The Thread Killer

I was there. It was...not so good. The booking was odd (not one, but two triple threat tag matches? Plus the Fatal 4 Way for the TV title didn't get anywhere near enough time) and Adam Cole is just awful. Seriously bad. I was getting nostalgic for Xavier. Worst of all were the terribly obnoxious ROH fans. The ones behind me and next to me were so annoying, I may never go to a live wrestling show again. There is nothing worse than a fan who thinks he is clever and witty, but really isn't. Even if the show had been good...which it wasn't...the fans would have ruined it for me. Being surrounded by those people has made me seriously question if I have outgrown being a wrestling fan after 31 years. ROH has really gone down since the last time I saw them live, at Northern Navigation in 2008.They won't be getting my business again any time soon.

I give you Goldberg & Mutoh vs. Kronik. So bad for so many reasons. It was the Main Event, it was just horrible. It was the match that didn't end, it just went on and on my friend. Some people starting watching it not knowing what it was, then they wanted to gouge their eyes out just because, it was the match that didn't end, it just went on and on my friend... A little bit of me died when I saw it, never to return.

I disagree. Two of the top contenders (Machida and Rua) were offered that fight, and turned it down. If there was a ranked contender who wanted the fight, and Sonnen got it over them, that would be one thing. (Like when Hendricks clearly deserved the shot at GSP but GSP wanted and got Diaz instead.) Dana White made it clear that Sonnen was the only one ready and willing to take that fight at that time. Everybody else had unreasonable demands which would have resulted in the fight being delayed by as many as 6-9 months.

THANK YOU! I was complaining about just those issues to somebody else a while back. To me, Edge's pathetic hammy facial expressions and terrible promos made me taking him seriously impossible, but I had never heard anybody else say the same thing. I was starting to think it was just me. I know I should have cheered for the hometown boy who made it big, but I could never see the big deal with Edge. I liked his stuff with Foley, but that was more down to Foley than Edge. Other than that? Pffft.

Damn you. I was not expecting to read that, and just did a massive Diet Coke spit-take across my living room.

I'm sorry but I seriously question the intelligence of somebody who thinks that fight was fixed. You can question why the hell Silva was so stupid, but it's practically impossible to make a legitimate argument about that fight being fixed. Only people who have very little exposure to seeing real, legit fights would think it was fixed, IMO.

Mike Sharpe has been one of the worst wrestlers when viewing the 80s. Just unbearable. Okay, listen...that is Canada's Greatest Athlete you're talking about. Show some respect. The man had a serious forearm injury, you can't expect all his matches to have been 5 star classics.

I have to disagree there. He came across as pretty natural and relaxed on the mic, in my opinion.

It's not so much the fact he was killed but the fact that him being killed resulted in a massive eulogy from Meltzer which helped to generate a myth of this great and legendary worker. The timing is arguably key: 1988. That was a time when a guy like Meltzer had a sizable audience but also a time when footage was not readily available and the tape trading scene wasn't what it was in, say, the late 90s. Received wisdom, once it is acquired, dies very hard. Look at Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask. The idea that that is a great match is almost hard-wired into the minds of at least two generations of fans. If Brody doesn't die, he doesn't acquire this mythical status. He probably has a run in early 90s WCW or something and is remembered by lots of people as being a shitty brawling guy not too much better than Jim Duggan. If Brody does die, he doesn't get Meltzer working overtime to put him over as an all-time great. Point being: most fans don't go back and watch old 80s territories, or All Japan footage from 1981. Most fans will remember seeing one or two Brody matches they were ok with and be happy to go on rep. That rep is absolutely connected with his death and its timing. I agree. Had Brody not died the way he had, I don't think he would be remembered the way he is now. Not that I don't agree with a lot of the points blueminister has made, though. Brody did have tons of charisma, natural ability and a great look. So much so that it has been copied too many times by the likes of Duggan, Nord, Foley, Terkay, etc. And as an aside...I like the DK vs. Tiger Mask matches...so pfffttthhh.

