GOTNW

What are you trying to get him into exactly? Does he display apathy towards fighting/simulated fighting in general or just the stuff you show him?

x2 The Elbow Drop was executed fine, but there was no struggle prior to make me care about the spot and the spot itself didn't look impressive. You talk about his body being mangled and distorted and how it was a "last ditch effort that would hurt him". That narrative could be applied but I didn't find Wyatt's offence to be so astonishingly brutal it would make Ambrose half-dead and Ambrose's big desperation spot just looked weak. He leaped from a pretty mild elevation. As for Ambrose's leg selling, well, it just didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He was doing Nigel's contrived rebound lariats anyway and they looked even more preposterous with him trying to fit quasi leg selling in there. He crawled and made more silly faces then he'd usually but outside of that I didn't get the sense that it affected the match much. Converting enjoyment into numbers is stupid anyway . If you enjoyed it that much then great-I didn't and I gave my reasoning for it.

I was mainly alluding to Wyatt hitting his finisher on the ambulance door and the floor which had no chance of looking good for obvious reasons. Though an Elbow Drop through a table in a WWE garbage match isn't something I'm going to care about as it's almost a norm at this point and it didn't look particularly good either.

I don't see what makes that match good let alone great. WWE gimmick matches are probably my least favourite pro wrestling genre. There is no efficient heel/face dynamic in 2015 WWE nor are they good enough workers to invest me into FIP segments but nothing except the quasi legwork indicated they cared about that. And with no long term selling I have even less reason to care about it. The big spots are all set up illogically and are often get too pretentious too actually look good, not to mention the way they worked the match is fundamentally wrong (I better get my opponent in the ring instead of, you know, TRYING TO WIN....why'd I do that?). I only see it having merit as a garbage spotfest and even then the work isn't anything memorable.

Gedo, Jado, BUSHI if he weren't injured etc. Not that they should-but after an excursion those are the kind of names you'd expect them to beat first.

Kensuke Office doesn't even exist really. Their promotion (Diamond Ring) is dead, Kensuke and Satoshi Kajiwara retired, Miyahara moved to All Japan, Kitamiya to NOAH and Nakajima works for NOAH while tehnically being a freelancer.

I love Sugiura. Most of it is because of his willingness to stiff the shit out of people. He isn't exactly the most consistent worker in the world and watching him exchange elbows with a random loser in a six man in front of fifty people can be tedious. But when he's on he's awesome. And he'll be on as long as he has someone worthwhile to work with. He has great chemistry with a variety of opponents and works well to play to their strenghts, whether they be Marufuji, KENTA, Takayama or Kotoge. Great tag team worker and counter wrestler. Gets the "legit toughness" bonus points. And his punches are fucking amazing and that is of utmost importance.

Takashi Sugiura http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21964-mitsuharu-misawa-takashi-suguira-vs-shinsuke-nakamura-hirooki-goto-njpw-wrestle-kingdom-010409/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21838-jun-akiyama-takeshi-rikio-vs-yoshihiro-takayama-takashi-suguira-noah-spring-navigation-042807/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21973-takashi-sugiura-go-shiozaki-vs-shinsuke-nakamura-milano-collection-at-noah-second-navigation-030109/

No chance. I don't think I've ever given a match of his four stars actually. I like Taguchi better.

The Sumo Hall crowd during Vader's New Japan debut caused them to be banned from the building.

For what it's worth the Sheamus match was great. It had a logical opening that was more reminiscing of Hashimoto vs Choshu (although obviusly they didn't reach that extent of quality) than generic wwe hoss 1 vs 2 , an amazing sense of struggle, fantastic offence and both guys changing up their stuff which made the match seem even more important. Sheamus had to earn the 10 clobbering blows with desperate headbutts and instead of just getting his stuff in via his usual formula he modified it by using not one but two kneelifts, then going back to the clobbering blows and using them in a position he usually doesn't and THEN getting the springboard shoulder block in. Those kinds of twist on the formula made this feel big. Also loved Sheamus' counter of the Camel Clutch-the simplicity in it was beautiful. The finish was what you'd expect out of a big Rusev match (opportunistic Axe Kicks as a dramatic transition before the finish) but I always enjoy it and so did I here. I'd say this was a better performance for Sheamus than Rusev but it was by no means a carry job.

This may be just a matter of me misconcepting how high Rusev is rated but I've seen high praise for the Swagger/Henry/Big Show matches when I don't think any of them were any better than "above average" and not even all of them reached that level. I think he is a good seller and shows good timing at using, say, Axe Kicks as dramatic transitions but whenever his matches go for a little longer they turn into nothing-fests. I liked the Big E matches but I don't think they were as good as the Big E-Titus matches from Superstars. Haven't seen the Sheamus title match. Maybe "engage" would've made for better wording. I'm fairly satisfied with my english but not being a native speaker I've grown accustomed to the occasional mistakes so sorry about that. I try to watch pro wrestling with as much focus to get the most enjoyment out of it and Rusev's matches often have me space out for long periods of time so I can't call those matches good. I think he shows great potential at some things but that has yet to translate into great work. It could-and I hope it does-but I don't see it right now.

