WingedEagle

I thought Flair was demanding a first class ticket to have it reopened.

I like the way you put that. You watch some guys and it looks like its completely effortless and that they're putting their all into everything they do. Others, they're on the clock.

Its not for everyone. I'm a pretty big sucker for it as well. Sometimes I'd rather do without it as I might get more out of other matches which, absent the context, stakes and background that contribute to that "big match" thing, offer something special in their own right. But it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes I need to give a damn going into it. But I'm definitely a tad envious of not having it count.

Check out Okada in the recent G1 match where he sells the leg to the point that he doesn't even make it across the ring after being whipped into the ropes. Sure, maybe he'll pull something out like a dropkick or other offense for the transition, but he's got to take back control at some point. I haven't noticed him ignoring bodypart work, and if anything, like NintendoLogic pointed out, he'll sometimes go overboard to get such work across. Goodhelmet, I'll try to check in later or tomorrow with some more thoughts on Tanahashi -- work & holidays for the next couple days will likely tie me up more than I'd like and almost certainly prevent me from rewatching some matches I'd like to. A few points for now: *Tremendous world title main event style match. I like a heavyweight who can sell a body part (the arm for Suzuki) bump his tail off (for Kojima, Okada & Ishii) in an effort to make any challenger look like a powerhouse, while also making anyone (Devitt, Karl Anderson) look like a credible opponent. * Big Spots -- he has his like anyone else, but in no way prostitutes them and saves them for moments in a match where they'll either mean something or allow for a block/reversal to set up a run for his opponent. * Offensive Diversity -- He'll bust out a variety of spots at different points in a match, employing aerial strikes, flying moves in & out of the ring, a couple suplexes he'll break out to great effect in setting up his closing stretch. I don't know what a properly executed dragon screw feels like, but he does a damn good job using it to the leg and arm and continuing to hone in on that body part with kicks and dropkicks (to the leg) or elbows and slams to the arm. * Charisma -- Maybe I'm alone, but having watched him in this many title matches and how he sells and works the long match (and yeah, its partly booking, but only so many guys can be booked to have the time and liberties associated with the top spot), but I think his facials, athleticism and ability to work through a long match is spectacular. They've got spots but aren't spotty. They've sometimes got wrestling, sometimes have flying, but aren't stereotypical to those styles. He's able to mix in a variety of spots and styles around opponents mentioned above who have different strengths, all the while building them up as as likely to take him down and keeping things interesting around selling, near falls and a smooth, exciting, usually hot finish with a ton of big moves and near falls. I like hot finishing stretches with false finishes. Those are good things. His strikes? Nothing special. I don't cringe when I see them for good or bad. They just don't stand out. If they were open hand strikes that missed by 6 inches and were repeatedly thrown, it just doesn't bother me. I love a great puncher and appreciate it when there's something excellent on that level going on. If its not that, its part of the match and not something that will likely add to or take away from my ability to enjoy the match.

Even Coppola had to leave some scenes on the cutting room floor.

Which match was that? 04/21/93 Taue & Fuchi & Ogawa vs Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi. Aired 05/09/93 in JIP form. Full version is on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EiixzcHsQw Gotta watch is eyes and expression closely in the post match as he's quick with it and doesn't make a production number over it. Taue is does try to get across in the post match their coming partnership, and is less subtle. Thanks. I'll definitely make a note to check that out when I get to that part of the '93 yearbook. Which if I'm lucky will be before the end of the year

Which match was that?

Interesting, I thought part of the issue with the new FS/FX channels were their placement. I've got TWC here in NY as well, where USA has been at 16/716 (HD) for quite some time. FS1 is 123, FXX is 124. That's sandwiched in between Jewish Life TV, Golf Channel and NBC Sports on the front end, and Fox Deportes, Lifetime Women and MTV2 on the back end. FS1 HD is 774, whereas for most channels higher in the listings (like USA), the HD version is just the SD channel preceded by 7 (i.e ESPN -- 28/728, FX - 10/710, USA, etc.).

