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Tully vs Magnum for me. Aside from the finish I though Hansen vs Colon was pretty close as well.

Im with the camp that doesn't see the match as nearly as offensive as it is being made out to be. It is a showcase spot fest no doubt about it, but if you have seen these two before it is just what you might expect from them against one another turned up just a little bit. I agree with Grimmas that this probably doesn't have a lot of staying power, but probably left a lasting impression on much of the live crowd. Overall, I thought it was a lot of fun. This isn't my favorite style right now, but I really enjoyed the match itself. It reminded me of that Red/Low-ki match from 2002 (I think) with all the martial arts spots early on (sorry if someone else brought that up - I just skimmed through the thread). Though the Red/Low-Ki match was better on the whole, it was similar in that they were throwing in some exchanges and counters that were certainly exaggerated, even for an "indy spotfest". In that, it felt like two guys playing with the wrestling genre and trying some new things while they had the chance (freedom to create, athletic opponent, etc). At the same time, it wasn't elite in my eyes. It wouldn't come close to consideration for my MOTY or anything like that. It was fun to watch, worth 20 minutes of my time. As others have said, there are better examples of this style that are toned down a touch and more measured on the whole as wrestling matches. I believe these two are perfectly capable of that, but it looked like they wanted to do something different. I feel kind of sorry for a wrestling fan that can't find any enjoyment watching that match. I don't mean to to be patronizing, honestly. It just such an impressive display of athleticism from two guys honing their craft, trying to entertain fans, and making a name for themselves. It certainly doesn't have to be anyone's cup of tea (hey, if you don't dig it you don't dig it) but some of the more visceral and severe backlash (here and elsewhere) makes very little sense to me. As Loss pointed out, this is a lot about innovation and athleticism that lost some of the staples and tropes people enjoy in pro wrestling, but that doesn't seem to me a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There still seems a great deal to appreciate and enjoy here.

Yeah, Brock's only real chance is to get to Hunt quickly, and overwhelm him with his strength. If Hunt is allowed to be patient and fend off Brock's takedowns, we may very well get an all-time knockout. I don't think Brock stands a chance in this fight if Hunt can keep the fight standing, but if he gets him down...who knows. Ohhh yeah, if Hunt can keep this fight on the feet it won't last long. He is an infinitely better striker and has touch-of-death power. I just think the jury is out on how effective Hunt will be at dictating where the fight happens. I know it was a few years ago now, but I think back to those Brock fights before he got sick and his speed and power going were absolutely stunning. Smart money is still on Hunt, but I'm hesitant to call it a sure thing.

I have only seen the Guerreros on the Mid South set but I have been really into them even there. The Von Erichs seem kinda crazy low to me. I am not a huge fan of the matches on the whole, but still... I would have thought they would have finished a good bit higher.

This fight makes a ton of sense to me. As a fight: Its a bad matchup, but it is one a truly healthy Brock COULD thrive in. He was always a bit of an overhyped fighter of course, but he was a physical freak, has increadible speed for his size, and is a tough dude. Hunt has good takedown defense, but its been YEARS since he has been in there with an actual wrestler who will try to take him down from the outside and who is strong enough to pick him up and toss him if he gets a hold of him. Even then, I am not sure if he has ever fought someone with the takedown skills of Brock and if he did he was a much lighter and younger man at the time. Hunt is an experienced fighter, but if he gets on his back against Brock, I am not sure what happens. On the other hand if he keeps it standing he might have to clock Brock a few times. Stylistically, I don't think this is quite as bad a missmatch as it is being made out to be and it presents a lot of unknowns in terms of advantages (which is what you want in a fight). As far as business, this fight is perfect. Hunt's last three loses come three of the last four HW champs and in his last 7 wins he put down a range of opponents, from contenders to gate keepers to guys who aren't even around anymore. In short, he could use a really high profile win to make him a legit exciting contender, and Brock provides that without potentially eliminating someone as a contender from a relatively thin division. On the other hand, Brock needs a name opponent, not some can, but they also don't want to potentially feed one of their top 5-6 guys to someone who is probably ust their for one fight. Hunt, as good as he is, has never been a huge priority to the UFC and at 42 years old is probably not in their long term plans. Hunt's popularity is based less on wins and loses and more on what he always brings to the cage, so the UFC doesn't really mind if he takes an upset, but if he wins they get more out of Hunt in the next two years than they could have ever hoped otherwise. Plus, if Brock wins he can go back to the WWE and say he beat an absolute legend in the sport with a 17 year fighting career that spans however many countries, a kickboxing champion and a multiple award winner in MMA. If he loses he can say he walked in the cage with that same guy and stood toe to toe with one of the most dangerous heavyweight strikers in the world (if they even want to bring it up). There is no shame at all in getting knocked out by Mark Hunt. Regardless, this is going to be a really fun fight. It might last 10 seconds, but it will be a fun 10 seconds

