Reel

Those Japan deals basically paid for the entire national expansion, when New Japan comes back in 1985, the money they paid, mostly to have guys be able to work the Garden, bankrolled WrestleMania.

I believe that is actually the correct term for point karate, because they're not 'fighting.' Same goes for Judo player.

That Karate dude, who lost for knocking out his opponent, coming out to KO Ali ruled.

The best example for Seth is the Dominick match because as of yet, Dom hasn't shown all that much to my eye, and the match with Seth at SummerSlam was good. Roman also had a good match with Bray on an episode of Raw in 2018, one of the handful of decent Bray singles matches. As for this whole topic, I'd say Roman in a walk. He's a better TV worker than the other 2, a better main event worker, probably the best in trios of all 3, although that's more up for debate in my mind. I think I'd have Seth at 2, mostly because I think Mox is just kind of bad. He's one of my least favorite wrestlers currently, just a parody of all my least favorite things: consensual elbows to the trap mixed in with funny faces and some of the worst MMA rip off spots I've ever seen.

I watched a ton of ECW last year and was generally left unenthused, but I think Bigelow was good there. My 3 match recs would be: vs Sabu vs Taz - Hardcore TV 8/15/98 vs Taz - Living Dangerously 98 vs RVD - Hardcore TV 4/11/1998 Also the Spike Dudley matches are worth checking out, but you've probably seen the big spots from them at some point.

I voted for Shawn, because at no point has he pretended his arm was a chainsaw like he was in a bad improv class.

I think people re-evaluating the Tiger Mask stuff really hurt his perception. Those matches went from "incredible, 20 years ahead of their time" to "actually just kind of bad" and I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle, the matches are good, but I don't really consider them all-timers. I also think he may, somewhat unfairly, have some Benoit stink on him that doesn't help. Generally, though, I'd say he was good everywhere until he totally fell apart. Good stuff with Marty Jones in the UK, good stuff with Fujinami in New Japan, good stuff with Tiger Mask, good stuff with Buddy in Portland, good stuff in the team with Davey. I don't think he's a top 100 guy for me, but I wouldn't rule him out either.

It seems at least a handful of people are watching the 80s DVDVR sets as part of their viewing for this project. It's a great place to start but in the time since those sets got put together a lot of footage has come out and tastes are always changing. So, is there anything that got skipped over? Anybody who got short shrift? Any new matches that absolutely would have belonged, but hadn't been unearthed yet?

The Waldo match rules, just a wild spectacle and pure Bruno.

I'm not a lucha guy, but I find the whole "I can't get into it" to just be a sort of laziness and an excuse to handwave a ton of stuff. Like, just watch the matches, they are usually pretty basic; like at one point the rudo will take things too far and the technico will try and get them back. It's pretty basic pro wrestling. Santo is for sure a #1 contender for me, he's not a favorite for that spot, but he's in consideration. Guys not in that tier, but I expect to have high, like top half, on my ballot: Perro Aguayo Sr., Fuerza Guerrera, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Negro Casas, and Atlantis. Super Porky and Virus are close to locks for me too. Probably gonna vote for Black Terry and Solar too, LA Park is in that same bucket, same with Sangre Chicana. Might vote for Pirata Morgan, gotta watch more Villanos to figure out where those guys fall, but I can see myself voting for III or V. I've watched some of the Lola Gonzalez and Pantera Suerena stuff, which is good, and I'd like to watch more, but I don't know if there's enough out there for a GWE vote, but I'll plead ignorance on that point. As for current guys, Hechicero and La Sombra have a good shot at making it for me. I won't totally rule out Ultimo Guerrero, Volador Jr or Barbaro Cavernario, but they aren't really on top of mind when it comes to the 100 greatest wrestlers. I talked about these guys a little in the Not Yet thread, but guys who have an outside shot if things break in the right way for them by 2026: Arez, Aramis, Demonio Infernal, Villano III Jr, Templario and Soberano Jr. I think the same goes for Vikingo and Taurus.

There's more and more people talking about Bret, but I think it's hard to look at the landscape of modern wrestling and not think that Shawn is far and away more influential on the style. Its sort of like how 5 years ago every indie wrestler and promotion labeled itself a Strong Style, but the style resembled Kings Road much more than it did Inoki's New Japan.

I considered nominating Gage, because I think he warrants some consideration, but I don't see any way I'd vote for him; Outside of his match with Gulak is CZW I couldn't think of any matches to use for the nomination. He has an aura of legitimacy and people really buy into him, but like El-P said, he just kinda stinks, like the spot that I always think of is him putting a spinning armbar on Tom Lawler on some Black Label show, it just looked like complete shit, he shouldn't have done it, and Lawler should never have allowed it, just the absolute worst. He's like the worst possible version of Eddie Kingston.

which buck had a decent to good run in a best of the super juniors that made everybody say he was this great singles wrestler, i'd vote or him.