I don't think Vince gives a shit about "FS1" bidding. He cares about "Fox" bidding. He really doesn't care too much about which Fox channel he airs on. John No concerns about the placement of FS1 on the dial vs. USA? Assuming its an issue, how much extra do they need to pull in in rights to compensate for a channel that's not as easily found as USA and the consequences for ratings / PPV that it may cause? Obviously we're at the stage where TV money is probably more important than PPV, but I'd think this issue is at least batted around in discussion.

Cool. I think you're wrong and massively overstating any case you've made in this thread, which consisted of two actual points and lots of potshots. Best of luck if you think otherwise.

I guess you win, Dylan. Screaming loudly, hanging your hat on your daughter's striking skills and going out of your way to snap at people is clearly the mature way to discuss any topic. You are correct. You should ignore me and anyone else you disagree with right away.

Agreed, his work on the arm was a lot more effective there than his leg work often is -- though you've got the Suzuki match (obviously aided by a world class performance from Suzuki) and I believe the G1 draw where he also worked over Okada's leg, where I thought Okada sold the absolute hell out of it. Hopefully I'm not mixing it up with another Okada match from the G1.

Perhaps that's my issue as well. I don't mind stiffness when built into the match and can even appreciate it as a different version of a spotfest, but its just not at all an important criteria to me, especially when it comes to punching or head shots.

How is this: Not subject to the exact same flaw as your chief contention with my argument? Tanahashi's strikes are junk to you. Because in your eyes your 10 year old daughter is better and a segment of the NJ roster is intent on nearly stiffing each other as opposed to working punches. Whether that's because you don't buy that his opponent is hurt, or because you have a more critical eye and can see him actually missing his strikes as opposed to delivering those on the level of a Lawler or HOF-type striker, I do not know. I also don't care. But again, let's not troll. It belongs firstly in the sense that you haven't in any way qualified your attempt to put out such rankings with the fact that in perhaps many cases, you're basing your entire evaluation on perhaps less than 30 or 60 minutes worth of work for some people. Whether you've watched more than someone else who isn't touting their rankings of wrestlers and matches is irrelevant. You're doing that. Secondly, its relevant because you've compared Tanahashi to all of the greats on the South Carolina and surrounding indy scene who do what he does better than him. I could watch the CFl. I could go to Rucker Park, tune into some NBDL games or watch QMJHL or MLS for my sports fix. I don't. I prefer to watch the elites in these fields do what they do. Are their exceptions? Yes. Are there reasons why certain talent in wrestling doesn't make it to the major league level at a greater proportion to actual sports Yes. But you're swimming against the current if your argument is that the minor leagues in wrestling present a superior product. Which was a point you brought up with respect to Tanahashi. Again, I loved the Suzuki match. I also thought this was unquestionably moreso due to Suzuki's performance than Tanahashi's. There were 2 wrestlers in the match. Aren't the odds likely that one will contribute more to the match than the other? You also said the match was a classic, but beyond acknowledging that Suzuki had more to do with it, said that: I'm still waiting for the explanation of how Tanahashi was the broomstick carried to this classic.

Plant my flag firmly in the not a fan camp as far as last night's show. Opening was fine, Orton/Cody was really good and I always enjoy AJ's antics. I'm generally not a Show fan, but this was stomach turning material. Its funny how the outlook is so different though when you're looking towards a long term story like we've presumably got here with Bryan. This type of show mid-year last year or earlier this year would feel like a calamity. Now its just an off-night and part of the big picture.

Exactly. Didn't look back on their prior shows when it came out, because it didn't sound markedly different from their regularly reported numbers.

Best I can do is that its felt like an even more dramatic version of Punk/Cena when Punk had the belt -- Cena was closing out most TV's and PPV, and while Okada was closing out most before the G1, Tanahashi's matches always felt bigger and seem to be the bigger draw. The guy's the ace over there right now and while they've booked Okada as though he belongs on that level (before some questionable, if predictable calls in the G1), he's just not there yet.

