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Ranking someone you don't like high just for being champ at a time when a lot of footage started appearing isn't objectivity. That's just rewarding a guy for being in the right place at the right time. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to separate yourself from your subjective stylistic preferences when trying to make an objective assessment of someone's overall skill as a worker. That's why I think the best way to look at someone is to compare them to peers or people who worked similarly, like is being done in this thread. On that note, it seems entirely reasonable to want to discuss Flair again when, since the GWE, we've seen his daughter come into her own as a champ, more touring Bockwinkel matches surface, and more people become open to watching Golden Age footage. None of those points of discussion seem like tired retreads to me. I see the far more tired point of pimped puro being all about head drops and 2.9 counts wheeled out almost every day on here without people getting accused of trolling for it.

I would love to know all these average JCP matches that smoke the average lucha match. I've seen several years worth of TV from that era and it's all squash matches except for the occasional big match.

Can you post a link to your website? Sounds like it would be pretty interesting to read.

I've said it before, but, if you want to watch how an NWA champ should work, watch Lou Thesz. He does a lot of similar spots as Flair, but he's far better in his delivery and in making them feel meaningful. The matches that we have all have their own unique variances, showing him as someone who knew how to change up his matches to play to his opponent's strengths without having to do shit like Flair's starting every match with a long face shine sequence. I don't have the inclination to watch a bunch of Flair matches just to review it for this thread, but if you still have any of those thoughts you've written while watching specific matches, posting them might quell the accusations of trolling or retreading old talking points.

Agreed. The site is hilarious to browse, but taking it seriously and using troll posts on it as indicative of the rest of the online community is pretty far out there. This thread has gone way off the rails.

CMLL doesn't hold up when you just watch a random match out of context, but I still think there is lucha that holds up fine to random sampling. The main reason why I gravitate so strongly to the indy stuff is that it's exactly the sort of wrestling you can pop in cold and be in awe of the cool shit no one else is doing. When I first saw Negro Navarro and Black Terry I wasn't worried about missing any of the nuances of their characters because I was too busy enjoying the badassery on display by these grandpas tearing shit up on the mat and laying into each other. Serious question: Is there anyone who's seen a Black Terry match without falling in love with the guy?

If this thread is any indication, claiming people dismiss or ignore lucha is an entirely faulty way of looking at things. Plenty of people who've come out as anti-lucha have pointed that there are matches in the style they're high on while also explaining the things that make them not actively seek things out. If you want people to watch a great lucha match, putting more effort into pimping seems a far more productive effort than ignoring puro in a bizarre act of retaliation. FWIW, I'm one of the people who watches the pimped matches, but that may change if/when powerbomb.tv launches as I've always had a soft spot for the BTjr. handhelds. Another thing working against lucha is that the two mainstream promotions are both kind of shitty weekly TV productions in their own way. CMLL has every match following its awful formula and AAA is hellbent on imitating ECW. Indy footage where you get to see guys work without these constraints is a lot more irregular than the equivalent in either the US or Japan.

How many people who like Memphis and lucha pimp Dragon Gate and Davey Richards matches?

When's the last time you were in an actual real life fight or a combat competition. Almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring. Not something to emulate for entertainment purposes. I disagree, and judging by the fact UFC is worth more than the WWE and their public perceptions most people seem to as well. That's got zero to do with the quality of the fights. They've done a better job creating stars in recent years than WWE, although even if WWE did a great job of it they'd never see the same TV money. As long as people continue to pay and enjoy shows they pay insanely high ticket prices and PPV money for your statement that "almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring" simply isn't relevant. So go hang at Sherdog. Most real fights are boring. Not all, but most. UFC has drawn in recent times because of Connor and Rousey. Their fights were interesting because of their personalities and the fact that the company did a great job selling them as characters. But if their fights were preshow matches rather than main events no one would talk about them. Fight quality is not what people have been buying, nor what the company has been selling. If entertainment didn't matter, you wouldn't see the UFC creating rules that privelage guys who focus on stand-up over wrestlers who try to grind out decisions, or for the company to hand out bonuses for knockouts and great fights. There's no disputing the role characters play in the company's popularity, but it's hard to downplay the company's efforts to make the product entertaining. If it was all characters, you'd see something like Floyd Mayweather situation in boxing, where 1 guy sells a ton of PPVs but no one sticks around to watch anybody else.

The deep flaws underlying your argument were pointed out even when you posted it the first time, so I don't see why you would take such offense at getting called out for them when you repost it. Treating puro as the lone product of American imperialism is racist in itself. You paint a narrative of the Japanese as powerless victims, failing to account for their own agency in accepting pro wrestling and the historical booking style of the native wrestlers triumphing over monster foreigners as a way of rebuilding national pride after WW2. You also fail to account for how those nationalist undertones led to the development of puro as its own tradition with its own innovations that might seem alien to traditional American wrestling fans; namely, fighting spirit spots, finisher kick outs, and the aforementioned extended strike exchanges. Ironically, all three of those things seem pretty well maligned by the lucha crowd you paint as so accepting of cultural differences Mexico is also far from an island. There has been quite a bit of influence from lucha on wrestling in the US and Japan going back to the 70's both in terms of incorporating things from the style and exchanging talent. If lucha was such an alien style, you wouldn't see NJPW sending guys to CMLL to refine their craft or AAA freely incorporating workers from US promotions.

