JerryvonKramer

As someone who has literally just been exposed to lucha for the first time properly TODAY. Here are some questions that would be great to have answered in this thread: 1. What are the major promotions? Is there an equivalent to a lucha WWF / NJPW and a lucha WCW / AJPW? What are the other important promotions? What are the major indies? 2. Who are the really big stars historically and now? Is there an equivalent of a Hogan or a Rock? Or even of a Flair or a Jumbo? 3. Who are the pimped workers both historically and now? I think the answers to these questions would make the lucha that is cropping up on the yearbooks easier to navigate in terms of knowledge and expectations.

What's the deal with Rayo de Jalisco, Jr.? How come he's been WWA champ since 2003?!

I haven't listened to this yet, but ... does Dylan cry about the Buddy Rose vote percentage at any point?

I swear Sherri is packing extra pounds there in early 90. Macho's crown looks not a million miles away from the Burger King's plastic crown. Effective promo from both. Sherri comes across like she really hates Sapphire.

Now Flair flips over to his "Carolina Flair" persona to introduce Sting ... a tiny bit of foreshadowing maybe? A slight hint of heeliness? Call it audience training but I can only see Sting as a total mug here. He must be getting set up, he MUST be. Arn is a great promo.

Ha ha ha, Scott Steiner looks like a naughty little boy here. Solie compares winning a PWI award to winning a superbowl ring. Steiner says he'll cherish the award for a lifetime, wonder if he still has it. Flair -- yet again in face "Minnesotta Flair" mode with his lower, subdued "serious" voice -- sincerely puts over how honoured he is to win the award.

You can tell Flair is a face here. He's got his "Minnesota Flair" hairstyle and way of speaking. He's wearing college gear. It's like whenever Flair is a face he rewinds back to 1983. If I was Sting, I probably wouldn't accept that offer. Would you?

Can't really believe WCW were running this angle in 1990. I was actually rooting for Sullivan here, Norman deserved to have the crap kicked out him imo.

Ha ha ha ha ha Superb dick heel promo. Really liked the straight-laced Dave Brown here too. His vague disease and looks to the side help to make this even greater. However, Lawler's mullet is atrocious. I like Eddie Marlin as an authority figure and this angle of Lawler not having the pull in the USWA that he did in the CWA is really interesting. This is a great back and forth. Then when King Cobra comes out Lawler's insideously racist jibes really help to stoke this feud even further. The psychology of a heel asking for a no DQ match is a bit strange -- but this is nonetheless a great segment. Can't help but feel Cobra's performance wasn't up to everyone else's here though.

Wow Dustin is young here. I'm not familiar with Memphis or USWA but was Lawler meant to be a heel at this stage? Gary Young gives a good scumbag bullying older heel promo here with some very, very dark undertones. "You was the mistake that shoulda never happened". On no planet and in no state, however, should Young be considered "gorgeous".

This is like in Batman whenever the rogues gallery get together. What an awesome bunch of villains. Heenan's "I'm a massive heel" face near the start is awesome. Sherri seems bigger than normal here by at least like 30 or 40lbs. Let's see who each of them are bringing to the Rumble: Sherri - Macho King Hart: Honky Tonk Man, Dino Bravo, Earthquake Slick: Akeem Mr. Fuji: Powers of Pain Heenan: Haku, Andre, Ravishing Rick Rude Forget about it, I know which line-up I'd pick.

Fulton vs. Robert Gibson would be an argument I'd like to see. From what I've seen, Fulton brought more to the Fantastics than Gibson brought to the RnRs.

My first comment here was "why is Rick Martel dressed as Inspector Gadget" but see someone has already said that. Chad / soup23 is totally right, I have major man-love for Ventura on commentary and this segment is no exception. He's with his best partner here too, Vince, play off each other so well. "He should be arrested for that McMahon ... Personally, I think he should be doing that to one of your suits, see how you like it". It's amazing just how over Beefcake was in 90. Vince: Now you're talking class. Jesse: Yeah, when it looks like your down the soup line with the homeless. Ha ha ha. WWF did this sort of shit better than anyone.

