WingedEagle

May have been better? Will absolutely be checking that out tomorrow afternoon. I assume I'll track them down on youtube and go chronologically unless there's something else you think I should mix in there. OJ, thanks for the heads up about the prior matches. Will def look into those as well.

While they're not as extensive as what you're looking for, I think Meltzer did a pretty good bio on Rikidozn around the turn of the century under the premise that he was the most important wrestler of the 20th century. He also did a nice, albeit brief, history of NJ in one of the issues around the time of I believe the '96 G1. Hopefully someone else can point us towards something more detailed, but you can't go wrong with those.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually. Any in particular you'd recommend? Definitely want to check them out if they're even close to this one.

That's a shame. Seemed to set up Wagner/Terry and then a rematch of this classic.

It is my current MOTY even after watching Summerslam and the Lucero title matches. I tend to prefer lucha brawls over title matches so it got the nod for me. I can definitely see it, it really was that out of this world. The Summerslam matches win out for me because I watch the TV so I came into & out of them with more of an interest in the stakes, but this was on the same level as far as not giving you a second to turn your eyes away. What was the deal with the finish and what it was building?

I thought Flair was demanding a first class ticket to have it reopened.

I like the way you put that. You watch some guys and it looks like its completely effortless and that they're putting their all into everything they do. Others, they're on the clock.

Its not for everyone. I'm a pretty big sucker for it as well. Sometimes I'd rather do without it as I might get more out of other matches which, absent the context, stakes and background that contribute to that "big match" thing, offer something special in their own right. But it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes I need to give a damn going into it. But I'm definitely a tad envious of not having it count.

Check out Okada in the recent G1 match where he sells the leg to the point that he doesn't even make it across the ring after being whipped into the ropes. Sure, maybe he'll pull something out like a dropkick or other offense for the transition, but he's got to take back control at some point. I haven't noticed him ignoring bodypart work, and if anything, like NintendoLogic pointed out, he'll sometimes go overboard to get such work across. Goodhelmet, I'll try to check in later or tomorrow with some more thoughts on Tanahashi -- work & holidays for the next couple days will likely tie me up more than I'd like and almost certainly prevent me from rewatching some matches I'd like to. A few points for now: *Tremendous world title main event style match. I like a heavyweight who can sell a body part (the arm for Suzuki) bump his tail off (for Kojima, Okada & Ishii) in an effort to make any challenger look like a powerhouse, while also making anyone (Devitt, Karl Anderson) look like a credible opponent. * Big Spots -- he has his like anyone else, but in no way prostitutes them and saves them for moments in a match where they'll either mean something or allow for a block/reversal to set up a run for his opponent. * Offensive Diversity -- He'll bust out a variety of spots at different points in a match, employing aerial strikes, flying moves in & out of the ring, a couple suplexes he'll break out to great effect in setting up his closing stretch. I don't know what a properly executed dragon screw feels like, but he does a damn good job using it to the leg and arm and continuing to hone in on that body part with kicks and dropkicks (to the leg) or elbows and slams to the arm. * Charisma -- Maybe I'm alone, but having watched him in this many title matches and how he sells and works the long match (and yeah, its partly booking, but only so many guys can be booked to have the time and liberties associated with the top spot), but I think his facials, athleticism and ability to work through a long match is spectacular. They've got spots but aren't spotty. They've sometimes got wrestling, sometimes have flying, but aren't stereotypical to those styles. He's able to mix in a variety of spots and styles around opponents mentioned above who have different strengths, all the while building them up as as likely to take him down and keeping things interesting around selling, near falls and a smooth, exciting, usually hot finish with a ton of big moves and near falls. I like hot finishing stretches with false finishes. Those are good things. His strikes? Nothing special. I don't cringe when I see them for good or bad. They just don't stand out. If they were open hand strikes that missed by 6 inches and were repeatedly thrown, it just doesn't bother me. I love a great puncher and appreciate it when there's something excellent on that level going on. If its not that, its part of the match and not something that will likely add to or take away from my ability to enjoy the match.

Even Coppola had to leave some scenes on the cutting room floor.