However, Also, Finally, So which is it? Do you want to troll or do you want to say Tanahashi's strikes suck and I don't know better because I haven't fought your daughter? I also don't want to troll. Which is why I'm going to ignore this point and not include what I initially typed. If you think most indy wrestlers that you seek out in all corners of the world are better than Hiroshi Tanahashi, we should just agree to disagree. Yet in the same breath: If I'm missing the point here, correct me, but it sounds like you do enjoy guys stiffing the hell out of each other and can't tolerate it when on the same show someone else fails to bring their strikes to that level. Maybe I'm lucky in that after watching Goto/Shibata/Ishii I can then catch a Tanahashi match later in the night and not find that it exposes anything other than good wrestling. I couldn't agree more. But this is you arbitrarily choosing what offense you find cool and calling what you don't trash rather than an objective analysis of said offense or merely stating that it isn't for you. No issues if you don't want to watch much NJ. But what you've described above is someone who's watched all TV main events, and the PPVs either partially or in a couple cases almost completely. That doesn't sound very thorough for someone looking to rank the top 500 wrestlers in the world. Again, the point here is not to tell you to spend more time watching wrestling. But that sounds roughly like a couple hours of NJ every month, give or take a bit (August probably heavier due to the G1). Is that enough to have fully fleshed out opinions on the roster?

Moving this here from the Sasaki thread -- Let me get this straight. The match was a true classic in your eyes, yet only one of the participants had anything to do with it? That kind of statement can probably stand on its own quite strongly, but let's flesh it out a bit. Let's assume we both find the structure of the match stellar -- the body part work, transitions, the absence of any pinfall attempts until the finish. Since you think the match was a classic, I assume you think Suzuki did a masterful job of selling his leg. I know I did. But if Tanahashi's offense was really that poor, how is this match a classic? If Suzuki was selling dragon screws, elbows to the knee and other offense so preposterous that it looked absurd, is the match really that great? If Tanahashi is ignoring Suzuki's offense, not selling his arm at all and constantly working his comebacks as though he didn't sustain any damage, despite crisp and believable offense from Suzuki, what is so fantastic about the match? I don't see how you have a classic where one guy is in your eyes simply avoiding crapping himself. I can see pointing to Sasaki and that style as a forerunner of some of the Goto, Ishii, Shibata, et al. style that's out there, but what does it have to do with the matches put on by Tanahashi, Suzuki, Okada, Naito, Kojima, and just about every other heavyweight?

Definitely quite the statement. Looking back on ECW years later, the nature of their product was such that the matches/angles/stories all kind of blended together, with the Lawler/Cornette shows at the Arena arguably the peak. I don't remember looking back quite that fondly on this but you definitely have piqued my interest.

I've got to rewatch a bunch of this. I crapped on PG-13 at the time because I didn't know them, they came from Memphis and didn't fit what I wanted ECW to be. In other words, for all the right reasons. So yeah, I owe their run another chance.

Sounds great. Glad to see someone is laboring today. To keep it on point, I'll be avoiding doing my best Kensuke while the wife tries to get me to watch Scandal, and then disc 26 of the '92 Yearbook.

This is going to be fun. Maybe later today I'll look at it from a full ballot perspective but a couple quick thoughts for now. WOTY -- I don't know if anyone is drawing enough in Mexico to make a difference as far as WOTY goes, but it seems like you've basically got Cena, Bryan (last quarter could put him over the top) and Tanahashi. I'm a big fan of Okada but at this point he feels more like someone having great matches holding Tanahashi's belt while getting his seasoning. But everyone understands who the top draw is. Most Outstanding -- Bryan & Tanahashi are my 1-2. Tanahashi has more top-shelf big matches, but I give Bryan the edge for quantity based on putting out great matches almost every week whereas Tana was able to save his for the monthly PPs plus G1. MOTY -- Incredibly tough this year. The best I've seen stateside were the 2 Summerslam main events. My favorites in Japan were Nakamura/Sakuraba from the Tokyo Dome, the Tanahashi/Okada title change, as well as Tanahashi/Ishii and Nakamura/Ibushi from the G1. LA Park vs. Dr. Wagner also belongs in the conversation. Shout out to the Shield, as a few of those TV 6 mans probably rose to MOTYC level, but simply aren't going to get that kind of love when there are at least clearly 2 superior matches in the promotion this year. But for a few months they were killing it.