Dave Meltzer stuff

[NintendoLogic]

But some cultural products do export well. They may not be the ones that dinosaur lawmakers approve of, but that's neither here nor there. You're from New Zealand, right? In that case, you probably wouldn't know just how big the Nintendo Entertainment System and Sony Playstation were in America. And again, New Japan has done well in overseas markets in the past.

[ohtani's jacket]

Super Nintendo and Playstation were big everywhere, but that had more to do with Japanese technology than culture. New Japan being popular in Italy was quirky, but I'm not sure it fits the bill in terms of what Dave is talking about.

[El-P]

The point Dave is making is right. It's a pretty well known point and not a major relevation, but Japan does a poor job of exporting its cultural products. I'm not sure Dave could name the American cultural products that are big in Japan, but he knows that American movie stars and musicians are big draws here. As Dave said on the radio show, Japan doesn't even do a good job of exporting its cultural products inside Asia. Korea does laps around Japan when it comes to film, television and music. It's a common talking point here as Japan needs something to revive its flagging economy. Anime and video games are still seen as something of an embarrassment in terms of cultural exports, at least by the older lawmakers.

Exactly. What japanese pop culture big figure in term of music or cinema is also a big pop culture figure worldwide ? The answer is simple : none.

Even in the realm of movie fanatics for instance, where a guy like Takeshi Kitano is well known, most have no idea what status Kitano really has in Japan, he's mostly known in Europe as an arthouse director.

[FLIK]

New Japan, which was super popular in Italy in the early 80s on television during a boom period, but also a period where the television featured some of the biggest worldwide stars on a regular basis, failed in an attempt in that market a few years back.

In other words, if the product is good, it'll export well. If it isn't, it won't. It's not about culture.

 

You're ignoring the bold part as he def emphasised that them having a large crop of big name US/foreign talent played a big part in them being able to succede outside Japan.

[NintendoLogic]

Super Nintendo and Playstation were big everywhere, but that had more to do with Japanese technology than culture. New Japan being popular in Italy was quirky, but I'm not sure it fits the bill in terms of what Dave is talking about.

Not really. Outside of Japan and North America, the NES was actually outsold by the Sega Master System. But the SMS only moved 13 million units worldwide, so even in areas where it was big, it wasn't that big.

 

New Japan, which was super popular in Italy in the early 80s on television during a boom period, but also a period where the television featured some of the biggest worldwide stars on a regular basis, failed in an attempt in that market a few years back.

In other words, if the product is good, it'll export well. If it isn't, it won't. It's not about culture.

 

You're ignoring the bold part as he def emphasised that them having a large crop of big name US/foreign talent played a big part in them being able to succede outside Japan.

 

I don't see how this undermines my point. If The Rock signed with New Japan tomorrow, they'd have no trouble breaking into foreign markets.

 

An aside: given the current situation in Japan, why don't more Japanese wrestlers try to break into the US? At the very least, a solid run with the WWE would increase their bankability when they return to Japan. The biggest issue is probably the language barrier, but that's what Rosetta Stone is for.

[Russellmania]

Super Nintendo and Playstation were big everywhere, but that had more to do with Japanese technology than culture. New Japan being popular in Italy was quirky, but I'm not sure it fits the bill in terms of what Dave is talking about.

Not really. Outside of Japan and North America, the NES was actually outsold by the Sega Master System. But the SMS only moved 13 million units worldwide, so even in areas where it was big, it wasn't that big.

 

New Japan, which was super popular in Italy in the early 80s on television during a boom period, but also a period where the television featured some of the biggest worldwide stars on a regular basis, failed in an attempt in that market a few years back.

In other words, if the product is good, it'll export well. If it isn't, it won't. It's not about culture.

 

You're ignoring the bold part as he def emphasised that them having a large crop of big name US/foreign talent played a big part in them being able to succede outside Japan.

