CurtainJerker

Love Bobby, he was a super bumper with great timing, comedy, and could draw heat. That said I can't see how Elliot can rationalize Heenan being in the Top 5 based on Elliot's own Gordy List remix:

Interesting...will have to watch these 2002 matches. Dustin was amazing in WCW, liked his tag run with Stardust and his AEW work, but felt his 90s Goldust stuff was not good in the ring due to the character directives.

Bill James, the creator of the Keltner List, was a supporter of giving credit to losing seasons due to World War II and not having Negro League stats documented. One would think we ought to extrapolate from missing footage.

Have not revisited Shawn's return run in 10+ years, but I do recall boring headlocks in long matches, which is ironic since it's not what he's known for. I think he was trying to be what Danielson is today.

It's a swerve. Punk vs KENTA will happen.

Glad you said it, because it's true. I'll take it one step further and say if he wasn't such a beloved meme and so nostalgic due to Hulkamania, he would have been cancelled.

Tabletop Face to the Mat: The most creative tabletop wrestling game I have ever played. Super niche, but new sets are produced every two years. Your fed will become alive and offers many surprises. Includes booking plus playing out the matches. Fictional sets and historic and ersatz sets exist as well. It's basically a late 1990s/early 2000s Raw simulator. Champions of the Galaxy: The best fictional wrestlers/ongoing storyline I've come across. Great artwork. Has some strategy due to choices made with dice rolling. Been active since late 1986. Also is digital. Great community. Ultra Quick Wrestling: The best chart I've seen which resolves fights in a few seconds. Great for historical yearly sims. No more new sets or support anymore though. Downey Games has other overpriced wrestling games as well. PC Pro Wrestling Superstar: Digital version of the 1980s tabletop. Was disappointed that there's no real strategy/choices, and matches tend to go on forever due to the point system. Tom Vogel's Wrestling's Finest: Digital version. Insanely priced ($99) and you have to email Tommy to get anything. 1990s GUI. No real strategy. Total Extreme Wrestling (Extreme Warfare Revenge): What every booking game tries to copy. May be the best, but has major design issues and programmer Adam Ryland forces his vision of how pro wrestling works on the users. Wrestling Spirit 2-3: Best text game with play-by-play matches and abilities. Some GUI/database issues. Pro Wrestling Sim: TEW with less features but better GUI. Popular nowadays. TNM7: I'm sorry, but this game still look and plays like it's 1995. Should be shareware at this point, but it's overpriced. Tournament Edition is actually every cool, but the wrestlers only have the bare min. of stats, so it's a crapshoot. Fire Pro Wrestling World: Difficulty is either too hard or too easy. Dislike GUI for selecting/scrolling wrestling. Mobile 80s Mania, etc: Really was my favorite app when it first came out due to the characters and nostalgia. But the lack of strategy, grinding, and cash grabs killed my enjoyment. WWE SuperCard: Really was into this when it first came out. Loved the actual battles and card collecting. Not so much with the tournaments and cash grabs. Journey of Wrestling: Innovative web-based booking sim. So-so GUI. Wish it was downloadable because it feels like one day it will just disappear.

I could see the case for the #1 GWE to be Lou Thesz's if one extrapolates a bit. He technically was the GOAT in terms of mat work and championship defenses. Watched around 25 Lou Thesz matches, most of them twice. His 1950s stuff was his best. Pros: Longevity, long peak, authentic, legitimate, realistic, stamina, most respected and acclaimed World Champion, excellent tweener and heel work, shoot style selling and matwork, Man of 1000 Holds, main eventer, excellent opponents, finishes are "highspots" of the era and are usually flash pins. Cons: Didn't work the crowd and in many matches the crowd was for his opponent. He saw that as a feature, not a bug. His crowd manipulation required fans to pay attention to the match. The stakes were that the crowd was watching what looked to be authentic, so they required patience and there was tension. His sports entertainment qualities were virtually non-existent. He's a thinking fan's wrestler, but some of the longer matches put me to sleep (literally). I prefer heel bumping, movement, and entertainment than Thesz's submission holds. That's just my taste. I found his Memphis stuff to be out of time and over the heads of the studio audience. Same with his Japanese stuff- just feels cringe and he doesn't come off like a Living Legend a la Bruno Sammartino in the mid-1980s. Lou may have had a great look in the 40s and early 50s but he looked (and acted) 10 years older than his true age in every era. Considerations: Incomplete record on video; he has well over 5000 matches in his career. He was the exception to the rule- by the 1950s wrestling was sports entertainment for TV, yet Uncle Lou was the face of wrestling as a non-clown. Thesz was the prototype for Brisco, Backlund, Hart, Punk, Danielson, and FTR as a throwback/model/gatekeeper to what rasslin' "ought" to have been.