I like Kingston, but he's a guy, and there are a handful of these guys across a number of circles like this, where you read a glowing review of a match or see a ton of hype, and you just never see where that level of praise is coming from, despite repeated viewings. Like Segunda Caida will drop an EPIC on some Eddie AIW match, and I'll get around to watching it and it just seems like a fine match, and it seems to happen a lot, for me anyway.

I'd say he was actually one of the best guys they had on TV for his run, the stuff with Rey especially is some of the best TV matches in the history of the company. Here's his matches from the main roster that I dug: vs Rey Mysterio - Raw 1/20/20 vs Ricochet - Main Event 6/18/20 vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 1/15/19 vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 1/22/19 vs Rey Mysterio, Samoa Joe, and R-Truth - Fastlane 2019 vs Rey Mysterio - Raw 8/5/19 vs Chad Gable - Smackdown 9/3/19 vs Humberto Carillo - TLC 2019

My understanding was that CMLL was pretty much being run to sell tickets to tourists, and because there's a healthy appetite for that and they own the arenas, pre-pandemic it was basically just a license to print money and the wrestling really didn't matter, probably less than wrestling has mattered at any point in WWE history. I don't think it's a dying promotion, but it is an increasingly less relevant one.

If WarGames '91 doesn't count, and I suppose for the purposes of a question like this it probably shouldn't, then I'd say vs Sting/Luger from SuperBrawl '91. Are they still regarded as a great team? I'd say yes, but that reputation seems to be diminishing over time. I think that in some ways the Big Poppa Pump thing, and really more so the Steiner Math thing, has overshadowed pretty much everything that came before it for the vast majority of fans, so if you asked people for the greatest tag teams of all time, they might not mention the Steiners, but if you asked them if the Steiners were a great tag team, they'd say yes.

Someone recommended one of his other current titles, The Many Deaths of Laila Starr, and it didn't really grab me, but I heard this run of Swamp Thing was good and was pleasantly surprised to see it was the same guy.

He's a guy who has, in certain circles, a reputation as being one of the best wrestlers in the world, and I think if you find yourself in those circles and you check out a Suzuki match, you'll more than likely be disappointed. If for whatever reason you're really invested in Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch's vision of wrestling being the be-all-end-all of wrestling, then he's your dude. But, if you're not, then it's mostly just generally kind of boring. There's a lot of hand fighting early in matches that really doesn't work for me and rarely has much of a purpose, a lot of working of holds that isn't all that compelling to me, and just generally not a lot to sink your teeth into. There is some good stuff, like I think all 3 of the nominated matches are good, but his hit rate is infinitesimal in my view.

I don't think I'm the person to nominate her because I'm a sporadic Joshi viewer at best, but I think Chihiro Hashimoto deserves some discussion. She debuted in 2015, so she didn't have a shot at 2016's list, but in my limited viewing she's been one of the best workers in Japan almost from her first match.

I read the Gaiman/Wagner Sandman Midnight Theatre collab recently and really liked it. I'm planning on checking out the Wagner stuff later, so I'm glad to hear it's worth checking out. On the Sandman tip, I read the first issue of Ordinary Gods from Image, based almost entirely because I like the cover, and I thought it was pretty good. It has a sort of Endless sort of conceit. And while I'm here, the new Swamp Thing by Ram V has been pretty great so far.

I just finished the 80s Other Japan set, and despite the general thought that Takada didn't come out of that project looking great, outside of Fujiwara, he's the standout guy for me. His stuff with Maeda is on the same level as Fujiwara's, he's Yamazaki's best opponent, and he has the best matches with Sayama. Also considering Masashi Aoyagi for a bottom 5 spot for being the best bleeding guy in a karate gi.

The Hanged Man story early on in the second run might be the best comic I've ever read.

There are the small sample size guys, like Han and Tamura, who were always great, but they are both very much outliers in almost every sense. Outside of that, even the guys like Regal and Finlay, who have a rep for always being good at the very least, have fallow periods.

I think that the biggest difference is that Hero is more willing to venture into the epic and grandiose side of things, which is where you get some of his high-end stuff, which Cesaro has virtually none of, but some of his worst stuff too, like every almost every indie tag match Hero has ever had. I think you can see it in Cesaro's recent match with Roman, his first big main event shot, and its good, but you don't ever get a sense that Cesaro, the in-ring character, is reacting to the moment in a way that he should be, like he fights through the pain of the arm by continuing with the match, but his face doesn't really tell that story, his reactions don't really tell that story. Hero, for all his faults, in that sort of situation, would have gotten that element across.