The anti-lucha and pro-lucha people seem to talking past each other. Chalking the difference in views up to some invisible racism against Mexican culture or American colonialism might allow you to enjoy a moral high horse, but it's not going to sway anyone to your side. Plenty of people here have expressed enjoyment of the big pimped matches while pointing out specific things that stop them from following the overall product. It's like if I was trying to sell the board on workrate US indy wrestling and, instead of addressing any of the common complaints or breaking down why the matches are great, I rushed into blaming people's inability to get it on some hegemony of mainstream promotions. Could something like that be true? Possibly, but no one is going to take such an argument seriously if they weren't already a fan of the style. I also notice that despite lucha fans repeatedly talking up how diverse it is, there is a strong focus on a single company with a highly restrictive style (CMLL). Meanwhile, the other major promotion in AAA seems to largely fall by the wayside despite being much more accessible to fans of US wrestling.

Anyone planning on voting Trump/Clinton as feud of the year for the Observer awards? Seems like it should be the winner by a long shot. Nuclear heat, classic promos, and epic swerves. It had it all.

I'm not sure how true it is to say lucha gets ignored considering the big AAA and CMLL matches have gotten plenty of publicity on English speaking websites in recent years. People definitely seem to at least be open to checking it out. What doesn't get much pimping are the throwaway CMLL 6-mans, and it's entirely fair to chalk that up to style preferences for the reasons stated in this thread

2009 also had ECW as a consistently good show throughout the year with Christian killing it. 2010-2012 was worse.

Fuck Goldberg/Lesnar. Plenty of new guys I'd rather see Lesnar work (Joe, Styles, Balor) than a retread, especially if the rumors of Lesnar wanting to go back to UFC end up true.

Someone networks into a political position. How scandalous! How many people even knew the SBA existed until Linda started getting her name floated for it? She seems like a pretty good pick between her experience watching WWE grow into what it is today and her prior experience navigating the political minefield in her senate runs. She's also pretty active supporting women in leadership positions. Aside from the lolwrestling thing this pick does not deserve the ridicule it's gotten.

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2016/1202/619909/jimmy-superfly-snuka-trial-update/ I laughed at the bit about Snuka thinking he has to be at a WWE match, but pretty sad for his family if true.

Why? The last match was designed to set up a rematch. Because Goldberg's beaten Brock twice already, he shouldn't be working anything resembling Brock's typical matches at his age, and it would be far more interesting to see either guy against a new opponent.

What did he do to get banned? I enjoyed reading his dissident opinions.

I was under the impression that King's Road and four pillars were translations of marketing terms used by Baba in oudou and shitennou.

Akiyama losing to Kobashi at the dome is commonly cited as killing any chance he had at becoming a top level draw and a terrible decision for the long term health of the promotion.

I don't know if you've read the book by Heath McCoy about Stampede Wrestling, called "Pain & Passion?" (If not, you should. It's really good.) McCoy works as a reporter for the Calgary Sun. He covers Pro Wrestling. In the book, McCoy writes that when Stampede was active, he would report on particular angles or matches if Bruce Hart asked him to. If I remember correctly, McCoy used to actually contact Hart and initiate these deals. One would assume the flip side was that Hart would grant him access at Stampede shows and give interviews when asked. I don't see a problem with any of that. It's symbiotic between the reporter and promoter. I am sure there is a line that needs to be drawn in there somewhere, and that the line might be hard to find sometimes, but I don't have a big issue with it. What I would have an issue with, would be people denying that Heath McCoy is actually a journalist at all, just because he had a relationship with a promoter. I would also question the intelligence of those who were unable to tell the difference between when McCoy was reporting on a story, or helping out a promotion by publicizing an angle by reporting on it. Finally, I would have an issue with anybody who was unable to discern the difference between a journalist who reports on something, and a promoter who usually has a different agenda. That's called a conflict of interest and it's a pretty big thing journalists are supposed to avoid. Dave being involved in something like that doesn't discount the stuff he's written about other promotions, but it does draw into question your attempt to make a hard line between "insider" carnies and Dave if he's essentially worked as a paid publicist for promotions in the past. The guy has as much of an agenda to push as anyone else making money off the industry, and the image of himself as a total outsider is part of that.

I'm also not sure why people would be so up in arms at the idea that Dave isn't an impartial saint. I'm sure longtime subscribers can recount numerous times he's been wrong or twisted the facts to fit his narrative. A post in here that disputes such a thing also happens to list probably the most famous example of that in his ongoing treatment of the entire sport of MMA as simply an extension of pro wrestling. The guy has a narrative he wants to sell, just like Pritchard, and Russo, and any other writer ever.

I don't have an issue calling Dave a journalist just like I don't have an issue calling the editors of WrestleZone and WrestlingInc journalists as well. A journalist simply means a guy who reports news. Whether or not he's a good journalist is an entirely different matter, and I'd also argue his style puts him more in line with Perez Hilton and TMZ than it does ESPN. The idea in wrestling circles that he's some amazing journalist bearing the weight of the community on his shoulders strikes me as a big fish in small pond situation, considering that he's not seen as anything special in the world of MMA despite spending half or more of his day covering it.

But it's a snapshot!