El-P Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Hamada essentially created that style of wrestling, was a good worker for longer, and was at least as big an international star as Ultimo. Hamada isn't in. Why? Agreed. Hamada formed UWF and trained Ultimo, who then trained Sasuke. And if Hamada's UWF wasn't a huge success, at least I don't think it was, Michinoku Pro put the lucharesu style on the map before Ultimo even promoted, with the participation to the big interpromotionnal events in the mid90's. It really went : Hamada UWF / Sasuke MPRo / Ultimo DG. Hamada was a terrific worker as early as the late 70's, and was still excellent in the early 00's as far as I know. I like Ultimo a whole lot, but I don't think he was ever as great as Hamada was at his best, and he surely didn't last as long as a top worker because of the injury. Plus Hamada produced Ayako, which surely has to play some role somewhere in is favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 "Ultimo was arguably the best in the world in late '96" isn't a brand new talking point, FWIW. I forget how it came up, but I remember someone (Wade?) bringing it up in that year's Torch yearbook when talking about his time at the center of the junior/cruiser divisions in both WCW and NJPW. John could probably dig it up. It didn't seem entirely outrageous at the time (especially with how Michaels was being pimped back then), as he had at least three (Ohtani, Rey, Malenko) consensus MOTYCs from August to December in addition to some other interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think the problem with people voting for him based largely on his WCW run from August '96 (though he didn't come in as a full timer until later that year) - July '98, is that not only was it a ridiculously short run, but he was being considered as a Japanese candidate at the time. It's a shame there isn't an "international" bucket for guys who made their Hall Of Fame cases in multiple regions. The same thing goes for "Dr. Death" Steve Williams, who is likely picking up votes for his Mid South run too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 It's not *that* crazy to call Ultimo one of the best in the world in the last half of 1996. If someone wanted to make the case for him as the very best, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't think the person was crazy either. But even if you assume that's completely true, on its own, it's just not a really compelling HOF case. If you're looking at influential trainers, there are quite a few guys that could be listed above Ultimo. I guess the method would be to figure out who trained all the best workers and biggest stars in wrestling history. Hiro Matsuda trained Hulk Hogan and Lex Luger, which, like it or not, had a greater combined impact on pro wrestling than Ultimo Dragon's trainees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 So Great Workers is the number one criteria now or am I reading that wrong? If I'm not I will start going to bat for a shit ton of other guys who aren't even on the ballot. Not so much that being a great worker is the number one criteria. The way he phrased it is more that having the respect of your peers as a good worker is the number one criteria Heh, so am I the only one that read it as Dave simply saying you have to meet one of those criteria with NO emphasis on any of them being more important then the other? Yeah, I don't think he was actually ranking the criteria, just saying "these are the three things that we are judging candidates on, not being pushed a lot by the promotion". So what Dave is actually saying now is that Big Daddy wasn't a draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 It's not *that* crazy to call Ultimo one of the best in the world in the last half of 1996. If someone wanted to make the case for him as the very best, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't think the person was crazy either. But even if you assume that's completely true, on its own, it's just not a really compelling HOF case. If you're looking at influential trainers, there are quite a few guys that could be listed above Ultimo. I guess the method would be to figure out who trained all the best workers and biggest stars in wrestling history. Hiro Matsuda trained Hulk Hogan and Lex Luger, which, like it or not, had a greater combined impact on pro wrestling than Ultimo Dragon's trainees. I take issue with the training part a little. DG has essentially become the no.2 promotion in Japan and most of that roster was trained by Ultimo Dragon. That's a pretty big deal. This would be like if Shawn Michaels' Texas Academy had become huge and become second to only the WWE. He essentially trained an entire promotion that has become a big deal. It might not be Hogan and Luger but it's still a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 The problem is DG is largely the number two promotion by default, due to the collapse in other promotions business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dave trying to justify Ultimo and Hase getting in: "When Dragon was in WCW before he injured his elbow (and he was never a great worker after that), I remember people in that company saying he was the best worker in the entire business. That was in a company with Benoit, Malenko, Rey and Guerrero. I remember a Dragon vs. Malenko program in particular when guys in WCW were saying it was the best match in the country and Dragon was better than Malenko