The Thread Killer

I've said it before and I'll say it until the end of time...how anybody could look at the entire body of Vince Russo's "work" and NOT consider him to be the worst booker of all time - by a LANDSLIDE - is beyond me. I don't even see any rational argument against it.

I respectfully disagree regarding the quality of ROH right now - however, that might just be a problem that can be attributed to a weak talent pool. I guess the argument could be made that adding Joe would make the product better, not that he'd get brought down by the bad product. I would definitely buy any show that featured Joe vs. El Patron. Hell, he might be able to do some work with Hansen too, now that I think about it...

I have read various places that Joe has been very smart with his money, has invested in real estate and generates a good deal of income from rental properties he owns. If that is true, I am so happy to hear it, as a fan of his. It is so rare you hear of a guy who makes sound financial investments that will support them later when their career is over, or winding down. It depresses me to see guys who made good money in their prime reduced to whoring themselves out for signings and polaroids at scuzy indy shows for a few measly bucks. I have mixed feelings regarding Joe going to NXT. Remember, Joe was kind of considered one of the unholy trinity on the Indies, along with Punk and Bryan. Punk was a pain in the ass to deal with, and Bryan keeps fucking up their long term booking plans by having the audacity to get over almost on his own, despite WWE booking - through hard work and natural talent. I am just guessing that Vince and Co. must be very turned off anybody who comes from that scene with any type of buzz. We all know how much he hates anybody coming in with any sort of following that he can't take credit for creating. It seems like Joe would have two strikes against him coming in...not to mention the fact that he nowhere near fits their idea of a WWE Superstar when it comes to physique. Having said that, look at how well Steen and Generico seem to be doing in NXT. Maybe if Joe did a stint in NXT they could convince themselves that he was nothing until they repackaged him and taught him how to work WWE style, blah blah blah. As a fan being selfish, the last thing I want to see him do is go to ROH. They just suck so hard right now, with a few small exceptions. Look at the card for their upcoming 13th Anniversary fiasco for proof of that. One of their biggest shows, on PPV no less - and Hansen and Michael Elgin are in the Main Event? Ugh. I'd hate to see Joe dropped into that creative mess. But as a fan of him as a person, I'd like to see him go where he can make the most money with the most job satisfaction and the least likelyhood of injury - I'm just not sure where that would be. A lot of people seem to think Lucha Underground isn't an option since he has no real history in Mexico, ditto Japan - especially since NJPW seems to have reached their fill of foreign workers right now. Who knows? It will be very interesting to see where he ends up...

I saw this from Wrestlezone, from an interview with Alberto Del Rio, bitching about the money in WWE and I thought it was interesting... He's not the only former WWE guy to claim the pay isn't as great as people think it is either, is he?

I'd like that, to meet people from PWO at a SMASH show. Keep me in the loop if you guys want to do that. At the very least, I'm sure it will go a lot better than the last time I met somebody in person who I'd first met online. Stupid Chris Hansen. Thinks he's so big.