Did anyone here used to watch Prisoner Cell Block H? The range of slightly lesbian-y haircuts on display here reminds me of that. I've never seen any Joshi period. Hotta is just fucking vicious here in the early going. Her kicks are insane -- doesn't the fact that she's basically a man give her an unfair advantage though? Half-crab by Hokuto on Mitta looks really painful. The (I'm assuming) heels give Mitta a real good working over in this stretch sequence. The screaming teenage girls are nuts, feel like I'm watching the wrestling equivalent of Manga. Ha ha. Hokuto's matwork all looks like it really hurts and Mitta's screaming puts it over. Jesus the teenage girls are singing now. If my wife walked in now she'd wonder what the fuck I'm watching here. Hot tag to Yamada. Belly-to-belly. Sleeper. Hotta's not looking so tough all of a sudden. Wow that's just magnificent selling of the sleeper! Possibly the greatest ever. Fuck, double sleeper now, the teenage girls are losing it! Head scissors from Mitta. Hotta is basically dead and tags out. Slapsies now and Hokuto is having none of it at all. That's one mean bitch. You get the impression that she could just beat the shit out of Mitta. Sleeper on Mitta. Hokuto looks like she's pulling her head off. Sleeper from Hotta on Yamada now, revenge time. German! Gets 2. Faces comes back and roll up Hotta. Thought that was it! UNBELIEVABLE. Mitta gets in some cool offense on Hokuto including a great double underarm suplex. Hokuto gets the pin after a nasty looking dropkick from the top rope. I really enjoyed this, excellent match and a great first look at Joshi for me. At least a **** in my book, if not more. This is pro wrestling!

Now this is interesting. Two different worlds colliding. I've seen a ton of Footloose (AJ set) and a ton of Fantastics (Mid South, NWA), I really rate Tommy Rogers as a worker, and Kawada left a good impression on the AJ set. Rogers has lovely hair here. Fuyuki's face is basically exactly the same as Greg Valentine's only younger and Japanese. Rogers's matwork is surprisingly smart and well worked here, not something I associate with him. A lot of blow-job babyface stuff in the early part of this match, double dropkicks and all that. Love the clotheslines into a back suplex from the Fantastics, then a great assisted frogspalsh from the top rope from Rogers. Kawada gives Rogers a really brutal kick to the head at one point. Nice. Tombstone reveral fucking ruled. I like how Footloose turn up the violence. Nice snap suplex from Kawada. Knee from the top from Fulton looks nasty and the piledriver he follows it up with. Fallaway slam! Shades of Tatanka there! Kawada doesn't have many of his teeth does he. Stare down between Fulton and Fuyuki is cool and I like how they stiff the crap out of each other. Hottag to Rogers and a powerslam. This is a good match. Double suplex from the Fantastics. Footloose catch them trying the frogsplash spot again. Powerbomb! Shit. German suplex for the three! Properly good match, at least **** for me.

Also, was Valentine in the Dream Team by 84? If so, a major part of Albano's character was as a manager of tag teams, so from that point of view it would have made sense.

Blassie was acutally just managing Sheik in 84, until Volkoff came in.

Gurreros seemed to win the first fall too easily. Ref was allowing an awful lot of double teaming there. Mando has got to be the most minor-league of the Guerrero brothers, but he looked alright here, like a poor man's Manny Fernandez. Blue Demon has one of those Koko B. Ware-style big asses, thick built. Action between him and Mando in the third fall looked sloppy to me. Santo continues to look great. And Eddy doesn't seem anywhere NEAR as young or green as one might expect in 1990. The Mando mask thing was pathetic in my view, sort of trick that wouldn't even work in the Loony Tunes. The fact it did work brings this down for me, ridiciulous. How stupid is Blue Demon meant to be?