I don't think Brody ever had any serious discussions or negotiations with McMahon about coming into the WWF. His wife and Matysik don't mention it in the book, other than to say it would have probably happened at some point or another had he not died. I don't think Brody would have been willing to give up on Japan, and that would have been a condition of his signing with the WWF, I am sure. According to DK's book, he and Davey Boy had to agree to give up AJPW before McMahon would put the Tag Titles on them at WMII. One thing people do seem to agree on is that Baba was building towards Brody vs. Hansen when Brody was killed. I love the reaction of the crowd and announcers during this match. Check out the reaction at about 1:10 into that clip, when it becomes clear that Brody is going to tag in while Hansen is in the ring...you can tell AJPW fans were salivating at the potential of the Brody vs. Hansen dream match and rumor had it Baba was planning on giving it to them.

I was worried that my post would come across as if I was trying to justify or rationalize his murder. I wasn't, but I can see how it comes across like that. There is no excuse or justification for what happened to him, at all. However, there is an explanation for what happened to him. Part of that explanation involves his infamous behavior in locker rooms all over the world. My post was in reply to Ditch, saying how it is hard to be critical of Brody in some circles because of the fact he was murdered and the circumstances of his murder. The fact of the matter is that some people have used the circumstances of his death to try and re-write history or change the perceptions of Brody that existed prior to his murder. My point was that his murder was reprehensible and tragic, but it doesn't change the truth about who he was inside or outside the ring. I find the blatant attempts to deify and canonize the guy irritating - and I consider myself a fan.

That's the thing - Brody's case is unique because his murder was so closely tied in with his reputation and behavior. This is really delicate and I don't want to come across sounding like a total asshole here, (which I still might) but if you read that book, especially the first couple of chapters, it comes across as a real defense against anybody who has ever suggested that Brody was anything other than a victim of a random attack. I wasn't there, so this is all just information I have read or things I have seen or heard from interviews (especially with Tony Atlas, Terry Funk and Gary Hart) but from what I understand Jose Gonzalez was the booker in Puerto Rico and by all accounts, Brody was making his life miserable. Brody and Gonzalez had a history together, having worked together in the WWWF, where Brody used to allegedly treat Gonzalez like shit and stiff the hell out of him when they were in the ring together. When he ended up in the WWC, Brody was working for Gonzalez but apparently ignoring his directions and changing matches on the fly, in the ring. He was openly mocking Gonzalez in front of the other guys in the locker room, yelling at him and humiliating him in front of people, and going over his head all the time to Carlos Colon and Victor Jovica. There is even speculation that Brody was still stiffing Gonzalez in the ring so much that Gonzalez turned himself face so he wouldn't have to fight Brody. Rumor is that Gonzalez had a daughter who died, but he kept working instead of taking time off to mourn. At the same time, Colon and Jovica were putting pressure on him to "deal with" Brody and reign him in. Gonzalez snapped, and stabbed Brody to death in the locker room. The only point of contention has been whether or not Brody and Gonzalez were arguing at the time of the murder, or if Gonzalez just lost his shit and stabbed Brody unprovoked. The sad thing is, even Matysik doesn't dispute most of those facts. His point is that even though Brody had been bullying Gonzalez, it didn't justify murder, which of course is absolutely 100% true. However, I guess some people have pointed out over the years that Brody treated so many people like shit, and stiffed and bullied so many guys over so many years, it was bound to catch up to him at some point. Nobody reasonable has ever claimed Brody deserved to die, but the entire book by Matysik seems to be an attempt to justify Brody's behavior throughout his entire career, and excuse or explain it away. On top of that, you have a ton of guys (Mick Foley being one of the biggest ones) who never knew the guy that claim he was a huge influence. I think that anybody "in the business" who would try and be critical of Brody would most likely run into the argument that "No, he was a legend" or "Hey the poor guy was murdered" without taking into account the fact that the way he lived his life seems to have had something to do with why he was killed. Once again, I am not saying in any way, shape or form that he "deserved" to die but objectively I don't think you can ignore the precipitating factors and pretend it was a totally random act of violence, either. Even his own friends don't think that.