Which match was that? 04/21/93 Taue & Fuchi & Ogawa vs Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi. Aired 05/09/93 in JIP form. Full version is on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EiixzcHsQw Gotta watch is eyes and expression closely in the post match as he's quick with it and doesn't make a production number over it. Taue is does try to get across in the post match their coming partnership, and is less subtle. Thanks. I'll definitely make a note to check that out when I get to that part of the '93 yearbook. Which if I'm lucky will be before the end of the year

Which match was that?

Interesting, I thought part of the issue with the new FS/FX channels were their placement. I've got TWC here in NY as well, where USA has been at 16/716 (HD) for quite some time. FS1 is 123, FXX is 124. That's sandwiched in between Jewish Life TV, Golf Channel and NBC Sports on the front end, and Fox Deportes, Lifetime Women and MTV2 on the back end. FS1 HD is 774, whereas for most channels higher in the listings (like USA), the HD version is just the SD channel preceded by 7 (i.e ESPN -- 28/728, FX - 10/710, USA, etc.).

I don't think Vince gives a shit about "FS1" bidding. He cares about "Fox" bidding. He really doesn't care too much about which Fox channel he airs on. John No concerns about the placement of FS1 on the dial vs. USA? Assuming its an issue, how much extra do they need to pull in in rights to compensate for a channel that's not as easily found as USA and the consequences for ratings / PPV that it may cause? Obviously we're at the stage where TV money is probably more important than PPV, but I'd think this issue is at least batted around in discussion.

Cool. I think you're wrong and massively overstating any case you've made in this thread, which consisted of two actual points and lots of potshots. Best of luck if you think otherwise.

I guess you win, Dylan. Screaming loudly, hanging your hat on your daughter's striking skills and going out of your way to snap at people is clearly the mature way to discuss any topic. You are correct. You should ignore me and anyone else you disagree with right away.

Agreed, his work on the arm was a lot more effective there than his leg work often is -- though you've got the Suzuki match (obviously aided by a world class performance from Suzuki) and I believe the G1 draw where he also worked over Okada's leg, where I thought Okada sold the absolute hell out of it. Hopefully I'm not mixing it up with another Okada match from the G1.

Perhaps that's my issue as well. I don't mind stiffness when built into the match and can even appreciate it as a different version of a spotfest, but its just not at all an important criteria to me, especially when it comes to punching or head shots.

How is this: Not subject to the exact same flaw as your chief contention with my argument? Tanahashi's strikes are junk to you. Because in your eyes your 10 year old daughter is better and a segment of the NJ roster is intent on nearly stiffing each other as opposed to working punches. Whether that's because you don't buy that his opponent is hurt, or because you have a more critical eye and can see him actually missing his strikes as opposed to delivering those on the level of a Lawler or HOF-type striker, I do not know. I also don't care. But again, let's not troll. It belongs firstly in the sense that you haven't in any way qualified your attempt to put out such rankings with the fact that in perhaps many cases, you're basing your entire evaluation on perhaps less than 30 or 60 minutes worth of work for some people. Whether you've watched more than someone else who isn't touting their rankings of wrestlers and matches is irrelevant. You're doing that. Secondly, its relevant because you've compared Tanahashi to all of the greats on the South Carolina and surrounding indy scene who do what he does better than him. I could watch the CFl. I could go to Rucker Park, tune into some NBDL games or watch QMJHL or MLS for my sports fix. I don't. I prefer to watch the elites in these fields do what they do. Are their exceptions? Yes. Are there reasons why certain talent in wrestling doesn't make it to the major league level at a greater proportion to actual sports Yes. But you're swimming against the current if your argument is that the minor leagues in wrestling present a superior product. Which was a point you brought up with respect to Tanahashi. Again, I loved the Suzuki match. I also thought this was unquestionably moreso due to Suzuki's performance than Tanahashi's. There were 2 wrestlers in the match. Aren't the odds likely that one will contribute more to the match than the other? You also said the match was a classic, but beyond acknowledging that Suzuki had more to do with it, said that: I'm still waiting for the explanation of how Tanahashi was the broomstick carried to this classic.

Plant my flag firmly in the not a fan camp as far as last night's show. Opening was fine, Orton/Cody was really good and I always enjoy AJ's antics. I'm generally not a Show fan, but this was stomach turning material. Its funny how the outlook is so different though when you're looking towards a long term story like we've presumably got here with Bryan. This type of show mid-year last year or earlier this year would feel like a calamity. Now its just an off-night and part of the big picture.