Cool backbreaker by Blue Panther, I liked that. 2nd fall is rather short. Guerrera came out as being the most interesting guy there. 3rd fall and Hamada vs. Casas is cool and stiff. Everything Santo does seems super silky smooth to me. Good introductory match.

Oh hold on, woops, it's 2/3 falls is it? Ha ha. Well that was my review of the first fall!

Total lucha virgin here. Opening segment between Asai and Blue Panther a bit "showy" for me. Faster paced segment beteen Hamada and Guerrara better. Then Santo vs. Casas seemed very smooth, as if the two men were acutally attached with a piece of rope. Shots to the crowd are distracting. Liked the little hug. MVP for me here was Santo, he looked pretty amazing to me. Didn't like Asai's flippy flippy antics throughout the match, look too stagey and unrealistic for me. Hamada came across as badass. Was having some trouble telling the difference between Blue Panther and Guerrara in the middle part of the match. There were some pretty cool spots during this match though, and worked much faster than the very little lucha I've seen before. Bodes well.

My, my music hits me so hard, makes me say oh my lord! MC Hammer on the menu is a nice touch. My god this was an unexpected start. Utterly bizarre.

I'll be basing my rankings mainly on how well wrestlers perform in skits.

Awesome! My set has arrived!

It's June 12th, 1984! And we're here once again for TNT! Alfred mentions Vince's Idi Amin reference from the last episode. Still think that's so bizarre. They are talking about Big John Studd. There'll be a segment on Paul Orndorff and a match of his against SD Jones ... Orndorff vs Jones. Massive Paula chant. Gene and Alfred in the booth. Orndorff refuses to take his robe off untilt the fans stop with the Paul chants. A woman in the crowd cackles like a witch. Crossbody from Jones. Orndorff stalls and then gets on top. This is a very typical WWF-style match, Orndorff's elbows look precise and vicious. Big comeback from Jones now, Piledriver from Orndorff and that's all she wrote. Alfred says that it's a shame that Jones lost because he's been trying to position himself as a world title contender. I reckon Alfred just says the first thing that comes into his head. Video of Orndorff training. "No matter how hard you train, you'll never look like me, so get that out of your minds". Ha ha. He's in a gym and has some members of the public with him. He points to a slightly overweight woman and says "obviously, you need to quit eating". This gym looks like the gayest possible place imaginable, the 80s hair and moustaches on the men aren't helping matters. Orndorff shows some punks how to do some curls while admiring his own biceps. He gets one of the punks to do some reps and keeps taunting him "you'll never be like me". Great heeling. A rather large woman is at one of the machines. "Don't you have any pride in yourself? No you don't otherwise you wouldn't look like this. It's disgusting. I can't believe you've walked in here looking like that". The woman just takes this abuse and smiles inanely. "This woman is so far gone, so far overweight, that I don't think there's anything that can be done about it, to tell you the truth", says Orndorff, "I can see that she's still got all her teeth, most fat women I know don't have all their teeth -- so I will say that". Ha ha ha ha. This goes on a few more minutes. She tries to get his attention by touching his arm. Orndorff goes nuts: "GET OFF OF ME YOU FAT PIG! Don't ever put your hands on me! Don't ever let me see you in a gym again, you hog!" Amazing. Alfred is impressed with Orndorff's dedication to training. That's all you've got to say Alfred? Vince is excited to introduce -- and he gives it the big Italian -- Salvatore Bellomo! I can confirm that this was not the chap in the last episode in the Andre match, if Ricky Jackson is right, I'm pretty sure that that was Frank Williams. Vince says that "Salvatroe Bellomo" is a name with a certain sort of flair. Bellomo speaks FIVE different languages. Judging by his English, I'm not sure how great an achievement that is. Vince says that the transition from the European style to the American catch-as-catch-can style must have