You hit the nail on the head with the word "deified." As a bunch of us discussed a while back here, Brody had Meltzer and Larry Matysik working full time from the moment Brody died to the present day to portray him as a legend among other things. On top of that, Matysik claims that he and Brody were Meltzer's first ever inside sources and were pretty much his first friends in the business, so I imagine that Meltzer still looks upon Brody as the Golden Goose. Bottom line is, if you read the book by Matysik, take some dramamine first, because it can get damn nauseating at times. Brody had a natural look, athletic gifts and God given abilities which could have made him a candidate for GOAT - easily. Look at the dude's size, flexibility and charisma. From where I sit, the problem was that he was so selfish (some would say paranoid) and refused to put other people over (or even sell for them) that it made the classic matches he was involved in few and far between. Considering his potential he could have been and should have been SO much better. I don't hate Brody, I have a ton of Brody matches in my collection, I enjoy his and Hansen's matches against The Funks, or his matches with Abby - for what they were. I would even go so far as to call myself a Brody fan, but I can be objective - I don't think he was even half as good as Matysik and Meltzer make him out to be. Once in a while somebody like Bobby Heenan will come out and say that Brody was a total asshole who made life miserable for people he worked with, but for most others it seems like a taboo subject to speak ill of a dead legend who has been deified from on high. That makes an objective conversation about his career difficult.

So is anybody following the whole "Kobashi retirement/bunch of big names might be leaving NOAH/NOAH might be folding or basically ending up as AJPW again" story, or is that being discussed elsewhere around here that I didn't notice?

I was at that show. Just saying. Carry on.

I am way out of the loop on my puro news, so I was surprised to hear that Takeshi Rikio retired at only 39 due to serious neck injuries. The last thing NOAH needs is to lose another main event level guy, but I am heartened to see a star smart enough to understand that there is more to life than wrestling, and get out while he still has his health. I wish Misawa had done the same, and I wish Kobashi would get that message too.

I remember Kane having at least one very good (not great, but very good) match with Kurt Angle, prior to their WM18 match. I am fairly sure the date of the match was November 1, 2001. I do recall being subsequently disappointed with their WM18 match based on the quality of this one, as were Kane and Angle, reportedly. Also, I remember really enjoying the brief but memorable Brothers of Destruction vs. Rikishi & Haku feud. I remember there being at least one old school wild brawl that ended up being a no contest, and a first blood match (which research shows me was on February 1, 2001) as well. The basis of this feud was how Kane and Taker were eliminated from the Rumble that year, and then Rikishi and Haku costing them the WWE Tag Titles. It wasn't a long drawn out feud, but it reminded me of the old Brody & Hansen vs. The Funk Brothers matches I loved from All Japan, just out of control Tag Team brawls. My nostalgia probably colored my perception of their quality, mind you. I am not claiming these were great matches, but I remember them being quite good.