I am also a Toronto area guy and I just found this topic... My name is Dave. I became a wrestling fan on December 24, 1983. I was 13 years old, I was over at a friend's house and his Dad was watching wrestling. The Iron Sheik attacked Bob Backlund with those Iranian clubs he used to swing over his head, and I was hooked. I just turned 45 a couple of weeks ago. I grew up in (and still reside in) the Toronto area. I live about 20 minutes north of the city. Toronto was a huge hotbed of WWF action during the 80's, and I attended countless live events. They used to run Maple Leaf Gardens every month, and there was a string there for years where I never missed a show. If I remember correctly, the main event of the first show I saw at MLG was Steamboat vs. Muraco, and it went to a double count-out. I was at the famous "Big Event" at the CNE when Hulk Hogan fought Mr. Wonderful in front of 74,000 fans. This was a world record until WM III and is still the Canadian record for attendance. I also used to go to the TV tapings at the Civic Center in Brantford. I also attended a few of the legendary independent shows in Ontario put on by "Wildman" Dave McKigney. (For those of you who don't know him, he was the one running the independent show that Adrian Adonis was on his way to, when he was killed. McKigney and one of his other regulars were also killed in the crash.) There is an outstanding book about Dave McKigney and his battles with the WWF to run independent shows called Drawing Heat. This book pre-dated Foley's book by decades, and was one of the first books I ever heard of to pull back the curtain on Pro Wrestling. http://www.crowbarpress.com/cbp-books/10-dh.html I discovered something at The Wildman's shows - there was other Pro Wrestling out there, and generally I preferred it to the WWF. (I had never seen anything like Whipper Billy Watson Jr. vs. The Sheik at a WWF show, that's for sure.) I started reading the Apter mags, watching Quebec wrestling and any NWA/UWF I could find on TV, and even found a buddy who could send me World Class tapes from Texas. I was one of the few people who actually went to the show the NWA ran in Toronto in 1990, to see Ric Flair fight Lex Luger. I was so apathetic about the WWF that by the time WM 6 rolled around in Toronto, I didn't bother to go, even though I had friends who were going and could have easily done it. I was a Pro Wrestling fan, but never liked Hulk Hogan or Hulkamania. I discovered a whole new world when I went online. I used to write for 411 and The Shooters too, for a while. I think I first met Loss at the old Rantsylvania messageboard in 1999, which is how I circuitously ended up here at PWO. Thanks to the wonderful world of the interwebs, I discovered ECW and pretty much dropped WWF from my viewing habits and started going to ECW shows in Buffalo, and ordering tapes. I saw a few WWF shows during the Attitude era and even some WCW during the Monday Night Wars, but I was pretty much an ECW/FMW guy. I also attended a ton of indy shows during the nineties and was fortunate enough to see Edge and Christian before they were Edge and Christian. My personal favorite show from those years was seeing Terry Funk fight Sabu at a scuzzy Strip Joint out by the airport, in front of a handful of people. After ECW died, I got into ROH full on, and also discovered AJPW and King's Road style, which brought me hours and hours of enjoyment. I followed TNA during their weekly PPV period, but when they stopped that and moved to Fox Sports, they lost me because we didn't get that channel here. Eventually, I couldn't afford to keep buying ROH and I found their product started to gradually decline. I was really into NOAH, but they took a nose dive when it comes to quality too. Japan got me into Shoot Style, which got me into PRIDE, RINGS, Pancrase, etc. I was crazy into MMA for a while, but the UFC has really turned me off over the past couple of years with the insane expansion and mediocre shows. My fandom right now is pretty much at an all time low for my 32 years as a fan. I refuse to watch WWE, I haven't been impressed with what recent TNA I have seen, and the last couple of ROH shows I have been at, or seen have been a major letdown. I have seen a lot of Lucha Underground and I really liked it, and I loved WrestleKingdom 9, so maybe NJPW might re-kindle my interest. The other issue is that as a 45 year old guy, I no longer have any friends who watch wrestling, and I don't enjoy watching shows or attending live events by myself, so without a peer group to watch stuff with, Pro Wrestling has kind of faded from my life. I keep current, I read all the results and I lurk and occasionally post here, but aside from Lucha Underground and ordering any future NJPW PPV's, I will probably be a more nostalgic fan.

re: The Death of WCW One of the best things about that book is how upset it made Kevin Nash and Vince Russo, who both obviously read it and didn't like how they came across. They both got so crazy defensive about it, Nash whined about it in interviews and Russo has ranted about it on more than one occassion. It does read like a blog post, but not in a bad way. I'm not claiming it's Hemingway or anything, but it's not "Scott Keith bad" either. The bottom line is that a lot of the facts in that book can't be disputed and they are presented in an often humorous way.

You know, I would have thought she was implying Vince Russo, and Lord knows that would have made sense if she had been...but sadly she has given interviews - even recently - where she sings Russo's praises, defends him, and even goes so far as to say she won't rule out working with him again. So I don't think that is who she was talking about. I think she might have actually clued into the fact that Hogan and Bischoff came in promising her the world, took her for a ton of money, and contributed only two things to TNA...jack and shit.

The more I learn about Dixie Carter, the more I suspect she may be functionally retarded. My latest favorite is this gem... Dixie Carter on the one thing she would change from her past in TNA: “Oh wow, I’ve never been asked that question before! I think the thing I would change would be to realise that just because someone’s been in this business a long time, doesn’t mean that they have the magic silver bullet that’s going to change everything. People who’ve been doing this successfully in the past, and their experience, doesn’t necessarily mean that that will work today. Times have changed, viewing habits have changed, social media has changed so much about the world we live in today, and how we experience life. I think I would have not put so much stock in that, and would have looked beyond for fresher outside ideas earlier.” Translation: "Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff screwed me and I just figured it out." Here's one question I bet she does get asked all the time, by her family: "What the fuck did you do with all of our money?"

Whats everyones take on this? For years Ive always hated RD Reynolds for making that book as well as the wrestlecrap (His Opinion) stuff as just seems like they just take the piss out of stuff I enjoyed as a kid back in the day. Mind you Ive never read the books just heard about them through reviews and stuff. Might be a misconception on my part but I wouldnt want to read a book that makes me so angry id want to just toss it in a trash. My take is that you might want to actually read the book before deciding you hate the author for writing it. It's a fairly well researched and written book. A lot of it is opinion, but it is well constructed it and the theories put forward regarding the Death of WCW are well presented and hard to argue with. And it's a must have for anybody who hates Vince Russo. (So basically, any wrestling fan with a functioning brain.)