been difficult. Video package now: It's Salvatore Bellomo vs. Ron Shaw. Shaw gets some offense in to start. But he misses an elbow to let Bellomo in. Standing dropkick, two arm drags. Vince is on commentary here and seems to speak with at least TWO different voices here -- one a sort of fast-talking play-by-play guy, the other in his cheesy TNT voice. Weird. Is this the 70s style Vince jdw always talks about? Gene Okerlund is also here. The ref is very fat. Back suplex from Bellomo. Shaw comes back with some more basic offense. Bellomo puts a leg stretch on Shaw -- I call it that, Shaw is sitting cross-legged and Bellomo kneedrops ontop of the legs, looks painful. Shaw comes back again -- I assumed he was a jobber, but he's getting more than his fair share of this match. Bellomo, of course, gets the 3 count. He looked alright to be honest. Vince mentions that Bellomo has a few unusual hobbies outside of wrestling, including ship building. He means the little wood and paper ships inside of bottles. Alfred is in the process of trying to make one himself. This month's WWF magazine has one you can cut out and that's the one they are making. Bellomo is very mild-mannered and has zero charisma. This is a very boring segment as Bellomo shows us different ships he's made. Alfred says "I guess you could say his ships come home". You can see why Bellomo quickly became a jobber in this setting. The timing for his move was all wrong: he was a retrograde, backwards-looking hire for Vince, trying to emulate a Pedro Morales or Bruno Sammartino effect, but by 1983-4 the time was too late for that. By 85, Bellomo and the entire genre of the "ethnic hero" wrestler were basically ancient history so his slide down the card was inevitable. We're taken to MSG now and Gorilla Monsoon is our commentator with Mean Gene. Speaking of dated ethnic heroes, it's the Polish power Ivan Putski taking on Roddy Piper. Putski is actually looking in great shape and seems like he's spent 3-weeks straight under a sunbed. Putski is not impressed by the bagpipes and fanfare with which Piper enters. Piper tells the fans to kiss his ass and then shouts abuse at Putski. A lot of clubbering from Putski to start. This is a real scrap from the get go. Piper goes to the eyes before a face flop. The bagpipes start playing again outside the ring. Slow hulk up from Putski and more wild clubbering, in the fray the ref catches a punch and it seems Putski has been DQed. Terrible match. Putski's flurry of punches look like shit as well. Oh yes! The mail has arrived! Here we go. Love the mailbag. From Wetplanes, NY: "Dear TNT, I have two questions I would like to have the answers for. 1. Is Lou Albano going to manage the Somoans again? Afterall, they were world champions with him telling them what to do, and 2. Will the Hulk ever give a title match to Don Muraco now he has the Captain behind him? Signed, Lester Bailey" I reckon ol' Lester was a heel fan. Vince thinks that Albano has problems with the Somoans. As far as the Hulk goes, Vince has this to say: "Mr. Muraco has a long, hard climb back up to the top rung of the ladder. If you'll recall Mr. Muraco did not retire in any way but he decided to, well, go back to his native Sunset Beach in Hawaii and take it easy for a while." That, my friends, is what they call in the business "a burial". From Santiago, CA: "Dear Vince, sometime ago when I was living in California, I used to go to Los Angeles to the Olympic Stadium to watch wrestling. Did Hulk Hogan wrestle there about five years ago? And is it true that he once played lead guitar with his own group? I think he's the greatest ever. Could you show some of his matches on TNT? Lisa Perez" Vince: "Hulk plays bass guitar as a matter of fact". Hey! he didn't answer the question about LA! Our next guest is Classie Freddie Blassie. Vince talks Blassie up as being a great wrestler in his day. Blassie says that most of his success was a result of his own hard work. We're taking a trip down memory lane as we go ... back to the archives. Freddie Blassie vs. Baron Leone from the Hollywood legion stadium. Jesus Christ it's black and white. Well this is a treat. The original commentary too, god knows who. Blassie