Later on in this thread, when I have time I am going to post about my first house show, and some other noteworthy shows I've been to, but let me tell you about the time I saw Lex Luger beat Ric Flair fair and square in a world title match, that few people ever heard about. NWA @ The CNE Coliseum Toronto, Ontario - June 27, 1990 This show was noteworthy for a bunch of reasons. Firstly, since Jack Tunney was the Toronto promoter, the WWF had Toronto locked up tight for years and no other promoter could ever get anywhere close to running a show in Toronto. There is an outstanding book which partially covers this topic called "Drawing Heat" which I cannot recommend enough. It is the story of the infamous "Bearman" Dave McKigney who ran independent shows in and around the Toronto area. The Bearman was famous because he used to wrestle a bear, which once got loose and mauled his wife to death. He kept on wrestling, and was eventually killed in the same car accident that killed Adrian Adonis. If interested, you can now get an updated version of the book at Highspots, including a new chapter about the death of McKigney and Adonis. I have the original, but it was out of print for years. It gives an interesting insight into the Tunney family, and Original Sheik and how nuts he was too. So this show was one of the first that broke the WWF stranglehold on Toronto, so about 3,000 hardcore fans show up - not as many as the NWA/WCW were expecting. Why? The NWA/WCW had no current TV shows running in the Toronto market. Like...ZIP. Zilch. Nada. I found about the show from an ad in the paper. If you had a satellite dish (and in 1990, who did?) you could get TBS, but aside from that, all you could get was old re-runs of the WCW Power Hour run at 1:00 am, and they were MONTHS behind. Like, they were behind the Apter mags, that's how out of date they were. So the ring announcer tries to hype up the crowd, reminding them that you can catch WCW action on the Superstation, and the crowd starts booing him and throwing shit at him. I almost died laughing. They booked the show in Toronto, and their own ring announcer didn't know that Toronto fans couldn't get the Superstation, and we didn't get current NWA/WCW TV. That explained the small crowd, and why the crowd was dead for some of the matches...they had no idea who some of these people were, or only knew about them from the Apter mags, like my friends and I. Anyhow, as for the show... Mean Mark defeated Nick DeCarlo - first time I saw The Undertaker live, I guess! Brian Pillman defeated Dutch Mantell - Pillman was over HUGE from being on Stampede Wrestling for the years leading up to this, and Mantell played off it brilliantly, getting on the microphone and bashing Canada, and Pillman, etc. Tracey Smothers & Steve Armstrong defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane in a non-title match Rick & Scott Steiner defeated NWA Tag Team Champions Doom via disqualification The Junkyard Dog defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson in a non-title match - JYD was always over in Toronto but he was so damn big by this point he could barely move. NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated NWA World Champion Ric Flair in what turned out to be a non-title match... So get this...Luger gets Flair to submit in the torture rack, and the crowd loses it's shit...since this was NOT announced as a non-title match ahead of time. Then the ring announcer gets on the microphone and announces that the NWA World Heavyweight Championship CANNOT CHANGE HANDS IN CANADA. There was almost a riot, I swear. Good thing nobody told Harley Race that back on February 6, 1977 when he beat Terry Funk for the NWA World Heavweight Championship in Toronto. The next time WCW came to town, they drew around 500.

I hate to disagree Marty, but I distinctly remember the man being named the Invasion and Alliance MVP.

As I recall, the Main Event at Uncensored 1999, a Steel Cage match was quite good. If I remember correctly (and I might not be, since it was over 12 years ago and I haven't seen it since the night I saw it live) the match was a double turn, with Flair turning heel, Hogan turning face, and Flair going over. I recall being shocked at how much I enjoyed that match because I agree with DBA...Flair/Hogan matches usually disappointed, which they shouldn't have. I always chalked it up to Hogan being jealous of Flair's GOAT rep and not wanting him to look good - but anyhow - I remember Uncensored 99 being the exception to the Hogan/Flair "bad match" rule and being pretty good. If I am wrong or if others have seen it and disagree, feel free to chime in.

I have seen online today some fans saying that there is no way Brock could have legitimately lost that fight, so it must have been fixed. I have also seen the conspiracy theory floated that Lesnar threw the fight so he could back to the WWE and fight UT at WM, after their post match confrontation. There is so much wrong with both those theories that they call for the biggest facepalm gif in history.

Ugh, I was at that show. It was awful. There were a bunch of no shows, and I remember because of it, Koko B. Ware had to wrestle twice. *shudders* My favorite part was when Duggan tried to get a "USA" chant going...when he was fighting two Americans and a Canadian...in Toronto.

I suspect some of these releases may have also been Wellness related.