JerryvonKramer

Editing a show is a real time sink. I can only imagine how long a video would take, especially to the standard that Jay and the boys do it on OVW.

As I read this I got super excited but are you seeing it the way I am with a face Bockwinkel having to run through the Heenan family to finally get 5 minutes in a cage with the Brian? Pretty much, basically slot him into the Larry Z feud as Larry's manager. Ah, I remember about this now. Isn't that the match that goes 90 minutes or something ridiculous? Yeah, I know about that one. It was a holy grail match of mine for years and years and then I actually saw it om fan cam (pretty disappointing, even though it goes 10 mins). Pure phone it in stuff. But what I'm saying is that they never worked a proper program. Might even be an interesting fantasy booking exercise. I guess it would have to be 1991, and you'd have to delay the Virgil thing a while more.

I have hopefully erased the woolliness of including sentimental faves in the back 5-10. The problem with it, is that when I did my list without the system, I had literally about 20 guys I was trying to shoehorn into the "95 to 100" range. I'll preempt whatever remark Johnny will mutter to himself when he reads this: But that was the entire idea of the BIGLAV thing, to ensure each and every guy on the list had gotten due consideration and weren't put in on a whim.

America was a different place in 1985 too. We had yet to be overrun by the lib media brainwashing the masses. It was ok to love mom, apple pie, USA, the police and hate the Russians. This conversation needs not to happen and fast! They were definitely calling Sharpe a "wimp" in 1984.

Here's a few out of left field: Bruno vs. Backlund Bruno vs. Andre Bruno vs. Pedro Pedro vs. Andre Backlund vs. Andre Backlund vs. Pedro Hogan vs. Bruno Hogan vs. Backlund Arn vs. Ole Arn vs. Tully Bockwinkel vs. Heenan Terry vs. Dory (81 match wasn't a feud) DiBiase vs. Hennig DiBiase vs. Martel DiBiase vs. Steamboat DiBiase vs. Arn DiBiase vs. Tully DiBiase vs. Rude A lot of the above didn't happen because times were different.

Well he was pretty far down the totem pole. His gimmick was being called a "wimp" by fans. If he got title shots, he was a placeholder challenger a la Mr. Fuji. On another note: one thing I have to disagree on is Bill Watts as an announcer, I think he's legit great and would make my top 5 play-by-play guys, or top 5 colour for that matter.

I will watch a bunch of these fat guys soon, will be a fun way to break things up. And to make doubly sure I'm not dismissing them too easily. Might as well chuck in Demolition too. Andre, Blackwell and Vader should all make my list comfortably.

Ricky Steamboat is the slam dunk answer, if you've ever seen the stuff from 78, you'd now why I say that.

Can you give me some lost gems then?

Are you trying to be intentionally whimsical or is there a reason for that? I don't really see it with Gang. Yes, Scott Keith was too harsh on fat guys and yes, it led to guys like Gang being underrated. But ... Top 100 worker of all time? Revision can go too far. Gang has a large amount of disappointing matches in both WWF and WCW even allowing for giving credit to what he does well. The case has to be built out of UWF stuff and ... Bizarre as it may seem, Akeem stuff. It's not a top 100 case in my view.

I still think Taker should have turned heel and gone for some cheap wins to keep streak going. Like count out or DQ.

Has some decent performances in Japan, his 1982 WWF run is good. No chance for my list.

