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I have no idea what you guys are on about. This was good. As a quasi-squash it was a fine piece of violence with no downtime and loads of brutal looking spots. Brock was every bit as cocky, stiff, and sloppy as I'd like him to be. The outside stuff was was especially nuts, particularly the announce table work and one suplex where it looked like Roman nearly landed square on his neck. Roman ate the beating like a champ and it was a nice touch for him to get busted open just in time for his final comeback. 6 F5s being too much is a valid criticism, but it's a Wrestlemania main event between the only two guys who beat the Undertaker, so I'm more forgiving of that than I would be any other time. I also watched this out of context with no real investment in either guy's booking, but I think the effectiveness of the booking is a separate matter from the match's aesthetic merits and also something I think is too early to discuss without at least a few months to see how things pan out.

This was good, though it didn't quite live up to my expectations. I wasn't too into it at the start, but it settled into a really nice groove in the latter half with Asuka stiffing an increasingly desperate Charlotte and looking for all kinds of ways to contort her arm. The key spots in the triangle moonsault counter, the apron suplex, and the spanish fly were all exciting, though the triangle did look a little sloppy. The finish came out of nowhere, though. Charlotte casually getting her figure 8 out of nowhere and Asuka doing nothing to fight it despite it being done with one arm is weak. I can't but feel this would be a lot more memorable if they had 5 more minutes to work with. Asuka's post-match promo and celebration was some strong stuff and gave it the feel of a passing of the torch moment. ***3/4 I will also mention that you really need to watch Asuka's pre-WWE stuff if you think her strikes here were anything special.

The problem with the NJ style is no one really good at going long and there is far too much emphasis placed on cramming things in the stretch run at the expense of the rest of the match. The result is uneven matches that often seem more interesting when reading about them than when actually watching them. I thought Tanahashi was overrated during his prime, but now I find myself missing him as he at least understood how to use his leg work as a hook to build a match around, whereas with Okada you just get blatant time killing until the call to go home.

If people are willing to believe they would inflate the number to seem more important, why wouldn't they believe that they would deflate the number to potentially save money on taxes? They weren't a public company at the time, so I could see internal financials being a little murky. Does WWE really have a reputation of doing something like that at any point in their history? When 32's attendance came out as 80k, no one seemed to think they might be fudging the taxes even though the official pictures don't make it look like anything near 1/5 of the arena is empty. If the main crux of the argument is that the arena "looks" at or near capacity in official photos and camerework, then that is some pretty poor evidence considering it's pretty much the job of the guys taking those pics to make the attendance seem as impressive as possible. There's no way they'd make it easy to see the empty seats scattered around the top level.

If the company's internal financial reports say there were 78k fans seated in the building and the number was corroborated by multiple internal sources, it seems pretty open and shut that that's the real attendance number. No other number receives this much leeway or this much stock placed in eyeball tests of official photos.

The Moolah controversy always struck me as virtue signalling. Even if we are to assume all the bad things claimed about her are true and she did nothing good for anyone, it is far too late to get outraged about it when she's already been dead for a decade and her heinous acts happened 30-60 years ago. About the only tangible effect is making the Redditors who complained to Snickers about it feel good about themselves.

I don't agree. When I was watching the 1997 eps I remember thinking the whole angle with Hennig taking Arn's spot in the horsemen just to turn around and shit all over them was a hella ballsy move to get heel heat on the nWo and Hennig. Always figured Ric Flair and older fans took shit way too seriously when they spoke out about the angle as if it was the end of the world. It's pro wrestling and having older stars put over younger guys in shocking angles is booking 101. The Flair/Hennig feud and their matches have also been really underrated.

After RINGS turned into shoots, Han racked up several wins over legit wrestlers and also had an exciting decision loss to Noguiera despite pushing 40 and coming into the bout sick. This is all info that's easy to find with a simple Google search. Han definitely had ability to do shoots and probably could have done pretty well if he joined the UFC or Pancrase.

