WingedEagle

...no, I really don't see the sense in that, at all. Why would you want to pay money just to "play along", rather than express your genuine feelings? And all these theories ignore the fact that Cena gets VASTLY different reactions in different places and times. If "it's cool to boo Cena, it's just part of the show" were truly the root cause, then you'd get a much more consistent treatment of him, instead of the heavily polarized response he inspires from various crowds. If people's genuine feelings were contempt or even worse apathy of Cena then business should crater with him constantly featured. They'd presumably not pay for that.

Because of the business he produces relative to everyone else on the roster. If they really, truly thought this guy was the shits and couldn't stand him I would think business would reflect that.

Do people anywhere really hate Cena? For quite a while its felt like booing him is just what you do at the live shows. But what kind of heat is there for him beyond an otherwise apparently pavlovian response?

Did LU always want Ricochet to come in under the mask with that gimmick? I thought I recalled seeing that it was part of a compromise that would let him work elsewhere without having to do so as LU talent, but could absolutely be imagining that. On another front, did Brian Cage ever get a serious look from WWE? He obviously has the body despite being perhaps a tad shorter than they'd want. While he won't make anyone's short list for best workers in the world, I've yet to see a match of his in LU or PWG that isn't at least fun and entertaining. Pretty limited selling although I'm not sure how much he's been asked to do there, but he always keeps things interesting. Almost like an indy-monster/heavyweight version of the Young Bucks.

I don't think he or anyone is suggesting 4.5 is near perfect. You just need a way to mark something better than your standard very good 4 star affair from a 5, which is rightfully used so sparingly that it is well beyond comparison to a 4.5.

Yeah I remember being more amped for this match than anything at the time other than Sting/Hogan. Could not wait for this up until the bell. And then of course it didn't approach the build or the expectations. Not that it was in any way terrible, but kind of like expecting Peter Luger's and ending up at Outback. You're having a solid meal only you can't help but think about what you thought you'd be eating. The booking here coming just a few weeks after Mania also didn't help. Do we know if that was the working plan for a while or a late call?

I think the first Cena match is at worst Top 3 in the company. The second and third iterations absolutely don't hold up on that level as they really didn't add anything new to the meat or booking of the matches, but were still very good, four star affairs in my book. I also really liked the Balor title change in Japan and thought he put him over very effectively. Beyond that, I haven't found the rest of his run to be much better than your standard 3-3.5 star, solidly long Raw match. Easily behind Cena, Brock, Rollins and Reigns when it comes to top level matches this year and probably Cesaro and another name or 2 I'm forgetting with respect to volume. Perhaps somewhat unfairly penalized by how blazingly hot those first few weeks were leading to and coming off of the first Cena match, but I haven't been blown away by anything since that time.

No. Looking at all of the Misawa & Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue tags, the only ones that ever felt remotely long were when they went a full 60. Tag league finals, 6/1/93, 5/21/94, 6/9/95, none of those feel like anything approaching a chore. Just the best in class from that or many other eras. No doubt they are not short and if you want 20-25 minutes these matches will usually not be your sweet spot. But I can't think of many matches that length that are so gripping the whole way.

My quick thought is he doesn't get that high, but I sure wouldn't try to talk myself out of it if that's where he stands after an initial ranking.

Its super bizarre and yet the only conclusion you can come to after watching the matches.

Parv, great to see you dig into some random stuff from this period, BUT -- don't forget to revisit the 80s. I'm with you on just about everything here, but would urge that you give Bret/Austin at Survivor Series another look down the road. Its worth it. Eddy/Rey and Wyatt/Shield never reached anything approaching MOTY level for me that right about the four star level. Solid, but never saw the epic all-timers that others did. Curious to see you try on some other Shield 6-man tags, particularly the TLC one and others with Bryan in the mix.

The Steiner tags -- Beach Blast '92 & Clash '92.

Not sure that I can see anyone over Cena in WWE this year. What makes his 2015 so great is how he's made just about everything and everyone he's touched that much more interesting -- from Brock & Rollins at the Rumble to Rusev to the US Title, to Cesaro, to Zayn, to Owens to Rollins to Jon Fucking Stewart. Brock's been far and away the best part of WWE when there, which is never, but take away Cena and this year is hard to fathom.