There is an existing Regal thread here. However, I don't want to confuse the general discussion with these ongoing reviews. The Masked Destroyer, Blackpool Carnival (1986) This is true old-school as in 19th century style carny stuff. As a dude on the mic in Blackpool Pleasure Beach -- a traditional working class holiday destination -- issues a member of the public vs. wrestler challenge. £100 to last three rounds. Is it a shoot or a worked shoot? The punters seem like true marks to me. Either way, this goes to the very roots of pro wrestling. Amazing they were still doing it in 1986. They are billing it as "American Style wrestling" ha ha. True carny stuff. Amazing footage. There are two wrestlers. The Mighty Quinn and The Masked Destroyer. The announcer claims that these guys are under contract with the WWF to take on any challenger. He he. We see a few different attempts, and I think it's always the same Scottish guy who steps forward. We get to see a match against a little guy. Clearly a work. Gorilla press slam sees him off. Now it's the big Scot Billy -- clearly a wrestler -- Masked Destroyer keeps him grounded. Stretches him. Billy is so clearly a worker that it is pretty hilarious. He throws working punches. Fairplay to Billy he's pretty over in Blackpool! Standing dropkick after a series of knees by Destroyer. Backdrop by Billy. Piledriver by Masked Destroyer! Billy's not getting up from that. This footage is an incredible piece of history. Not sure where Regal was, was he the first challenger? I thought he might be Masked Destoryer but looked too big and stacked to be him. Roy Regal vs. Marty Jones (WOS 9/3/1986) Regal is rocking a mullet here. Walton is so good at getting over the idea of Regal as a young hopeful going up against an incredibly seasoned pro. It may well be the purest form of kayfabe. Little comedy spot early as Regal goes down to the mat expecting Jones to run over him, but Jones goes down there with him to say hello. Jones delivers a vertical suplex at one point, which is a move I've not seen on World of Sport footage before. Round 2 and he hits a gut buster. Backslide. Billy Robinson backbreaker. And another. Dropkick. A lot more American or Japanese influence here. Regal can't get up after the dropkick, that's a KO loss. Pretty entertaining little bout. ** Steve Regal & Dave Larsen vs. Giant Haystacks (Reslo 1988) Ah, S4C, how I have not missed you. In Wales, we got S4C in place of Channel 4, and half of it was in Welsh. On the plus side, there were shows like Reslo and Scorio. The latter being a roundup of European football -- and our only chance of seeing football from Spain, Italy etc. back before it was common. On the other hand, in practice S4C mainly meant we got Friends at 12am instead of a reasonable hour, and mostly any good Channel 4 show was moved later because of the mandate to show Welsh-language programming. This is a handicap match. It was a thing at my school for a while to say "Giant Haystacks!" in a ridiculously exaggerated and high-pitched Welsh accent. It must have been from his appearances on Reslo. Regal's partner is Dave Larsen who I don't know much about. He was a veteran at this point. Pretty sure I heard the commentator call him "Docker Dave Larsen". Haystacks looks decent here dominating his two opponents. He worked his gimmick well. No sells most offense, and looks unbeatable with your standard big man offense. Splashes, boots to the throat, hip tosses. That sort of thing. Regal gets knocked out after a plucky attempt at a comeback. I do think Haystacks could have had a run against Hogan in this time frame. *1/2 Steve Regal vs. Tony St. Clair (Reslo 1988) This is a much more competitive affair than the Jones match. And worked much more in the British style, more tosses and mat counters. Regal looked good. ** Steve Regal & Robbie Brookside vs. Dave Duran & Jimmy Monroe (WOS 7/30/88) Duran and Monroe were calling themselves the Road Warriors. This was for All Star, not Joint. Walton isn't happy about the gloves the a Road Warriors are wearing. Live noticed it's the same ref as in most of the Joint bouts, Max Ward. Brookside has some nice European uppercuts, Regal hits an excellent clothesline at one point. They take the first fall with not much trouble. Heels take the second. A lot of suplexes from Monroe in the third. Not sure about his execution on the butterfly. Walton notes "use of the trunks" when he does the vertical. Basically a long face in peril sequence on Regal. Brookside comes in and takes the second fall after a hot tag. Entertaining match showing Regal as a young babyface, working very effectively. Didn't think much of the heels. **1/2 Steve Regal & Robbie Brookside vs. Kendo Nagasaki & "Blondie" Barrett (WOS 8/24/88) Barrett was calling himself the Rock n Roll Express. Nagasaki is a legend, but I can never be sure if it's actually him. Was this actually him? Both heels have managers here. Golden Boys, Regal and Brookside, are over, Both Regal and Brookside seem to have been watching Ricky Steamboat judging by the amount of deep arm drags early on. Both are good at them too. They were sort of like the British Rockers seemingly at this point. Barrett and Nagasaki are better and more over heels than Duran and Monroe and it really helps this match. This is quite a compelling bout until Barrett gets a KO after Brookside hits a missile dropkick which apparently means he is eliminated. Then it's 2 vs. 1 and silly season as Brookside somehow takes of Nagaskai's mask revealing his face and eyes. This allows Nagasaki to use his hypnotic powers to put Brookside in a trance. First he orders him to give his mask back and then he gets Brookside to attack Regal. Post-match, Brookside gets on the mic to protest that something funny was going on. Very fun bit of bullshit, and the match before it was the best from this early Regal run so far. *** Steve Regal vs. Terry Rudge (Germany 10/7/88) Handheld. CWA. Rudge is a good old-fashioned British bruiser. Classic rulebreaker. Gritty bout with some stuff uppercuts. Rudge has some painful looking spots in his bag of heel tricks. Stamping on the fingers, for example. Regal plays underdog babyface very well. Worth seeking out. ***1/2