 

I don't see how this undermines my point. If The Rock signed with New Japan tomorrow, they'd have no trouble breaking into foreign markets.

 

An aside: given the current situation in Japan, why don't more Japanese wrestlers try to break into the US? At the very least, a solid run with the WWE would increase their bankability when they return to Japan. The biggest issue is probably the language barrier, but that's what Rosetta Stone is for.

 

Honestly the biggest issue is probably not the language barrier, it's probably racism. WWE doesn't have the greatest track record of treating Japanese dudes as anything other than comedy wrestlers.

[cm funk]

It's not racism, cultural jingoism is probably more accurate. When it comes to pop culture Americans want American crap. Just look at television, where there's this trend of taking British shows and remaking them, or the film industry where they take foreign movies and remake them mere years later. If there was something hugely popular in Japanese pop music that could have crossover appeal the record companies here would just copy it, rather than import it.

 

But even if New Japan wanted to take their concept of wrestling and remake it for an American audience I don't see it being successful. This country barely supports 2 major offices (and I'm being generous to TNA) and everything else plays to a very small, hardcore niche audience. That is the audience that New Japan would find in this country.

 

And video games and anime to pro-wrestling is apples and oranges. Video games are totally unique and Japanese products have exported well because Japan has been on the cutting edge of the technology. Plus a lot of the big games that have had success there and here had a lot of Western characters and concepts, or were designed in such a way that characters are essentially raceless. Anime is pretty much a niche thing except for a few occasions where it becomes a huge fad, and that's mostly because the audience is children and there's all sorts of crap they can sell. And again, Pokemon was the most successful anime crossover, and you could slap any language on top of those characters and say that's what they were. They could pass for American, French, Asian...whatever.

[NintendoLogic]

It's not racism, cultural jingoism is probably more accurate. When it comes to pop culture Americans want American crap. Just look at television, where there's this trend of taking British shows and remaking them, or the film industry where they take foreign movies and remake them mere years later. If there was something hugely popular in Japanese pop music that could have crossover appeal the record companies here would just copy it, rather than import it.

 

[goodhelmet]

It's not racism, cultural jingoism is probably more accurate. When it comes to pop culture Americans want American crap. Just look at television, where there's this trend of taking British shows and remaking them, or the film industry where they take foreign movies and remake them mere years later. If there was something hugely popular in Japanese pop music that could have crossover appeal the record companies here would just copy it, rather than import it.

 

 

 

British dudes copying American rock n roll and blues artists.

[cm funk]

I said Japanese pop music. British music is something else entirely.

[cm funk]

The only Japanese artists I know of with any popularity in the states are either underground hip hop/turntableists or doom metal rock bands like Boris, and that's all on a very small scale

[NintendoLogic]

British dudes copying American rock n roll and blues artists.

And puro started with Japanese dudes copying American wrestlers.

 

The only Japanese artists I know of with any popularity in the states are either underground hip hop/turntableists or doom metal rock bands like Boris, and that's all on a very small scale

Sure, but it's not like homegrown doom metal bands are tearing up the charts. It's true that foreign films generally don't do well in America, but plenty of foreign actors have become stars here. Which brings me back to my earlier point. I don't see why a Japanese wrestler with the right size and look couldn't make it in the WWE. Lucha doesn't have much of a history of drawing in the US, but Alberto Del Rio has gotten a push because he's tall and speaks English.

[cm funk]

Oh, the right Japanese wrestlers could absolutely be huge stars in WWE if given the right push. Heck, Taka and Tajiri were both really over at points and they didn't speak and were strictly midcard acts. I just don't think a Japanese centric promotion would get over well in this country.

[El-P]

It's not racism, cultural jingoism is probably more accurate. When it comes to pop culture Americans want American crap. Just look at television, where there's this trend of taking British shows and remaking them, or the film industry where they take foreign movies and remake them mere years later. If there was something hugely popular in Japanese pop music that could have crossover appeal the record companies here would just copy it, rather than import it.