gets Leone in a head scissors and cranks nastily on his neck. Leone stands up, still in the head scissors. He drops Blassie down almost in the powerbomb position. Blassie keeps the head scissors on. Another mini-power bomb, but Blassie keeps the hold on. He goes to the eyes to stop Leone struggle. Sneaky jab to the face. You can hear individual fans shouting things. Leone goes to a head stand and tries to work his way out of it. He arches over so his feet are on Blassie's head but STILL he keeps the head scissors on. Finally, Leone breaks the hold and applies a toehold to Blassie. They lock up again. Blassie gets a headlock on. Three snapmares from Blassie and then a neckbreaker! That gets him a three. But that's only the first fall! WOW, really good match from what we saw of it. Blassie mentions that that match was from 1952. I'm in legimitate shock by how good that was. Blassie has an old belt with him -- the Pacific Coast Heavyweight title. Vince mentions that the one title that always eluded him was the WWF title. Blassie said he wanted it more than life itself, but he did get it through the Iron Sheik. We get a video of the Iron Sheik vs. Hulk Hogan now. JIP during a terrific gutwrench suplex from Sheik. 2 count. Camel clutch. Hulk up. Big foot. Leg drop. Winner and NEW World Heavyweight Champion, Hulk Hogan! Blassie is angry. Says they were "jobbed" out of the title. That they'd trained for and were expecting Backlund, that they'd signed for a match with Backlund, not Hogan. Blassie said the Sheik will destroy Hogan. Vince starts saying "well the Sheik achieved what you failed to do from a personal standpoint", but Blassie is hot now: "KEEP SAYING IT! I failed! I failed! I failed!" This is terrific. Blassie says that the Aytollah himself told the Sheik that Blassie should now be known as the "Ayotollah of America". "Go ahead", growls Blassie, "sneer about that!" Vince is being amazingly smarmy in this segment, slowly winding up Blassie. This is probably the best interview segment I've seen so far on TNT. There's a big gong. "What's that?!" Blassie shouts. "Perhaps you've been gonged, Mr. Blassie", says Vince wryly and we go into a break. The gong was for Mr. Fuji who is here. Vince says that he's perhaps the greatest Japanese wrestler in WWF history. Fuji is wondering what the hell Salvatore is still doing making those little paper ships. "What's the matter with you?", he says, "Perhaps you have no girlfriend?" ha ha ha ha "For your type of people, the Japanese, we call them sissy" Unbelievable. Vince asks him how he compares himself to other wrestlers in the WWF. Fuji says he's number 1. Video package now. Mr. Fuji vs. Nick DeCarlo. WHOOOO? Vince is commentating in his early 80s style. Mentions that DeCarlo is a veteran in his own right. Fuji goes through his salt ritual. I think Pat Patterson is with Vince here. Slam by Fuji, Banzai from the second rope, and that's 3. Guessing DeCarlo was just a jobber at this stage in his career -- must admit I've never heard of him. Back to the studio and Fuji is doing his whole routine. Vince screws up his face. Alfred: "It's always difficult to understand the inscrutible East but Mr. Fuji is not inscrutible, he smiles and laughs, he enjoys other people's suffering". "Very true", says Fuji, "when Americans suffer, I just giggle". He has a big surprise he claims. A tradtionally dressed Japanese woman dances with a fan on a mat in front of a screen with a rising sun on it and a gong. There is some Japanese singing. This shit can't be Fuji's surprise surely? Surely not. This sucks. We go to a break. As we come back, Lord Alfred is in a robe sitting on the mat. Fuji wants them to enjoy Japanese hospitality. The woman takes Vince's shoes off, Fuji says the geisha girl will do anything he says. She takes Vince's jacket off. He's wearing a nice waist-coat I notice. She puts a silk robe on him. Vince thanks her, Fuji tells him that it's not customery to thank the geisha girl. She puts some white socks on him and Alfred starts cracking up. You can tell Fuji is absolutely loving this. They sit at the table and the geisha girl serves some sake. Vince notes how large Fuji's drink is. Ha ha. "Bottoms up". Fuji