GOTNW

Trying to turn this into an All Japan heavies vs New Japan heavies debate is redundant. It's hard to put into words just how much better Hashimoto was than Mutoh and Chono.

Aaron's list is fine but there's a lot more to Hashimoto than just that. Hashimoto/Nagata vs. Misawa/Akiyama is probably the 2001 MOTY and it isn't even listed.

They are my #1 and #2. When I asked myself what would characterize the greatest wrestler of all time the first thing that came to mind was the ability to instantly project their greatness no matter what position they were in and when they were in it. Both Misawa and Hashimoto fit that definition to a tee. Naturally I asked myself more questions and eventually reached a conclusion but before we got to that I'll digress and ramble for a while. What finally ended my inner Misawa vs. Kawada debate was how much more I liked the idea of Misawa being interjected in a match than I did Kawada. Put Misawa in a 6 man tag in, I don't know, 2006, and I'll watch it without giving it more thought. It becomes a match that is instantly attractive to my mind. Do the same with Kawada and I won't really care much. Because, quite honestly, by that point neither did he. Misawa may be the single most influential wrestler in history. The change in the All Japan style was organic and gradual but Misawa gave it its final form. It's pretty fascinating to compare All Japan and New Japan matches from the same year because New Japan matches sometims feel even obsolete in comparison (which is also partly because of them pushing Mutoh and Chono). Obviusly it changed the landscape of japanese wrestling, but it was also heavily influential on american indy wrestling, and it eventually reached both WWE (seriously, the 2015 WWE style is like a shitty parody of All Japan) and, well, even lucha. I'm not going to pretend I know much about lucha, but noticing the use of "indyriffic" moves in recent times was fairly easy as was noticing the complaints of long time lucha followers about that "issue". Misawa's style was maximalistic and highly ambitious. He made it work. He was special. The other day I watched him take an Exploder from Akiyama and he bumped so well for it I replayed it three times. He made it work. He knew when to put on a hold and let the match breath without it feeling obligatory. He presented himself in such a manner that just hanging with him made the other guy look better (and it can't be stressed enough how hard it is to pull that off). He elbowed Kobashi's "cancer kidney" in his return match. He successfully worked around limitations and constructed great matches even in his final years. The only even remotely negative thing I can say about him is that sometimes his work became too ambitious and suffered because of this. Of course, because of Misawa's greatness this happened very, very rarely but it still did. It took me a while to "click" with Hashimoto's work. I liked him from the first time I saw him, but it was only after viewing several of his matches that I really "got" him. He was my wrestling equivalent of The Velvet Underground. There were many instances where he could've gotten a louder pop if he had decided to finish a match differently, but instead he opted for the smarter choice that would be more rewarding in his later work. He had a special ability of building to a moment and almost toying with the fans' patience (mind you, not something that japanese fans lack) before commencing outbursts of violence that transcended the boundaries my mind had set on how good wrestling could be. He didn't work as epic (epic in its original definition, not "13 year old describing his favourite video game epic") as Misawa but he managed to achieve the same level of drama in much shorter time spans. He was great as early as 1989 and as late as 2004. He doesn't lack the quantity of great work and I like his best stuff more than anyone else's. Watching his matches always excites me and fills me with joy and to me that matters a lot more than how many Jumbo Tsuruta or Ric Flair matches someone else has given ****. AND he got a great match out of Chono.

Mascaras was a good worker in All Japan.

No one from Suzuki-gun is in the G1. It wasn't that hard to figure out.

1990-Hashimoto 1991-Hashimoto 1992-Hashimoto 1993-Hashimoto 1994-Hashimoto 1995-Hashimoto 1996-Hashimoto 1997-Hashimoto 1998-Hashimoto 1999-Hashimoto

Misawa/Morishima in 2006 and Misawa/Kojima in 2004.

Shawn Michaels is pretty much the epitome of why people laugh at American wrestling. Austin is a guy who will make my dad (who thinks pro wrestling is pretty stupid) think he punched a guy for real when a random match of his is played on WWE's Eurosport show. No contest.

But it has been so far. They established that he was anti-USA and that he was undefeated. That was his character. He wasn't a monster heel because he was having 50/50 matches against Fandango and similarly placed midcarders. There was nothing more to him. If losing to John Cena was going to hurt him that much (which it did) then it would've been better if he had never ever gone over Cena in the first place.

Owens is a much more versatile performer and a lot better at actually engaging the crowd. And he'll just go around telling everyone how USA sucks? That's your idea of a main event heel in 2015?