I'd like to nominate the original (I.e British) Kendo Nagasaki via OJ's reviews.

I think you mean Wrestlemania 8 right, not 13? VIII

We do have Jumbo at minor tour shows. Our friend in Japan has been uploading them. It's probably worth noting too that MSG, Boston and Philly shows aren't "minor" in the sense of being small.

It's quite exciting to see where OJ is going to land as we get closer to the title switch.

When did I say I didn't want anyone to have points? Bret looked low (as it turned out, an adding up error), so I pulled him out for a rework. Several people pressed to have Kid, Taker and Diesel for Bret. I included them and it gave him a big score. Then you started arguing to have names taken off and I said I'm not changing his score again. It would be ironic if Bret ended up in my top ten after I've ruled him out of being top tier so many times, but I'm not actively trying to make anyone do well or do poorly.

Considering Bret and Shawn didn't work that well together, I don't see how it should be a point in Bret's favour for versatility. The Lawler match in '93 involved Doink whom you haven't listed and is offset by how awful their "Kiss My Foot" match was. The Brain Busters match was good, but a throw away bout and not a series like Brain Busters vs. The Rockers and not really proof that Bret matched up particularly well with Arn and Tully. There may be some underrated Islanders stuff out there, but with all due respect to Kelly and Martin a single podcast is not really a huge platform for memorable matches. Likewise, I don't think Bret vs. Tiger Mask is a well-remembered match. I can admit that the variety category is a bit of a fudge. If you read the description in the OP again ... This is a backdoor way of acknowledging some of those out-of-ring aspects of wrestling that are really important and which undeniably affect what goes on in the ring too. Bret vs. Lawler matches might not have been classics, but both guys were incredibly over in the feud, so it was effective pro wrestling. Does that mean Hogan will be getting Piper, Bundy, Andre, Savage and Warrior? Yet it does. Hogan has a good chance of capping out for variety. He had that career, indie favourite #234 working in high school gyms in front of 209 people didn't. I think it needs to be reflected somewhere. And I'd argue it is all still "in ring" because people remember the matches. Yes, this give massive advantages to guys who were very over and who were world champs. But that's pro wrestling.