I love me some Eddie. Would love to know what AAA matches are worth watching besides the Love Machine stuff. Some obvious ones: Batista: After starting the 2005 Triple H feud JBL: After getting repackaged for the Eddie feud Christian: After debuting in ECW Tenryu: After starting the Choshu feud AJ Styles: After leaving TNA Jericho: After the 2008 heel turn Sasaki: The 2000 Kawada match Taue: 1995 Champion's Carnival Undertaker: After starting the Mankind feud

"Where are the classics" is pretty much my view on the Danielson all-timer argument as well. He was the centerpiece of ROH, a promotion with the sole goal to bring together all the best talent available and let them have the best matches possible, so I have a hard time buying into the idea that he got worse opportunities than the AJPW crew. I also think there's a tendency to rate him more on the performer he could have been rather than the performer he actually was considering he got taken down at a point when most guys were entering their prime.

I went with 8/5/82 pretty much for what was said about it being the best showcase of both guys' skills and their dynamic. I do think recent-ish criticism has focused way too much on the spots without giving proper credit to the story underlying the spots. Sure, you can point to Fujinami and Hamada matches that had similar spots to what Tiger Mask did, but that misses the explosiveness and sense of unpredictability with which he executed those spots. I think it was that aura of Tiger Mask of someone who was a freakish athlete almost resembling an animal more than a man that really makes the matches stand out more than just the stunts they did. Dynamite Kid was a great opponent for Tiger Mask for how he was a great athlete who, though clearly a step behind Tiger, had the viciousness and willpower to make up for his shortcomings. Last I watched them, I remember the matches didn't even feature a whole lot of big spots and it was mostly filled hard-fought matwork and rough brawling.

All-Star Survivor Series Elimination match: Hulk Hogan (1985), Andre the Giant (1981), Bruno Sammartino (1970), Roddy Piper (1985), Randy Savage (1987) vs. John Cena (2007), Undertaker (2007), Batista (2007), Rey Mysterio (1995), The Rock (2002) WWE vs. WCW Championship Stone Cold (1998) vs. Goldberg (1998) Hell in a Cell Bret Hart (1997) and Owen Hart (1997) vs. Vince McMahon (2003) and Shane McMahon (2003) Knockout or Submission only Intergender Elimination match Brock Lesnar (2012), Ken Shamrock (1991), Bob Backlund (1994), and Sasha Banks (2015) vs. Daniel Bryan (2009), Cesaro (2009), William Regal (2005), and Asuka (2012) Special Singles match: Eddie Guerrero (2004) vs. Shawn Michaels (2004) Hardcore match: Mick Foley (1995) vs. Dean Ambrose (2010) Tag Titles: AJ Styles (2016) and Shinsuke Nakamura (2016) vs. Chris Benoit (2002) and Kurt Angle (2002) Women's Title match: Charlotte Flair (2015) vs. Chyna (1999) Intercontinental Title: CM Punk (2011) vs. Ricky Steamboat (1987) Money in the Bank Ladder match Shelton Benjamin (2008) vs. Jeff Hardy (2008) vs. Mark Henry (2011) vs. Terry Funk (1997) vs. Edge (2001) vs. Christian (2009)

If you watch the replay in slow motion it looks like Sami was aiming for the middle of the chair at first but Eddie moving the chair led to him hitting the top part before the bat quickly bounced off and hit Eddie in the head. A poorly thought out and unnecessarily dangerous spot, but I don't think Sami deserves the heat for it.

Haven't been active in a few weeks and haven't gotten any matches from people I've been matched with, but count me out of this for me.

Love this list. Lots of unconventional picks I haven't seen and other stuff I've watched that doesn't get enough love. Always good to see someone into the Kana/Yamamoto vs. Ikeda/Shuri tag. Had no idea Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Ace happened on 2/20/1998. I've only seen their RWTL 1997 match. Is it available on video?