Morishima was a good worker in his time, possibly even great around 2006-2007, but he's been way too shitty the last few years to even warrant consideration.

"Jumbo" "20 year peak" LOL

Kawada was Tenryu's stablemate and heir and inherited his finisher and attitude amongst other things.....but did he surpass him?

Gus Sonnenberg vs Count George Zarynoff - 24.4.1930. Ed Don George vs Jack Wagner - 9.1.1931. Ed Strangler Lewis vs Dick Shikat - 9.6.1932. Whitney Hewitt vs Paul Harper - 16.4.1934. Jim Londos vs Bronko Nagurski - 18.11.1938. Lou Thesz vs Verne Gagne - FKE 25.1.1952. Lou Thesz vs Hans Schmidt - FKE 16.1.1953. Lou Thesz vs Hans Schmidt - FKE xx.7.1955. Gilbert Cesca vs Billy Catanzaro - France 2.5.1957 Pat O'Connor vs Buddy Rogers - FKE 30.6.1961. Antonio Inoki vs Chris Markoff - JWA 16.5.1969. Antonio Inoki vs Dory Funk Jr. - JWA 2.12.1969. Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs Gene Kiniski & Johnny Valentine - JWA 1.12.1970. Antonio Inoki vs Jack Brisco - JWA 5.8.1971. Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr. - CWF 8.2.1972. Antonio Inoki vs Kintaro Oki - NJPW 10.10.1974. Johnny Valentine vs Paul Jones - MACW 9.3.1975. Kintaro Oki vs Seiji Sakaguchi - NJPW 16.5.1975. Steve Grey vs Clive Myers - WOS 8.10.1975. Giant Baba vs Kintaro Oki - AJPW 30.10.1975. Antonio Inoki vs Billy Robinson - NJPW 11.12.1975. Kintaro Oki & Kim Duk vs Rusher Kimura & Great Kusatsu - AJPW 14.12.1977. Tatsumi Fujinami vs Ryuma Go - NJPW 27.7.1978. Tatsumi Fujinami vs Ryuma Go - NJPW 2.10.1979. Mile Zrno vs Charly Verhulst - CWA Europe 12.7.1980. Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - CWA 21.3.1981. Atsushi Onita & Masanobu Fuchi vs Eddie Gilbert & Ricky Morton - CWA 4.9.1981. Jerry Lawler vs Dutch Mantell - CWA 22.3.1982. El Santo, El Solitario, Gory Guerrero & Huracan Ramirez vs Perro Aguayo, Negro Navarro, El Signo & Texano - UWA 12.9.1982. Terry Funk vs Stan Hansen - AJPW 14.4.1983. Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee - CWA 6.6.1983. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 - EMLL 23.9.1983. Sangre Chicana, Mocho Cota & La Fiera vs El Satanico, MS-1 & Espectro Jr. - EMLL 30.9.1983. Sangre Chicana, Mocho Cota & La Fiera vs El Satanico, MS-1 & Espectro Jr. - EMLL 7.10.1983. Antonio Inoki vs Riki Choshu - NJPW 2.8.1984. Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger - UWF 5.12.1984. Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee - CWA 21.12.1985. Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo - EMLL 28.2.1986. Tatsumi Fujinami vs Akira Maeda - NJPW 12.6.1986. Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka - NJPW 5.8.1986. Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig - AWA 15.11.1986. Antonio Inoki vs Masa Saito - NJPW 27.4.1987. El Hijo Del Santo vs Espanto Jr. - UWA 10.4.1988. Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu - AJPW 5.6.1989. Masakatsu Funaki vs Tatsuo Nakano - UWF 27.7.1989. Nobuhiko Takada vs Akira Maeda - UWF 21.6.1990. Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara - UWF 25.10.1990. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi - AJPW 20.4.1991. Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu - NJPW 10.8.1991. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi - AJPW 22.5.1992. Negro Casas vs El Dandy - CMLL 3.7.1992. Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - AJPW 5.7.1992. Shinya Hashimoto & Riki Choshu vs Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa - WAR 2.4.1993. Nobuhiko Takada vs Vader - UWFi 5.12.1993. Aja Kong vs Yumiko Hotta - AJW 24.1.1994. Shinya Hashimoto vs Genichiro Tenryu - NJPW 17.2.1994. Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase - NJPW 13.12.1994. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - AJPW 9.6.1995. Shinya Hashimoto vs Nobuhiko Takada - NJPW 29.4.1996. Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu - NJPW 2.8.1996. Negro Casas vs Bestia Salvaje - CMLL 18.10.1996. El Hijo Del Santo/Bestia Salvaje/Scorpio Jr. vs. Negro Casas/El Dandy /Hector Garza - CMLL 22.11.1996. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi - AJPW 20.1.1997. Bret Hart vs Steve Austin - WWF Wrestlemania 13 23.3.1997. Negro Casas vs El Hijo Del Santo - CMLL 19.9.1997. Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura - RINGS 26.9.1997. Shinya Hashimoto vs Tatsumi Fujinami-NJPW 5.6.1998. Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama - AJPW 24.7.1998. The Rock vs. Mankind - WWF 31.1.1999. El Hijo Del Santo & Negro Casas vs Bestia Salvaje & Scorpio Jr. - CMLL 19.3.1999. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto - RINGS 24.6.1999. Shinya Hashimoto vs Naoya Ogawa - NJPW 11.10.1999. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama - AJPW 27.2.2000. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Shinya Hashimoto & Yuji Nagata - Zero-1 2.3.2001. El Hijo Del Santo vs Perro Aguayo - X-LAW 4.3.2001. Yoshihiro Takayama vs Yoshinari Ogawa - NOAH 07.09.2002 Daisuke Ikeda vs Yuki Ishikawa - Futen 24.4.2005. Yuki Ishikawa, Munenori Sawa & Alexander Otsuka vs Daisuke Ikeda, Super Tiger II & Katsumi Usuda - Battlarts 26.7.2008. Minoru Suzuki vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - NJPW 8.10.2012. Roman Reigns vs Jey Uso - WWE Clash Of Champions 27.9.2020.