I imagine WWE sees this as a shot in the arm to Brock's profile. Just the image of him on a major UFC ppv, the visual of him walking out and (hopefully) the talking point of him winning will - I think they think - give them a little boost to the existing narrative about Brock. If he gets a relatively high profile fighter (especially one that will give him an opportunity to trash talk) this whole thing is win-win for the WWE because the build and his mere presence at the show will mean much more than the result. Honestly, I think the comparison between the E and UFC in terms of who looks good, legitimacy, and all that is overblown. It doesn't matter if he wins or loses. I suppose if he got embarrassed by someone no one knew and was visibly smaller than him it might not be great, but even still, it wouldn't be much beyond a wash given the publicity. I really don't think anyone is choosing to NOT watch the WWE if Brock lost a UFC fight, but they might choose TO watch because Lesnar is was just on a huge UFC card. Lesnar's wins and loses haven't really mattered in the UFC at any point. He is a huge profile guy, he has a presence... he has big time appeal that fighting needs and the WWE is trying to just put a little shine on.

Joe vs Nak is going to be really good. I am trying not to build it up to the point where it will never live up to my own hype.

Didn't feel purposeful to me. I guess maybe Balor could be turning a bit to set up him joining some version of the Bullet Club on the main roster, which I could get behind. It honestly just felt like Joe doing his job really well and the Balor character sort of hitting a weird dead end. I like Balor and all, that was just such a strange promo to me. You can't come down in a leather jacket and be the cool guy - popping your collar - ace of the promotion one day and then stare off in the middle distance like highschool kid that just lost his girlfriend the next. I'm suspecting Balor is going to the main roster soon (and this will play very little into his future) and Joe is going to be the new king of NXT for a while.

That little sit down between Joe and Balor wasn't perfect by any means, but it reinforced how revitalized Joe is as an overall performer right now. If anything he might have crushed Balor too much. Balor cam off a sulking, sad, complaining child. Joe came off as a confident champion who knows he has his opponent's number. Joe's true return to form is one of my favorite things in wrestling right now.

The article itself is a far more articulate account of what I was trying to get at.

Some of what that quote is getting at was being discussed a little int he post-wrestling thread. As for the quote,I do think it is a little more there than "we like wrestling so we see wrestling everywhere". Wrestling has been the obviously staged form of entertainment that passes itself off as reality for a long time. At its absolute core, wrestling attempts to blur the lines between reality and fiction in a way that gives the creators of the entertainment a level of control that the consumers don't assume. For a long time that was a thing that sort of defined wrestling, a point of juxtaposition against film, tv, and sports. Even after wrestling "came out" as entertainment I think it has still maintained a somewhat unique relationship with that line between shoot and work, entertainment and reality. Wrestling relationship with that in the 70s, 80s, and maybe even early in the 90s is now being mimicked in reality TV most obviously, in the way celebrities craft their personas (brands) via social media, and some might argue in certain political contexts. Sure, wrestling fans love seeing wrestling everywhere, but i don't think the original quote can be reduced to that.

Yokozuna was not actually from "the land of the rising sun". Although I thought it was the best fictional origin at the time, Cactus Jack did not hail from Truth or Consequences, NM.

When i was a kid I thought Brian Pillman and Tom Zenk were AWESOME. They had some absolute 5 star classics with The Steiners, Doom, The Road Warriors, and The Rockers in my living room. On the other hand, for some reason Barry Windham and Sid Vicious were a very successful tag team in that ring too and Arn Anderson and Andre The Giant had the hottest feud in the territory at one point, so it wasn't always an exact reflection of the "real" world. This seems about right for them.

The appeal of wrestling more broadly, to build and get one buy into the drama of competition, is so undeniable. Mainstream sports, political speeches, movies, ect.... how wrestling has been building drama, telling stories, and constructing narratives is very easily tracable in other forms of media/entertainment. The influence is a two way street of course, but wrestling has certainly made its mark and I can see how the lines are blurring in some ways. Where one draws the line of what actually constitutes wrestling is or isn't - eh... I am not sure what to make of that. I just know Wrestling needs more brands that sort of claim the title of wrestling and push the boundaries, think outside the box. I am not even sure mainstream companies need to get on that train directly. Fringes (be it in music, film, and even wrestling's own history) keep everyone on their toes and have the ability to make headway for progress.