That Miz promo is fantastic. Really made him feel like a big deal at a time when fans weren't too receptive to him being a main eventer. Hogan/Slaughter Wrestlemania VII

Didn't vote, but Bob Orton is underrated as fuck. Really doesn't belong getting ranked below a lot of the guys who placed better than him.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm uptight about what I count as shoot-style. I don't have an issue considering UWFi or BattleArts as shoot-style, for example. As I said, I think Danielson/Ki is a great match and I was just trying to explain why I see it as a different beast than Thatcher/Graves. To me, shoot-style is neither about just doing shoot-style submissions over pro-style submissions or fooling people into thinking it's real, but about having guys who know enough to hold their own in a real fight building a no-frills match around that knowledge. At least originally, I think it was conceived as a minimalist throwback to the style seen in the clips we have from matches in the 1920's and early 1930's where matches were built around guys struggling for shoot holds and not much else. Using real techniques to create real emotion. I'd be game for any match that roughly fits that description regardless of if I come out viewing it as "real" shoot-style. I made this thread for match recs, not to argue about what is and isn't shoot-style. Now this is the kind of match I wanted to see when I made this thread. It's not a RINGS match, but it doesn't try to be and I really appreciated the creativity that went into it. I loved the the story with both guys coming in inexperienced and initially relying on their respective backgrounds in judo and BJJ until the guy with more pro style experience is able to seize the advantage. The matwork isn't as slick as what you'd see from Japanese feds, but that adds to the match's charm. A southern indy fed built around shoot-style is the dream I never knew I had. The holds looked really stiff as well, especially that finish. Would love to see some more recs.

Phil Schneider had it on his MOTY list and made an MDA topic about it. I could also rewatch and do a more detailed write-up if you trust me. More importantly, though, I'm surprised to hear you're so down on Thatcher. I would have thought he ticks all the right boxes for a shoot-style fan to dig, at least based on that one match I linked. What matches have you watched from him that gave you such a negative opinion? I've watched the Danielson/Ki match with Shamrock as the ref, and thought it was great, but not shoot-style. I watched it right after Tamura/Kohsaka and the difference in the technique displayed in the matwork was obvious. I enjoyed it but as a pro style match where they found a nifty way to use shoot holds than as a shoot-style, if that makes sense. The difference with the Thatcher match I linked is him and that Graves have pretty clearly had extensive training in some form of submission wrestling and they use that knowledge to have a match that's basically a more dramatized and tricked out version of how a shoot sparring match between them might look. It's really that kind of match I'm seeking when I talk about shoot-style.

Excellent news. They already had the Japan-only Nico channel at 5$ a month, so I'm holding out hope that they have something special planned if they're launching a dedicated streaming service at an increased price. I think this deserves its own topic.

I've heard the shoot-style scene has been experiencing a revival over the past few years on the US and Euro indy circuit. Could someone fill me on what's been going on and what the must-see matches are? I just watched this match and was blown away. Only found it because the channel also had Ikeda/Honda lol http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3gwba9