Would that be the "brand" which he has complained he can't find any sponsors for? He has given interviews whining that he can't get big name sponsors like other UFC fighters. Of course he claims that is because they take steroids. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a fat load with a mullet and a beard like a deranged hobo. Yeah, companies should actually be lining up to sponsor him or want him as a spokesperson.

I don't like stupid people who think they're clever, and Roy Nelson is dumber than a box of rocks. Did you not see the season he coached on The Ultimate Fighter? He's not just stupid, he's like...scary stupid. I don't much care for Dana White or buy into 99% of the shit he says, but he's right on the money when it comes to his opinion on Roy Nelson. I believe he has invoked Ron White when it comes to Nelson...specifically - you can't fix stupid.

I saw Tom Magee wrestle live at a WWF show in Brantford Ontario, back in the mid-late eighties. This would have been 86-88. He fought in a prelim match, against a prelim guy. I want to say it was Terry Gibbs, but I can't remember for sure. (I wish I had saved all my programs and ticket stubs from back then, I went to so many shows at Maple Leaf Gardens and the Maple Leaf Wrestling tapings in Brantford at the Civic Center.) I think this was the same show I went to where Billy Jack Haynes fought Hercules in a crazy bloody steel chain match. All I remember is that Tom Magee looked like Kerry Von Erich, and he was very agile, I remember being surprised at a couple of moves he did considering the size he was. I only saw him the once, but among the dozens of guys I saw over the countless shows I went to, he did stick in my memory. I was always surprised he never ended up on TV or anything. EDIT: Hey, look what I found! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7vyfm_tom-magee-vs-terry-gibbs_shortfilms Yep...that was the show I was at!

If that is true? Wow. Dixie is basically being told somebody would rather work for ROH and Lucha Underground than TNA.

Yeah...that is my feeling too. I don't really want to get into an argument about race, and it seemed like a debate that is going to drag on forever, but I really think you guys are WAY off base on this one.

There was a local Quebec promotor/wrestler named Frank Valois who I thought owned that footage. I used to work for a guy who knew the former play-by-play man Milt Avruskin http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2011/05/29/18209646.html who claimed that the tapes of that territory were floating around. I remember that territory from when I was a teenager. They had TV coverage in the Toronto area on Saturday afternoons. Dino Bravo, Rick Martel, Jaques, Raymond and Armand Rougeau, Steve DiSalvo, Bruiser Brody, Hercules Ayala, Abdullah The Butcher, Dr. D. David Shultz, The Road Warriors, Moondog Sailor White, The Great Samu...there was some good talent there. A couple of great managers too, Pretty Boy Floyd Creatchman and his Dad Eddie "The Brain" Creatchman. If I am not mistaken, it was run by a Montreal area wrestler named Gino Brito with Dino Bravo as a minority partner with the Rougeau family. His son (Gino Brito Jr.) was a wrestler as well, pushed as a Main Event level talent but he did not have Main Event level skills. I remember whenever Gino Brito Jr. would get involved in a big match he would look really out of place. As far as the ownership issue? Interesting question. There were always rumors that Gino Brito was in bed with the Montreal area mob as financial backers. Remember the famous Dynamite Kid/Jacques Rougeau story? One of the reasons DK never retaliated against Jacques was because Pat Patterson and Vince McMahon reportedly warned him that the Rougeau family knew people that could make Dynamite disappear. Also, remember the circumstances surrounding Dino Bravo's death...he apparently crossed his old wrestling partners on some sort of cigarette smuggling deal. If anybody wants to actually know something about that territory, I would suggest getting a hold of Greg Oliver from Slam Wrestling. He is the expert on all things Canadian Wrestling.

Did you see the season they coached against each other on the Ultimate Fighter - which was supposed to lead up to their fight before Rampage bailed out to go and make the A-Team? There was little to nothing likeable about Rampage during that season...especially his relentless bullying of Darrill Schoonover. (Well...maybe his making fun of Roy Nelson was pretty funny and likeable. But nobody likes Roy Nelson.) I think you are off base and reading too much into things with this whole "humble black guy vs. cocky black guy who doesn't know his place" theory to begin with, but at least an argument can be made for the theory when it comes to Jones and Cormier. I just don't see it at all when it comes to Jackson and Evans, sorry. We'll have to agree to disagree I think. Rampage is anything but a "humble black man who knows his place." He is one of the epic shit talkers of all time in MMA. If anything, Evans is the more humble and grounded of the two.

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place." Who are you speaking about here? Daniel Cormier vs. Jon Jones, but it equally could apply to Rampage Jackson vs. Rashad Evans. I could not disagree more. With Rampage and Rashad, I'm not sure which one would be considered "humble" and which one would be "cocky" since both have shown heaping helpings of both attributes in their respective careers...especially against each other.

