-WWE F4W headlines. This weeks gem: "Summerslam buyrate tanks"

[KrisZ]

Dave's headline to this was "Response by former successful booker about the news this past week". So the question is who do you think the booker is.

 

just skimmed newsletter as it arrived and a couple thoughts to share with you....

 

1 - I feel vindicated about the Punk angle in that my mind is still good for what works and what doesn't. He was not over as a star to the general audience and going inside is a turn-off to the big audience. I like him, he talks good, nice part of a package, but I do not see a superstar there. Plus, if they had any momentum with their base, they blew it even in the 2nd week of the angle. Now it's just a muddle which clearly is leading to Vince back on top...god, Vince and Stephanie and HHH fighting. Ole Paul better be careful about life imitating art (is this art?). Mostly, though, to me, this feels like all the mid level, prelim guys getting angles waiting for the real stars to come back. Part of problem is there are no stars to come back. Part of it is caused by everyone knows Cena-Rock is the goal so they're tuning out everything else especially since the talent is so....flat. I half am willing to bet... Rock and Cena will do well, but in the end disappoint because too far out on announcement, too much attention over so long will end up boring a segment of the big audience. And I wonder if, in the long run, that Rock isn't part of the regular package will become a drawback = not an easy to sell to care about who wins. He ain't staying anyway! Have to see on that one. Just points to consider.

 

2 - Overall, I agreed with you on ROH first tv. Yeah, I thought the show looked - murky. From a production standpoint. Appreciated what they tried to do and now it takes patience and a realistic goal (which you covered well).

 

Oh, one other point that caught my eye. Core audience is male, 18 to 30 or whatever. That's fine. But it needs to expand - right? I didn't see one crowd shot with a female you could see. I don't mean models but just normal looking ladies. They need to get 20-30% female eventually. Don't any of their fans have dates??? I'd make an effort if I were them to sprinkle in some older faces and especially some female faces (not strippers, not models) just for the generic look as part of a long term effort. Even a few 11, 12 year olds. But nobody asked me. LOL Which is fine.

 

Name withheld

[Dylan Waco]

Jerry Jarrett?

[Mad Dog]

Don't any of their fans have dates???

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of their fanbase do not...

 

I've taken my wife to WWE, I've taken my wife to WEC, I would take my wife to TNA, I would take my wife to Chikara, I would never take my wife within a mile of an RoH show or RoH fans.

[rovert]

Could be a pun on the Formerly Creative podcast or a playful dig at Gabe!

[FLIK]

So the question is who do you think the booker is.

It's either one of the ex WWE writers like Court Bauer or maybe Dutch Mantel?

 

Jerry Jarret doesn't watch WWE that much, doubt he pays any attention to ROH either. None of the other former bookers that I know Dave talks with like Cornette, Heyman, Gabe, etc.. fit the bill on this one either

[rovert]

I doubt Jerry Jarrett would write "lol"

[jdw]

"former successful booker"

 

Exactly how many of them are there who would write Dave?

 

Cornette, Paul E, Gabe... it starts getting thin after that.

 

Dusty wouldn't write that, and Dave would describe him in a different way than "booker".

 

Court a "former successful booker"? My ass. Anyone else in the "WWE Creative Era"? Other than Paul E, no... Dave wouldn't describe any of the former members of WWE Creative currently writing in that way.

 

Russo? Sure...

 

Patterson? Doesn't look like how he would write it, and I doubt Dave would describe Pat in a blind item as "former successful booker". Same with Larry From St. Louis... what in the hell did Larry "successfully book"?

 

The old WCCW Salad Days bookers? No...

 

We're running thin, folks.

 

Cornette wouldn't write that since he's in ROH.

 

So it's either Gabe or Heyman. I'm not sure why Heyman would withhold his name, unless he thinks there's some $$$ in there to be made of New ROH Ownership bounces Corney & Co. and goes looking for Saint Paul. That seems unlikely, unless Dave just wanted to protect Heyman by withholding the names.

 

Gabe?

 

What's strange is that one would think Heyman and Gabe would see Punk as having more potential than the WWE does. In fact, didn't Heyman like Punk back in the day?

 

So maybe that "successul" part is a throw off, and in reality the former members of WWE Creative aren't really bookers anyway: they're freaking writers.

 

Fab piece here. Because it's unattributed, we don't know whether to give it any credibility or now because for all we know it could be fucking Terry Taylor.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

It's not Heyman unless he has DRASTICALLY changed his view on Punk over the years. The line about the lack of women in the crowds along with the implication that it is someone who is older rules out Gabe.

[rovert]

It's not Heyman unless he has DRASTICALLY changed his view on Punk over the years. The line about the lack of women in the crowds along with the implication that it is someone who is older rules out Gabe.

 

“Bill, where are all the blowjobs?" - Bill Dundee

[KrisZ]

I will tell you this it is definitely not Punk or Sapolsky because they are marks for Punk.

 

No one has brought up Dutch for the conversation, he was successful in Puerto Rico.