gets the geisha girl to massage him and scolds her in Japanese. "It appears they have more customs than anyone else in the world", says Alfred. Vince asks Fuji if he likes American customs. Fuji goes on a mysogenistic rant about how American wives aren't obedient. The geisha girl spills some sake and Fuji loses his shit and starts shouting at her. He's angry and says he's going to punish her. Fucking hell, 1984, look at this stuff. Fuji karate chops the table. Back at the sofas and Fuji is still pissed off. Vince says they weren't offended and wants to talk about Fuji's new career as a manager. Video now of Fuji with Don Muraco, former IC champ vs. Billy Travis. Stomach breaker on Travis. Snapmare. Front headlock. Gene and Alfred talk about Muraco's "sabbatical". Travis takes a nasty bump to the outside. Fuji is in his bowler hat and tails. Powerslam from Muraco but he doesn't pin him. Wants to punish him. Misses a dropkick. Back to the studio. Vince says, "Mr. Fuji, you're right in the pinaccle of your wrestling career, why a manager?" Fuji laughs and says some incoherent things before shouting BANZAI. Vince introduces his next guest, Big John Studd. Wow, big guy. Studd: "how does it feel to shake a man's hand eh? First real man you've met all day eh?" Big John Studd vs. Salvatore Bellomo. Think I know who's going over here. Bellomo seems fatter here and somehow ... womanly. He looks like a woman. Studd towers over him. Throws him down to the mat several times. Throws him to a turnbuckle. Very brief comeback from Bellomo but Studd gets an elbow drop for the 3 in what is a basic squash. Back to the studio for analysis and Vince weirdly asks Studd what would have happened if he'd been more scientific in that match. What sort of question is that?! Salvatore Bellomo is still in the corner making paper ships, what a total loser. Vince says that Studd is second only to Andre. Studd says he's going to destroy the myth of Andre. He bets Vince $10,000 that he can benchpress more than Andre. Vince says it's not about benchpressing ... Andre is still undefeated. Vince brings up Hogan. Studd says that Hogan just isn't as big as he is. He reckons people tell him that he's one person who could probably beat Hogan. Vince says that you need luck too. Studd says luck has nothing to do with it. Salvatore Bellomo shouts that he got lucky in their match (yeah right!). Studd goes over to Bellomo, "you have no business putting on wrestling boots, you belong here just making these boats". Studd knocks one of the boats with his finger. Bellomo really mildly says "don't ever touch my boats" Ohhhhhh. Studd says he has no fat on his body, unluck Alfred in his entire career! He shouts at Vince "you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you got lucky!" Studd says he wants to have a title shot against Hogan, but Hogan is scared. Aw dammit, I was hoping he was going to destroy Bellomo's gay paper ships. Video review roundup now: Jesse Ventura vs. Ron Shaw. Jesse has a long beard here. Some basic offense from Ventura, punches to the small of the back. Shaw takes a tumble to outside. Slammed into the apron by Ventura. Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas vs. Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch. Shine segment as Johnson gives the heels some armdrags. Slam on Adonis, another armdrag and an armbar. Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch vs. Tony Garea and SD Jones. Murdoch has Garea in a headlock. Shoulder block. Abdominal strethc. Double teaming on Garea now as the ref stops Jones coming in. Snapmare. Elbow drop. 2 count. Adonis in. Flying mare. Knee drop. Nasty shinbreaker. Vince references the fact that Tony Garea is a many-time co-holder of the tag titles and might want to think about his choice of partner next time. Poor SD Jones! Vince wants to see what progress Bollomo has made on his ships. He's finished his masterpiece. Mild Bellomo dedicates the ship to Vince and all the crew. They both shake his hand and Vince wishes him "all the best of luck". What the fuck? Surreal. And that's it for another episode. Seriously, track down that Blassie vs. Leone match if you can, the one fall shown here is really good.