If that match didn't have the two or so botches it does no one would be calling it awful. It was fine.

Of course there is http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25836-jun-akiyama-akitoshi-saito-vs-kenta-kobashi-kentaro-shiga-noah-navigation-against-the-current-101902/?hl=%2Bakiyama+%2Bsaito http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25833-takeshi-rikio-takeshi-morishima-vs-jun-akiyama-akitoshi-saito-noah-great-voyage-092302/?hl=%2Bakiyama+%2Bsaito http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25851-jun-akiyama-akitoshi-saito-vs-kenta-kobashi-tamon-honda-noah-navigation-with-breeze-060603/?hl=%2Bakiyama+%2Bsaito

How many Taue singles matches have you actually seen Matt?

It's a lot easier to come to the conclusion Taue is the best one when your only exposure to him are matches against the other elite All Japan workers. The notion no one appreciated him is fucking ridiculous. Just watch this: http://youtu.be/Z90PuVLG6Ks?t=24m6s He was a great wrestler. But rating him as highly as Misawa and Kawada is underselling them more than anything.

Since we're doing the hard polls here's another one. I used to think Jumbo was better. I enjoyed watching Tenryu more, but I always thought of Jumbo as a smarter and a more versatile worker. Even though watching Tenryu stiff the shit out of people brought me epiphanous joy I subconsciously wrote him off as a lesser worker that had to compensate his lack of other skills by working in that manner. And it took me many great matches to realise how smart of a worker he really was. Yes, his work is/was simplistic, but it ALWAYS worked. There wasn't an environment that Tenryu couldn't adapt to. And he has continued to produce great work years after his prime. He managed to put on great performances when he could (legitimately) barely walk. He's my pick.

Natalya, Paige, Naomi, Nikki Bella, and Alicia Fox all range from decent to really good workers. Even on the main roster the talent is present; it all comes back to presentation and conditioning of the audience. None of them are really good workers. Nikki Bella hasn't done anything memorable ever except throw a solid forearm which somehow now makes her a good worker around here, Naomi is average, Paige, Natalya and Alicia Fox have shown some glimpses of quality but compared to their overall output it would be equivalent to calling Kofi Kingston a really good worker.

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

Kobashi/Ogawa is an obvious pick.

2005 is when he had the Meltzer ***** triple threat, the Abyss cage match, a high end match vs Joe and the two ironman matches vs Daniels right? That's a stacked resume for just one year.

I said it lacked direction in SELLING, which you didn't even try to argue against. It was a good match. It could've been great had the limbwork been better or if they had bothered to create more struggle around the armwork by selling more dramatically.

I know I liked the big Bullet Club vs ROH 6 man tag and some New Japan tag better. It was a very good match, no bones about it, but for a match based mostly on limbwork it lacked direction in selling to truly reach greatness.