Felt like rewatching this after enjoying their performances in the 1/26/2003 Misawa/Kobashi tag. Like others, I really liked the early parts of this match and it felt like it had the potential to be a classic. The dueling bodypart work was really well done and led to some very nice cut-offs from both guys. They also were great at establishing differences in styles with Marufuji as the flashy high flyer and KENTA as the bully striker. There was a very nice sense of escalating violence building up to that incredible spot where Marufuji nearly decapitates himself on the guard rail off a moonsault and busts open KENTA in the process. The work after that big spot seems divisive. I was disappointed that they dropped the bodypart work in favor throwing bombs, but this is a case where I just have to appreciate them for what they did rather than hate them for what they didn't do. The counters and struggles are really, really well done and both guys display some amazing athleticism in doing them. The match respects the standards of grit and brutality set by their predecessors while also feeling like a match only KENTA and Marufuji could have. Someone complained that not all the struggle moments led to big spots, but I thought it was a pretty great idea. Hell, the stuff on the ramp with them attempting a german suplex only to land on their feet might have been my favorite moment of the match. At once, it functioned great as a callback to the famous spot from Misawa/Kobashi 3/1/2003 while doing through some impressive athletic maneuvers that their predecessors couldn't do. The struggle on the apron leading to the falcon arrow to the outside and Marufuji's sell of it was quite good as well. I'd also say that this is easily the most impressive I've seen Marufuji look in a match. In the coming years, he would become one of my least favorite wrestlers as he seemingly used this match as a cue to start incorporating all kinds of goofy shit in his offense to show off until an ACL injury forced him to slow down. On this night, though, he legitimately does look like the best guy in the promotion. Putting aside any issues I have with he layout, he was fantastic here with how he sold, took multiple insane bumps, and cleanly hit a multitude of spectacular high spots. Now for the bad. I agree that the finish run was overkill, and that they easily could have spread the big spots used over a series of matches over the coming months. Still, I'm reluctant to hold it against them simply because they weren't going to be wrestling over the coming months. I have a feeling they knew before the bell even rung that their series was never going to be the focal point of the promotion at this point and this was their big opportunity to shine together, hence their kitchen sink approach. That said, I agree that it would be a better match if the work was built around just a couple of spots and they gave things time to breathe instead of trying to cram everything into one match. I mentioned that these guys respected the standard of brutality set by their predecessors, but I think it was to a fault. The german suplex/backdrop exchange, aside from looking awful, felt out of place and felt like they just worked it in because they lacked confidence in their ability to hold the crowd without trading head drops. Marufuji eating a tiger suplex off the top rope was also uncomfortable after watching the guard rail spot from earlier and again felt more like a bump their took because they thought they needed to do it rather than something that had a place in the match. These guys absolutely had the potential for an epic in them. They just had to tighten things up and work smarter. ****

Thanks to Richeyedwards for the rec. Feels kind of odd that I haven't seen this match before. KENTA and Marufuji start this off and look great working an exchange that looks like it's out of a kung fu movie. Kobashi and Misawa and it's kind of marred by a botched half nelson suplex that Misawa does a rather poor job of covering for into some arm lock. They get up and repeat the spot just so Misawa can do a ridiculous no sell (seriously, he just pops straight up and nails a tiger driver like it's nothing). More Marufuji vs. KENTA stuff and it still looks great. Though there's not much psychology at play, both guys look really impressive hitting their spots and come across as the future of the company. There's a brief KENTA heat segment, which is really good, and then we get a longer Marufuji heat segment that I'd agree is probably the best part of the match. He does a great job ragdolling for both guys' brutal looking offense, though I wish we had a better crowd. Hot tag to Misawa and he seems inspired to do better this time, moving around about as fast as you'd expect out of a guy with his mileage. We get a pretty nice Misawa/KENTA exchange where hegives KENTA a good chance to shine until he manages to hit his elbows and take back over. I love how everyone respects Misawa's elbows as a great equalizer no matter how old he looks at points. KENTA and Marufuji trade bombs as the match goes into its finishing run. Final pairing is Kobashi/Marufuji, which is also really good with Kobashi selling a bit before inevitably taking over. Misawa tries to save his partner but gets laid out with a lariat, and Kobashi hits another lariat on Marufuji for the win. ***3/4 Really fun buildup tag. The match feels a lot shorter than it actually is, the juniors look like future stars, and every pairing with the odd exception of Kobashi/Misawa delivers. The match doesn't quite hit that next gear to get into great match territory, but I think these guys were going for more a showcase type deal and they delivered great on that front.

Hey Richeyedwards, here's a great spotfest I just saw yesterday Alfa, Faby Apache, Mini Abismo Negro, and Cassandro vs. El Oriental, Cinthia Moreno, Octagóncito, and Pimpinela Escarlata It's the first match of this video