in those matches. "Ultimo was arguably the best in the world in late '96" isn't a brand new talking point, FWIW. I forget how it came up, but I remember someone (Wade?) bringing it up in that year's Torch yearbook when talking about his time at the center of the junior/cruiser divisions in both WCW and NJPW. John could probably dig it up. It didn't seem entirely outrageous at the time (especially with how Michaels was being pimped back then), as he had at least three (Ohtani, Rey, Malenko) consensus MOTYCs from August to December in addition to some other interesting stuff. It's not *that* crazy to call Ultimo one of the best in the world in the last half of 1996. If someone wanted to make the case for him as the very best, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't think the person was crazy either. But even if you assume that's completely true, on its own, it's just not a really compelling HOF case. Just to clear up a little: it doesn't appear that *Dave* was saying that Dragon was the best worker in the world in the second half of 1996. It was "people in that company", i.e. the company that Dragon worked for, which always skews people's viewpoints. Even if it was Tenay saying it, that remains a skewed viewpoint. Dave didn't think Dragon was the best worker in the world at that point. Excluding women such as Toyota (who Dave still was very high on at the end of 1996), Dave thought Misawa was the best worker in the world, with Kawada and Kobashi in that same class... and *no* male worker at that level. There was a group below them such as Benoit, Liger and Eddy. Dragon was in that group by the end of 1996, but there was a bit more comfort level with the other three because there was years of matches to ppint at while Dragon might be on a hot streak where he dialed into a great collection of oppopents. We use to talk about who would challenege those three for the best in the world, with guys like Ohtani and Jun. Ohtani was very much in that group with Benoit, Liger and Eddy, while Jun had no singles matches that you could really hang a hat on yet to really elevate him into that group. "He might be..." but not just yet when all it was based on were the great tags. There were guys like Rey and Psicosis that he didn't know quite where they fit in. Up there, he really loved them, but did he think they were as great as Benoit when it came down to it given the same opportunity of quality opponents? Not quite yet. Juv was up there early in 1996, but the second half of 1996 didn't have much for him to hang his hat on. But that's the level that Dragon was at. How strong did Dave believe that Dragon was on the second tier? Look up his rating of Dragon-Ohtani, which is a pretty reasonable pick of Dragon's best match in the second half of 1996 (frankly the entire year). Dave saw it live, and like most any of us, live always add something to the snowflakes. Dave really, really, really liked that match. I watched a lot of great matches with him, including at least one he rated ***** and a surprising number he rated ****3/4... almost all of which he rates 1/4* to 3/4* higher than me, FWIW. Anyway, after the match backstage in the "press room" of Sumo Hall, a number of the Japanese media was calling it the best match in Tokyo to that point of the year. Dave was rather strongly disagreeing, pointing to Misawa & Akiyama vs Williams & Ace. Misawa & Akiyama vs. Williams & Ace ***** Dragon vs. Otani ****3/4 One was live, the other was Memorex. It's highly likely that if Dave had been in Budokan for the tag match, and at home for the Dragon-Ohtani, it would have been: Misawa & Akiyama vs. Williams & Ace *****+++ ("Best match I've ever seen live!") Dragon vs. Otani ****1/2 I'd also add that the window in which he thought Dragon was in the class of Benoit, Liger and Eddy was pretty narrow. That's another difference: there were times when Dave thought Liger was the best worker in the world during say 1989-91. There probably were times as AJPW fell off that Dave thought Benoit was the best worker. I zoned out of his coverage when Eddy was at his peak in the WWE, so others would have to fill in how highly Dave rated Eddy at that point and if there ever was a "Eddy might be the best worker in the world" from him. Dragon... never got there because his "peak" lined up with the AJPW 3 at their peak. And there was male worker in the 1993-98 range that he thought was at their level. Whenever the question popped up in his mind, another Budokan main event would pop up and rconfirm what he thought. So yeah... "some people" in WCW whose opinions on work Dave at the time didn't value as much as *his own* since he watched a hell of a lot more than any of those guys. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Then how the hell did Ultimo get in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I suspect that we'd find, if we knew who voted for whom, that the difference between Ultimo being several votes short of the HOF to getting in, would be his peers in WCW who rated him highly as a worker, but weren't experts on the Japanese scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dave doesn't limit "Great Worker" to just the three guys at the top. He thought Ultimo was a great worker. That he was a "star" (whatever the hell that means) in three different countries. Not in the sense of a Draw, but a success to some degree. That he had "impact" and the trainer bonus, even if they are relatively modest. I'm not vouching for thinking he's a HOF. I didn't vote for him. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 If you're looking at influential trainers, there are quite a few guys that could be listed above Ultimo. I guess the method would be to figure out who trained all the best workers and biggest stars in wrestling history. Hiro Matsuda trained Hulk Hogan and Lex Luger, which, like it or not, had a greater combined impact on pro wrestling than Ultimo Dragon's trainees. Using this criteria, could a case be made for Danny Davis? At OVW, he trained what will probably end up being quite a few hall-of-famers (Cena, Orton, Batista?, Lesnar?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I can see Dave's response: "Was Davis a great worker? Was he a great worker and a star in the US, Mexico and Japan?" To Dave, and the people who voted for him, Dragon is a HOF for several reasons, not one. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Going back to Edge. Just in his field alone I would vote for the following over him: Batista Curt Hennig Ivan Koloff Fabulous Moolah Pedro Morales Dick Murdoch Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)' Sgt. Slaughter Jimmy Snuka Sting Mr. Wrestling II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 There is zero argument for Edge over Koloff, Morales, Murdoch, RnR, Slaughter. I think it takes a massive stretch to rate him over Snuka. Don't know enough about II but that strikes me as a "no way in hell Edge is better" guy. Sting may be lateral, though Edge was never the biggest star in wrestling and Sting was while not even being active. I think he's lateral with Batista. He may be a better candidate than Hennig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I only would vote for Hennig over Edge because I see his run as AWA Champion having more merit than any of Edge's big moments. By which, I mean that Hennig had the entire promotion built around him for that reign where Edge never had any of his reigns as the centerpiece of the WWE. EDIT: And Morales sucked hard but he was a proven draw, he had some big programs and he was the no. 1 or 2 face in the WWWF throughout the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Edge is a stronger candidate than Hennig, if only because Edge in his role worked. Hennig didn't draw as well as other challengers to Hogan. Hennig also had such a bad match with Misawa on an All Japan tour that Baba never invited him back. It amazes me that Hennig still gets enough support to stay on the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Because Hennig was awesome in the AWA and looked like a superstar that was just on a different planet from everyone around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Hennig is one of the two worst candidates on the ballot, the other being Owen. Having said that I could see voting for Hennig over Edge. Yes Hennig did nothing to move numbers as AWA champ and he bombed as a draw against Hogan. But he was also one of the best wrestlers in the States from 83-88, if not the World. If forced to pick I would rate Edge as the better candidate, but the fact that I think Edge is closer to him as a candidate than almost anyone else on that list is really the whole point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think they're the bottom 3 and Batista is probably the 4th worst candidate on the list. I just think it's ridiculous if Edge gets in over any number of those people. I mean, why the hell is Moolah on the list at all? She's disliked strong, and for good reason but her impact on women's wrestling is undeniable and you really can't start adding other women until you have Moolah and Burke sitting in your HoF. This is why his HoF is stupid. Guys that are still active and modern get weighted far too heavily against older wrestlers with clearly better credentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think people have a soft spot for Mr. Perfect. It's pretty similar to the next generation of fans being attached to the Attitude Era or the 00's: it's what they grew into fandom with. The stars of that era have special meaning to them. Mr. Perfect was a cool WWF heel "superstar" in the era. He wasn't as good of a draw opposite Hogan as Bossman, or possibly even as good of a working opponent opposite Hogan (in that very narrow sense of Hogan Opponents). But Hennig was what hardcores inside and outside the business wanted to be / enjoyed. Bossman was a fat guy, and who the hell wants that. There are times when it seems to be hard to talk "facts" with fans of his because he just hits that spot. I suppose my own analogy would be Hase. He hits the spot, he made NJPW a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch from 1989 when I first started watching through 1995 when he left. He was a good worker, a very solid hand who could have a watchable match in against a lot of folks. But it's not like I ever pimped Hase as a HOFer. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think if more people saw his run as AWA Champion they would be more open to admitting his flaws as Mr. Perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Edge carried the Smackdown territory for a couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 No one watches Smackdown so it doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Less people watched the AWA in 1987-1988 than Smackdown at any point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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