Yeah, nothing really comes to mind off the top of my head. That is why I kind of wish they would have waited, put them on different shows and left the "who is the real champ" question unanswered. Though of course this probably would have led to WWE immediately abandoning the brand split thing as a significant distinction in rosters. The thing for me is I always found the most compelling parts of wrestling when there were multiple brands the curiosity and debate about who would really win. The kayfabe part of my brain can't help but want to see these champions go at it. And of course they have in the past, but politics determines outcomes. To me, the most potent part of a brand extension for the WWE is that they can manufacture that competition and ultimately pay it off in whatever way they want, but it depends on actually creating a clear distinction and not having as much bleed over as they did. Rollins coming back a little later and joining Smackdown and facing Cena (or whoever) for the championship at whatever ppv would have been one (not the only) way to establish that "what if" question right off the bat and building toward WM or something down the road. Again, i am not really complaining about what I am seeing on WWE TV right now. I am more just thinking out loud about alternatives. Rollins vs Reigns is going to be fun and it is probably going to be a pairing that delivers for quite a while.

I haven't seen as much of the Lawler/Dundee stuff (outside the big three loser leaves town matches), but it is awful close. The feud does feel more prolonged for Lawler/Dundee, like they were truly destined to fight forever. Steamboat and Flair had their matches over a long period of time of course, but it certainly feels more focused into 89, with even the 70s stuff sort of coming off in hindsight as a preview of sorts. I guess right now I would have to pick Flair/Steamboat, but that is mostly about what I have seen. I can imagine if I sat down and really dove into both of them I would come out caring more about Lawler/Dundee. I agree with the point that Flair/steamboat comes off as wrestling competition and Lawler/Dundee comes off as a real, hate-filled, life or death feud. I like that. That is what I really want out of my wrestling.

Reigns vs Rollins may very well define the company for the next few years. I do wish they had found a compelling way to slow build the tension between the two once Rollins is back. Honestly though, I am pretty happy with the main event scene right now so I am being knit-picky. I guess beggars can't be choosers.

Being terrified of the Road warriors during the late 80s. I have a vague memory of watching them throw pumpkins off the scaffold in that promo, but I would have been like 2, so I doubt I remember it from when it actually happened. I might have seen a replay later. I do remember that being one of the first things in wrestling I thought was really awesome.

god... you are probably right but I hope not. The styles matches were great except for the overbooking. They need to just let Reigns put on good matches. At this point he can probably keep just about anyone looking pretty strong (maybe even better) while beating them. I hate them giving out belts, but I kind of wish they had just waited and given Rollins another world title since he never lost his. Let the "who is better" question hang in the air for a bit, maybe pay it off at Mania.

You know, I always liked them in ROH and thought they were good, but it never seemed to equal the sum of the parts for me. I was so excited for them to come in and really mix it up in ROH because both had so much success there before, but MCM (if I remember correctly) were a product of TNA. It was cool to see them come in as a known commodity, with some history with the company, AND be able to have fresh matchups. Maybe I was too hyped for it, but I always just remember thinking - with the exception of a couple matches - that I thought the whole run would be a lot better. i should probably rewatch it at some point.

I am kind of excited. This sort of false competition has always been the WWE's best bet in the monopoly era. I hope against hope that they keep the shows completely separate with maybe the exception of Mania. I assume PPVs will be joint or at least all the big ones will be, but to me the biggest benefit of the brand split is you can build tensions and questions about who is better - questions that were all the buzz of fans in the Monday night wars - but this time you can actually pay them off if you are patient and don't put the rosters in much contact.