There's a lot about that statement I disagree with. There's no arguing WWE is the #1 company, but that's in terms of exposure and finances. In terms of being the only source for pro wrestling in North America, well, that ignores the indies in America, Mexico, and Canada. It ignores CMLL, AAA, and Lucha Underground. It ignores Ring of Honor. It even ignores NXT, which may be WWE's developmental territory, but is a distinct product all its own. WWE may be the #1 company, but they aren't the only company, and there's a lot of great pro wrestling in North America, some of which isn't hard to find. I concede your point, my statement was poorly worded. I meant to imply that WWE is the most well known and easily accessible source for Pro Wrestling for the average consumer, and that for the standard fan looking for Pro Wrestling, the most obvious choice would be WWE. I should not have said "only" source, that was dumb.

You could be a card carrying Klan member and still find at least 5 valid reasons to dislike Jon Jones, without race ever entering into it. Anybody who dislikes him just because he's black is just being lazy and stupid about their reasons. Well, come to mention it...I guess that is pretty much racism defined, innit? But my point stands...there's plenty wrong with Jon Jones and no need for race to even be part of the discussion.

Here's my issue... There's no argument whatsoever that WWE is the #1 and only source for Pro Wrestling right now in North America. The only "alternatives" for any wrestling fan who still wants to watch wrestling, but gets sick of WWE, is either ROH or TNA. So let's say you're a WWE fan who looks up TNA for the first time. You see a guy with dark hair and a beard, giving a rambling "prophet like" promo, and he has a stable of guys who "follow" him. That screams Bray Wyatt imitation to me. If I'm a WWE fan who sees that, I doubt that will do much to sell TNA to me as an alternative - just like having Eric Young with his epic beard win the World Heavyweight Championship doing the classic underdog gimmick - at the exact same time WWE was doing it with Daniel Bryan. To me, it makes TNA look like a cheap copy of WWE, not an alternative. We have been having this same discussion in the Hall of Fame thread about Demolition being LOD knock-offs. In that thread, Loss made the point that even Ric Flair was a copy of Buddy Rogers - in wrestling everybody uses somebody else's gimmick to some degree. Hogan stole some of Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura's gimmicks, the list goes on and on. I don't disagree that James Storm is just as much a Kevin Sullivan imitation - but the problem is that when the #1 promotion in the world already has a underdog with an epic beard, or a crazy cult leader type, it's probably not a good idea to do anything even remotely similar if you want to come across as fresh, new, or especially an alternative. I like stuff like the X Division and the Six Sided Ring because at least it differentiates TNA from WWE. I also like the fact that a bunch of guys on their roster are new faces from places like the UK. Otherwise they may as well be: "Watch TNA: We have characters who either were in WWE or are vaguely like the characters you can see in WWE - only not as good!"

I haven't seen any TNA in years, but tonight I watched some on You Tube. I caught a very recent interview Mike Tenay did with James Storm. Is it just me...or are they trying to do some bearded cult leader thing with him? It really came off like a sad attempt to copy Bray Wyatt but I hope I`m wrong. They couldn`t be that sad and obvious, could they?

I thought it was much better than the similar matches they've had in ROH over the past year - it had more traditional wrestling at times and wasn't just non-stop SPOT-FU~! I don't get the NJPW/ROH fetish lately for 4 Way Tags. Too much going on for my tastes, no time to tell a story, it's just everybody trying to cram their spots in before the inevitable pile up on the outside after all the obvious planchas and suicide dives. I could never see that routine again and I'd live a long and happy life. I guess I prefer my tags either Old School Southern or Kings Road Heavyweight style. Also, I hate the Young Bucks with the intensity of a thousand burning suns. On the other hand, I LOVE the Time Splitters...they have made up for my sadness regarding the loss of the Motor City Machine Guns. Now having said all that - I thought this match was good, and based on it's structure, booking and placement on the card, did what it was designed to do.

My issue with this match was it's length and the abruptness of the finish. I thought it was building nicely, and I was really starting to get into it when - all of the sudden - it was over. I thought it could have easily gone another 7-10 minutes. That's what kept it from being very good/potentially great instead of fair/somewhat forgetable. I loved UWF/UWF-I/KINGDOM and Pancrase, RINGS etc. I had really been looking forward to this match and was mildly disappointed with it's placement on the card and lack of time. I would have prefered to see Saku go over too...Suzuki has always annoyed the hell out of me with his ridiculous facial expressions. He's like a joke I just never got. On a personal note, I would have been even happier to see them bring Kiyoshi Tamura in, if they were doing a UWF-I style match. What ever happened to that guy?

Yeah. I think Demolition were a fair to good team who carved out a half decent reputation in their own right, but they were so clearly LOD rip-offs in their inception. To deny that is just odd. You can easily argue that they rose above being saddled with a cheesy rip off gimmick and became a decent team in their own right. But I don't see any valid arugment for them not being an LOD rip-off initially.