As someone who originally brought this up I 100% agree. The only "real" heels right now are Miz, Rusev and the Cena/HHH/Batista types. Most of the heels aren't relevant. No one's going to boo Stardust, they don't give a shit. Rusev is a rare example of WWE injecting a current social issue into an angle which they're generally awful at and ***, The Miz is fine as a midcarder but his type doesn't work beyond it. That leaves us with the HHH/Batista/Cena group. With Batista gone, HHH fading away and Cena being there forever I believe they should overpush Reigns to create another real post-modern heel. He might get over as a face, but honestly the crowd turning on him could be better for the company in the long run as it gives them an organic foil for say, Ambrose. Also why not just let guys act like assholes without associating them with Stephanie McMahon? Why is she on TV every week for twenty minutes? Who does that get over? Gimmicks worthy of being morally condemned can still work. Bray Wyatt and Miz are/were over in different ways but they have useful heat. Whereas you have some guys that are heels just for the sake of being heels and it results in apathy which is the worst reaction a pro-wrestler can get. ***-Rusev doesn't work the highspot style that wins over the WWE crowds. I would also argue that he is very overrated as a worker and that his strenghts (selling an injury) are dwelled upon too much and he still has yet to have a PPV match that would significally indulge me. But that's something for another thread.

Honestly I believe creating post-modern characters has played as much of a role in New Japan's recent rise as their match quality has. They've established clear premises, character backgrounds, relationships and haven't lost continuity. No way does Meltzer give Shibata/Tanahashi the full five in a vacuum. They are very good at exploiting the advantages of presenting wrestling in a more sportive setting. Different styles and morals are simple, effective reasons for feuds. I never feel like WWE's melodrama gives them an advantage, product-quality wise at least. 90% of "sports-entertaining" is completely redundant. There are plenty of reasons for folks to fight that don't insult one's intelligence. Heat for the sake of heat is a very shallow notion. If the only way WWE can use female talent is as sex objects I'd rather they didn't even have a "divas" division.

But is that really relevant? It doesn't matter how hard he hits, it only matters how hard it looks like he hits. Kanemoto and Steve Williams are always put over as guys that were really good at protecting their opponents and their strikes looked amazing. I'd say there's a much bigger gap in how good Nakamura's and Tanahashi's strikes look than how hard they hit.

It's a trope in Shibata matches and Ibushi did it one time a year ago. That's it.

Piroshiki from Dragon Ball Z is a Vader rip-off.

No chance. The Okada 2013 King Of Pro Wrestling match made me hate pro wrestling for a couple of weeks. I never find him great, I often find him good in a particular format (~15 min singles matches that aren't overly ambitious) but I've found him appaling in big matches far too many times, especially in 2011.

But can you point to what it is that Sekimoto does that engages you emotionally that Sugiura doesn't do? I absolutely agree with the bolded. I can think of so many guys that are great at getting "it" in professional wrestling and all the things I could point to with them. Can you do the same for Sekimoto please? I am interested but all I'm getting from your posts is that Sekimoto "gets it" in your opinion and in mine he doesn't. I am going to write paragraphs about my favourite workers' ability to do what you could very well describe as "conveying passion into work". I don't expect others to do the same, I just want a more precise idea of what it is that they enjoy about someone I might not (to that extent in this case). How does any of that make me a dick? As I have already said I don't think Sekimoto has any huge flaws. It's just that what he does doesn't impress me on a profound level that it does Alan and Joe because it mostly comes off as dull and emotionless to me. I'm not saying pro wrestling matches can't tell great stories. It's just that most pro wrestlng matches don't even have any narrative. Some pro wrestling matches have stories but they aren't great. Very little pro wrestling matches have told stories I consider great. Hence "in general". I definitely don't see it with Sekimoto but by all means make an argument for Sekimoto being a great storyteller.

Conveying a "great desire to win and overcome the odds" requires skill. Selling something with facial expressions and movements is a very important part of pro wrestling. It's not heart. Kobashi has heart, but if his passion translated into being a subpar professional wrestler instead of a great one I wouldn't care about him.

Heart? What do you mean by heart? His willingness to withstand a certain amount of Chops? I don't think "heart" is a quality that really matters in pro-wrestling. Brock Lesnar doesn't have any "heart" but he's better than a million guys that do. Story? Pro-wrestling matches in general aren't examples of great narration and Sekimoto would be the last guy to credit for something like that. I saw that Sekimoto vs Okabayashi match. I have it ranked as the 31st greatest japanese pro wrestling match that occurred in 2013. I can see why some would rate it higher-even a lot higher-but for someone to rate Sekimoto as one of the greatest 20 wrestlers ever based on matches like that being the most high-end stuff he's done......don't get it sorry.