 

 

 

British dudes copying American rock n roll and blues artists.

 

This isn't the same "copying" we're talking about.

[NintendoLogic]

Oh, the right Japanese wrestlers could absolutely be huge stars in WWE if given the right push. Heck, Taka and Tajiri were both really over at points and they didn't speak and were strictly midcard acts. I just don't think a Japanese centric promotion would get over well in this country.

Well, Japanese-centric promotions don't even really get over well in Japan these days.

[ohtani's jacket]

Super Nintendo and Playstation were big everywhere, but that had more to do with Japanese technology than culture. New Japan being popular in Italy was quirky, but I'm not sure it fits the bill in terms of what Dave is talking about.

Not really. Outside of Japan and North America, the NES was actually outsold by the Sega Master System. But the SMS only moved 13 million units worldwide, so even in areas where it was big, it wasn't that big.

I had a Sega Master System, but a lot of my friends had Nintendos. I don't think we even knew or cared that they came from Japan. Mario and Sonic and Alex Kidd don't exactly scream "Japan."

[El-P]

When I was a kid, I thought Sega was American, because Sonic sounded American to me. Dumb kid.

[goodhelmet]

It's not racism, cultural jingoism is probably more accurate. When it comes to pop culture Americans want American crap. Just look at television, where there's this trend of taking British shows and remaking them, or the film industry where they take foreign movies and remake them mere years later. If there was something hugely popular in Japanese pop music that could have crossover appeal the record companies here would just copy it, rather than import it.

 

 

 

British dudes copying American rock n roll and blues artists.

 

This isn't the same "copying" we're talking about.

 

I was pointing out the irony of America importing a couple of bands that were just copying American music in the first place. Much more interesting topic than if Japanese culture translates well overseas.

[cm funk]

That's kind of the reason I think the only Japanese wrestling that would get over in America would be something played for comedy like Hustle. An over the top parody of American wrestling could appeal to American sensibilities. The cultural climate would have to be right for it though, IE. at a time when WWE is doing great business.

[Loss]

What Will described is relevant, since pro wrestling is an American concept copied by Japan anyway.

[jdw]

The "WON Coverage of MMA" thread on the Torch Boards is mindnumbing. Smart of Wade to stay the hell out of it.

 

John

[jdw]

Any news on Dave and Yahoo?

 

John

[goodhelmet]

The "WON Coverage of MMA" thread on the Torch Boards is mindnumbing. Smart of Wade to stay the hell out of it.

 

John

Break it down for those of us who don't dare step foot there.

[jdw]

Several Torch posters hate how much coverage the WON gives to MMA, how little interest Dave has in Pro Wrestling, how excited he and Bryan get when talking about MMA on the talk show, etc, etc, standard decades old complaints etc.

 

Bruce stepped in with this funny one:

 

Sorry guys, but MMA and pro wrestling are the same business and to understand one you need to understand the other.

Which is a flawed defense for covering MMA if one things about it for 10 seconds, even if there is a big chunk of truth in sentence.

 

Then later back with:

 

Believe me, this isn't true. No one, no one, is more interested in all aspects of professional wrestling on a day to day, hour to hour basis than Dave Meltzer.

 

No one.

Which was a counter to someone saying Dave doesn't care much about pro wrestling anymore relative to MMA.

 

I don't mind Dave's coverage of MMA. Never have, and always have defended the space he devotes to it. I don't buy the MMA=Pro Wrestling meme (and variations of it) that have popped up over the years. But I don't have a problem with the MMA in the WON. I was around when people complained about the Japanese Wrestling in the WON... the Lucha in the WON... the ECW in the WON... the MMA in the WON. It's all old stuff.

 

John

[Death From Above]

It would be a real shame if the Japanese stuff hadn't been there in the old observers. A few interesting little tidbits have floated out when people post old Observers from time to time that would probably be just lost info without those.