Footage works in both ways. Look at the variety ratings for guys like Ivan and Wahoo, they are low because we only have so many of their good matches on tape. All the years of strap matches and Texas Death brawls they must have had at the Omni and other major arenas and we don't have them. If we had the entire careers of Ivan or Wahoo on tape, I'm positive they'd both have 10s for their variety scores and 20+ opponents. As it is, they are hurt by the lack of tape. Bret is the flip side that, where we have so much on tape that people are arguing about what to include and not include. And after it all he's ended up with 18 opponents and a score of 9 in that category. That doesn't answer Loss's question though: BIGLAV tends to reward the positive. However, there are places where I can register negatives. For example, Dory's lack of charisma is registered in his poor intangibles rating. My view is that people give disproportionate weight to negatives and allow it to colour their overall ratings far too much. For example, in the case of Dory, his lack of charisma is used to jettison his entire case. To me that sort of thinking makes the list too close to a list of favourites and too far away from a measure of which 100 wrestlers had the best careers overall. This is why I have six categories of equal weight. In the case of Bret dogging it on house shows. You are right it's difficult to register it. He has 18 memorable opponents on PPV and TV, so in a sense the strength of that work is counter balancing the weakness of the house show matches. Just as the strength of Flair's peak years are countering the weaknesses of the last ten years of his career. You're right though that consistency is not really being measured by my system, which benefits a guy like Bret and arguably hurts guys like Arn and Regal. I guess at this stage I have to just write that off and say "well I don't value consistency as much as these other things". And I think, generally, I don't. The existence of poor albums like Knocked Out Loaded or throwaway ones like Under the Red Sky does absolutely nothing in my mind to diminish the Bob Dylan GOAT case. And so I guess Bret dogging it on matches that don't mean a lot in the overall scheme of things, does not diminish his case much either. I don't know if I really think that, but I think it's what I'm going to run with for this list.

Bret's score is not changing again.

The split in 83 is to do with Ted aligning himself with Skandor Akbar and Duggan being patriotic and not wanting to be un-American.

As I recall it is something to do with Duggan getting a pair of cuff links as a prize and Ted taking particular exception.

Will explained this very well on a podcast once, it's somewhere on here: http://placetobenation.com/pro-wrestling-super-show-the-wrestler-snapshot-7-on-ted-dibiase-part-1-july-15-2014/ Don't forget that Ted goes to GCW and is not in Midsouth for much of 1984.

Tully Blanchard Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for slingshot suplex) = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-89 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as company ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Southwest, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Magnum TA, 2. Dusty, 3. Steamboat, 4. Luger / Windham, 5. Hart Foundation, 6. Rockers, 7. Road Warriors, 8. Rock n Roll Express, 9. Garvin, 10. Wahoo Variety = 10 opponents = 5 34 Ron Garvin Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being a such a stiff bastard) = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 82-87 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Canada, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Lanny Poffo, 2. Savage, 3. Flair, 4. Valentine, 5. Tully, 6. Midnight Express, 7. Rougeaus Variety = 7 opponents = 3 25 Wahoo McDaniel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for CHOPS) = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Bockwinkel, 3. Ernie Ladd, 4. Johnny Valentine, 5. Greg Valentine, 6. Magnum TA, 7. Tully Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Ricky Steamboat Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for arm drag) = 9 Intangibles 4 Great matches 9 Length of Peak 78-94 = 16 years = 9 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, Japan, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Flair, 2. Tully, 3. The Sheik, 4. Arn / Larry, 5. Rude, 6. Slaughter / Kernodle, 7. The Funks, 8. Savage, 9. Bret, 10. Austin / Pillman, 11. Luger, 12. Windham, 13. Vader, 14. Briscos, 15. Orton Jr., 16. Jake, 17. Regal, 18. Jericho Variety = 18 opponents = 9 49 Barry Windham Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-93 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Flair, 2. Luger, 3. Arn, 4. Tully, 5. Pillman, 6. Sting / Steiners, 7. Murdoch, 8. Midnight Express, 8. Steamboat, 9. 2 Cold Scorpio, 10. Regal Variety = 10 opponents = 5 33 Ivan Koloff Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 69-85 = 16 years = 9 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Bruno, 2. Dusty, 3. Rock n Rolls, 4. Backlund, 5. Paul Orndorff, 6. Buzz Sawyer, 7. Pedro Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Vader Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7 Intangibles 6 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 86-00= 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work shoot style +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura Variety = 19 opponents = 10 43