I tried to start a best of Cena project on a local board a few years ago and it was almost done.......almost. I think Cena's career has really had three phases-before his main event run, his proto main event run (2005-2007) and THE run. As such I will divide the matches we accumulated as well as add a couple of those that happened afterwards which I think are deserving and some that I had seen acclaimed but didn't necessarily enjoy myself. Dates are DD/MM/YY. Pre 2005: John Cena vs Chris Benoit-Smackdown 17.4.2003. John Cena vs The Undertaker-Smackdown 7.8.2003. John Cena vs Zach Gowen-Smackdown 14.8.2003. John Cena vs Rey Mysterio-Smackdown 6.11.2003. John Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Backlash 2003. John Cena vs The Undertaker-WWE Vengeance 2003. John Cena vs Jesus-Armageddon 2004. John Cena vs Booker T-Summerslam 2004. The Gowen and Jesus matches are squashes-but very entertaining ones. These will give you an idea of how early Cena worked. 2005-2007 John Cena vs Kurt Angle-No Way Out 2005. John Cena vs JBL-Judgment Day Day 2005. John Cena vs Chris Jericho-Summerslam 2005. John Cena vs Edge-New Year's Revolution 2006. John Cena vs Triple H vs Edge-WWE Backlash 2006. John Cena vs RVD - One Night Stand 2006. John Cena vs Sabu-Vengeance 2006. John Cena vs Edge-Summerslam 2006. John Cena vs Edge - Unforgiven 2006. John Cena vs Umaga-New Year's Revolution 2007. John Cena vs Umaga-Royal Rumble 2007. John Cena vs Shawn Michaels-Wrestlemania 23 Cena vs Michaels vs Edge vs Orton - Backlash 2007. John Cena vs The Great Khali-Judgment Day 2007. John Cena vs The Great Khali-One Night Stand 2007. John Cena vs Bobby Lashley - Great American Bash 2007. John Cena vs Randy Orton-Summerslam 2007 John Cena vs Chris Jericho-Raw 22.8.2005. John Cena vs Sabu-WWE vs ECW Head to Head 7.6.2006. John Cena vs Rob Van Dam vs Edge-WWE Raw 3.7.2006. John Cena vs Chris Benoit-Raw 19.3.2007. John Cena vs Shawn Michaels-Raw 23.4.2007. I rewatched the RVD match and it didn't do nothing for me. Without any emotional investment it is just an subpar match. The Edge matches are, uhm........Edge matches and I don't think very highly of them. Don't get the hype for the Khali matches but they didn't suck so that's something. Now, true ace Cena, 2008-onwards: John Cena vs Batista-SummerSlam 2008. John Cena vs Chris Jericho-Survivor Series 2008. John Cena vs Chris Jericho-Armageddon 2008. John Cena vs Edge vs Big Show-Wrestlemania 25 John Cena vs Edge-Backlash 2009 John Cena vs Batista-Wrestlemania 26 John Cena vs The Miz vs John Morrison-Extreme Rules 2011. John Cena vs CM Punk-Money In The Bank 2011. John Cena vs CM Punk-SummerSlam 2011. John Cena vs Alberto Del Rio- Vengeance 2011. John Cena & The Rock vs. The Miz & R-Truth: Survivor Series 2011. John Cena vs The Rock-Wrestlemania 28 John Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Extreme Rules 2012. John Cena vs CM Punk-Night Of Champions 2012. John Cena vs Dolph Ziggler-TLC 2012. John Cena vs Mark Henry-MITB 2013. John Cena vs Daniel Bryan-Summerslam 2013. John Cena vs Alberto Del Rio-Hell In A Cell 2013. John Cena vs Alberto Del Rio-Survivor Series 2013. John Cena vs Bray Wyatt-Wrestlemania 30. John Cena vs Brock Lesnar-Summerslam 2014. John Cena vs Brock Lesnar-Night Of Champions 2014. John Cena vs CM Punk-Raw 23.11.2009. John Cena vs Chris Jericho-Raw 02.08.2010 John Cena vs CM Punk-Raw 12.11.2012. John Cena vs CM Punk-Raw 25.2.2013. John Cena vs Luke Harper-Smackdown 21.3.2014. John Cena vs Seth Rollins-Smackdown 27.12.2013. You will instantly find obvious omissions-this isn't even everything I wanted to list. I'll edit more matches in this post as I remember them. Recommendations would be appreciated.

This might be true. Might. I struggle to find anything he does insulting. But he doesn't really have a single major quality. And what makes him better than say, Suwama, Morishima, Sugiura, Go Shiozaki, Takaiwa, Kojima or Okabayashi? What is your argument for Sekimoto as a top 20 guy of all professional wrestling ever? What are the matches that he has produced that you are so high on that you would put him on that level?

It may be a "Kobashi match" in terms of layout, length and such but Kobashi was also constantly put in a position to produce those matches while Honda wasn't. If anything it was worked in the vein of NOAH epics-which weren't exclusive to Kobashi.

I like modern puro a lot. Sekimoto just doesn't do it right. He's always felt like a video game wrestler, nothing he does feels organic or particularly significant. The Suwama matches got pimped as MOTYCs and I swear you can find better Yano/Iizuka tags. Dull strike exchanges, no layout, it was a chore to sit through. Before everyone got injured there were probably at least 5 guys I preffered in Strong BJ only.