To backtrack briefly, I agree with most of the post Mania stuff being the big difference in Reigns. He was irritating when he was the chosen one but was being framed as this underdog title chaser. Now he is the chosen one and he is being framed as the chosen one. His "the guy" shtick is perfect for him. He is occupying that space that Cena occupied for years in a different way, not so much a tweener but a conscious hybrid, being a charicter that will divide the fans. I think he will get more and more cheers with each big time performance. As someone who kind of hated Reigns for a while (not sure if I ever talked about it here), that is what it is for me. I always thought he was pretty good, especially after he had the Bryan and Brock matches on back to back ppvs (tremendous performances - both). That proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he could be great if they stopped cutting his legs out from under him and started booking him for 2016 fans instead of 1995 fans. I think Reigns is also going to wind up being sort of an informal/implicit internet darling killer. I see them setting the ground work for Owens, Cesaro and Zayn to eventually be ready for matches with him to. It is brilliant because it plays into that concious hybrid thing I mentioned earlier. Reigns vs the MANY "internet darlings" is something that will galvanize fans in sort of a pure-fan-kayfabe way. If Reigns has a PPV match against Zayn it will have me. I will absolutely turn into a 8 year old rooting for my favorite wrestler during that match (as an aside, I think that match is going to be a huge one for them sooner rather than later). If they are smart they are going to use the blueprints for Cena/Punk and Cena/Bryan to book Reigns for the next 2-3 years probaby. There are lots of fresh variations they could put in. They proved how effective it could be with Styles. Their last match was AWESOME (overbooked, but awesome when they were actually wrestling). Reigns is great and when he is in there with someone who is experienced and athletic they can be great. I see a sort of staged list of people that can and will keep him an interesting champion. Stage 1 - no order Ambrose (should be next) Brock II Owens (wont be surprised if this is next - though I hope they keep playing up his heel characteristics) Rollins Cena Stage 2 Zayn (This is where I think the money is long term. Zayn chasing Reigns and finally being the one to overcome him sounds huge to me in a year or so) Cesaro Styles (Round 2) Rusev (lesser) Bray (lesser) Seamus (Round 2, lesser, though I want to see it get a big program) Stage 3 Balor Joe Nakamura I can see all those things happening if they want them to and I can see it all being really good. That doesn't even include Taker or people who could come back for one offs like Batista (PLEASE) or The Rock. And the best part of the Reigns reign is that someone should get a huge rub when they finally beat him. he hasn't just been built as the best, he has been built as an unbeatable monster. No one can put this guy down one-on-one. Brock fucking Lesnar couldn't even put him away. When someone does it is going to shine. (this means they will probably have The Rock beat him - sigh)

I thought the Jax/Bayley match as good. I was really high on their first match on first watch, but when I went back to it I was disappointed. The layout was fantastic, but the delivery was just eh. I thought Nia was better this time around, though things did sort of meander a bit for me in places. I am just not sure Nia is completely ready to take a bigger role. I like her, but there is a pretty noticeable drop off when she isn't just smashing women. I imagine Bayley is going up soon. It looks like they are also positioning Bliss and Carmella to take a bigger role. Asuka is about to have a lot of weight on her shoulders. On a different note, I am surprisingly excited for Joe vs Balor in the cage. This feud really made Balor interesting to me again and honestly has the sort of urgency that reminds me of some of the better ROH builds during its prime.

Not really answering the thread , but since race is something readily observable and has such a long and complicated history in wrestling, is it really ever possible to just be a black person who is a wrestler? It is one thing to say that an individual looks at it that way or that we should strive to look at it that way, but I question if people of color can ever completely escape being a "black wrestler" or an "asian wrestler". Even if it part of their character I wonder if it is always an implicit part of the way they are viewed and read by the audience. I am not sure there is a way to measure or "prove" that, but at least in mainstream American promotions I wonder if it is ever possible for people of color to completely shift into being "wrestlers". To return to the original questions might all black wrestlers are then working (intentionally or not) as "black wrestlers," navigating racialized waters and working harder for the same levels of respect? I can't think of anyone or any group that really constitutes a "white wrestler" the way it is being talked about here. I think John Cena in a way sort of embodies "whiteness" (good and bad) in a way that makes him the divisive character he is. Even his "rap guy" phase was one of the most "white America" things ever. Now he is the embodiment of the middle class white American Dream and some of the narratives of his success even mirror what people identify as charicteristics of white privilege. It isn't exactly the same thing you Luchaundead is really talking about, but my brain kept returning to Cena as a categorically "white" wrestler. In the same way Hogan might have been before him. Neither of them seem particularly classed in how they play their charicter either. Austin clearly played up tropes of working and lower class populations. Dusty the same. Flair the opposite. Of the people who have at various times and places represented the invisible white center of the wrestling universe, Cena (and to a slightly lesser extent hogan) sort of stand out as embodying some of the peripheral characteristics of "whiteness" as it might be thought of in opposition to other catiogries such as "blackness" or "asianness" etc. As to weather or not this is racist or problematic, eh... I don't really want to go too far down that road right now. I think they are part of a very complex contemporary situation that was born from a racist history. I am not sure categorizing wrestlers this way is racist as much as it is sort of an earnest acknowledgement of the realities of wrestling (realities that perhaps can and should be set aside in the name of enjoying a show sometimes, but are also really important and should be discussed in forums like this).