All I've seen is the Park stuff and Muertes. Probably for good reason. Is there another match that even approaches this stuff?

Bryan: He seems like an absolute lock based on work alone and his record in the WON awards. If 17 Most Outstandings don't matter here then its tough to see how you can make a case for anyone based on a single factor. I know it can be done, and certainly believe that that a beyond significant drawing record should be enough based upon the impact that a huge draw can have on the very viability of a company and by extension the entire industry. Which in a very roundabout way gets us to Bryan's record as a draw. Based solely on a rough recollection he did better than average on top in ROH as champion/headliner. In his case perhaps that helps some voters who value that aspect of a candidacy. Personally I've yet to hear the case for anyone deserving consideration, much less induction, into the HOF based upon drawing on the indys. Until someone is responsible for an indy growing beyond that base I'm just not interested. It may not be fair, but earn a promotion to the major leagues and leave your mark there. However, I think Bryan offers enough on that stage for those grasping for something beyond ring work. He headlined Wrestlemania 30 and his role there very likely saved the show from the perspective of how it came off to a worldwide audience, and may have been responsible for it drawing the buyrate it did (arguable that it did over 600k buys because of network concerns, but I think its tough to conclusively say this was or wasn't attributable to Bryan). But we're talking about the draw and focus of a Mania, which I look at like a Finals or Super Bowl MVP. When you factor in repeat winners there have been far less than 31. Being on that list shouldn't put you in the HOF, but it should be enough to earn you consideration. Then again, if you don't think Bryan was one of the 5-10 best workers of the last 10-15 years than this moot and nothing else he did should put him over the hump. Orton: More than Batista, perhaps a base case for what the WON HOF ceiling is for a non-Cena WWE #2. The best thing I can say about him is that in almost any other era, a sustained run as arguably one of the few biggest performers in the top company in the country should be a strong enough case for inclusion. It doesn't here, even if that doesn't feel fair. Nakamura: Will unquestionably see a huge bump based on NJPW coverage the last few years. Wrestle Kingdom isn't Mania, and he hasn't been top 5 in the world for a decade at this point. Not at all shutting the door on him, but feels like a couple more years are needed to cement it. Styles: I simply haven't watched enough TNA to fairly judge him, which is something I hope to do over the next year. Easily my Most Outstanding for 2015 and deserving of major kudos for getting over as a foreigner in Japan the last 2 years. But again, no real points in my book for drawing in ROH or anywhere on the indys, so will need to feel out just where the work ranks as that seems the meat of his candidacy at this point.

They were definitely a tag team. Really enjoyed DDP almost throughout his WCW run, even in this chapter. Bigelow was a name that still excited me from his late 80s/early 90s WWF run, but as a unit they did nothing. Never loved Kanyon once the Mortis mask came off.

AA in the top 10 and Brock in the top 25. Can't see any chance I rate the enforcah that high, could see Brock anywhere from 10-15 spots higher or lower, but I love it all. ARN ANDUHSUN!

One day they need to work a blood angle and have Nigel freak out on air about hep. ~MONEY~

What about the '07 return match?

Somehow Bryan Alvarez is more annoying and abrasive than any WWE broadcaster.

I will never support a crowd pulling off chants about itself and simply working to get itself over, but if you're in the ring...do something about it. If you have a script to follow and can't call an audible to bring them in, that sucks. But I can't imagine a crowd is going to be so into marking out for itself that it'll completely ignore something awesome happening right before its eyes.

Gotta be.

We can't be that lucky.

Jerry... are you saying you were right two years ago or are right now? I disagree with modern Jerry but agree with old Jerry. I'm still legit confused by JVK's point. Not disagreeing -- legit not sure what the conclusion is. Ha my bad -- I thought we were talking about your theory on Cena and his # of world title reigns. I'm fully on board with the main event talk and agree with you 100%

Jerry... are you saying you were right two years ago or are right now? I disagree with modern Jerry but agree with old Jerry. I'm still legit confused by JVK's point. Not disagreeing -- legit not sure what the conclusion is.