Peaks: Cena had 3 years where an argument could be made he was #1 in the world, Bret had 2. Cena was pushed as The Man in WWE longer. Longevity: Hart had 1500+ more matches than Cena, believe it or not. Both have had at least one match in 25 different years. Execution: Of course, Bret. Cena could be sloppy and not crisp. Consistency: Hart, although the revelations of him mailing it in at house shows hurts him. Cena started off bad and improved every year, and eventually became a modern spot monkey during the U.S. Open Challenge. Volume of big matches available: Cena. Went above and beyond with limited opposition and opportunity: Yes, Bret was the King of the Dark Ages. If I was a booker I'd go with Hart to have a better quality match, Meltzer's star ratings be damned.

He seems like a different animal in ROH matches, similar to how his NXT matches were at another level compared to WWE main roster. I still have issues weighing him being a charisma vacuum/forcing a character, i.e. Dean Malenko.

It really shouldn't. It's amazing how it was so offensive to people, even though in the end we are all attempting to quantify the subjective. I'd recommend a Preference Checker to build a list as well: https://czeckd.github.io/preference-revealer/dist/ I may be cynical but it all ultimately comes down which wrestler has the most appealing style to voters, also called My 100 Favorite Wrestlers. I do confess I would have liked some rules or marching orders besides "there are no rules besides the wrestler must have been nominated" and "footage, footage, footage".

I think we need a new thread title: "is PWO crumbling before our eyes?"

Hi Elliot, I had to digest what you said here and on Discord for a long time. You are blowing my "access to opponents" line (which was in a listing many other items) way out of proportion. I never said Hogan didn't carry worse wrestlers, or that it relates to him getting over in Japan. I meant that Vince would heat up good opponents for him in important events seen by many. Compare that to a Rip Rogers or John Tatum type. My point is not all wrestlers have the same opportunities in the big show against big opponents. Hogan over in Japan because of his unique looks, not because of his in-ring work. I grew up with him and watched all of his matches on video. I can see he was good. I don't want people reading this think I am against him. I just don't see how he was a better wrestler than the technical ones or specialized brawlers/high flyers. He was more entertaining, though. Jim Londos was a great wrestler, but he was #1 in box office because of his looks. He got the push because of his looks. He made the best of it. Great format: beauty vs the beast, make the comeback. I don't think you convinced me that you are judging Hogan just based on his matches. I'm not sure why Hogan's superstardom and being pushed in the main slot (and others being unable to take his place) should count for GWE. Or stuff like Vince asking him to do stuff outside of his comfort zone. Not sure why him excelling in sprints (something almost everyone in Stardom does) overrides him not having stamina. Not sure why he gets "points" for the occasional suplex compared to The Steiners making up new suplexes. You had a lot of faint praise for Hulk: underrated tag wrestler, limited yet efficient moveset, willingness to bleed, good puncher, and not as a bad athlete as we remember. Do you use that same criteria for others? Hogan may rank #593 in willingness to bleed. Why is it even a factor? There are many others who were better sellers and tag wrestlers than Hulk. Was he in the Top 10 of each? Maybe selling, but I didn't list them out. But having great apron work reminds me of when Jericho says he is GOAT because he reinvents himself every few months. Since when is that a criterion for GWE? Maybe it is, since anything goes as long as we watch the videos. When I read debates, it seems like everyone just makes their own system up. Maybe I should, too. Except when I bring up using canon or titles or awards, I am told that is not GWE. Why deduct a point from Steamboat for not being a heel, when he perfected being a babyface, while Hogan was basically an anti-hero as a babyface? Give Hulk a bonus for being a great heel with the nWo. That should not be a negative for Ricky especially since promoters refused to turn him. Vince McMahon, Sr., Sam Mushnick, Verne Gagne, and "the boys in the back" viewed Bob Backlund was a better wrestler and worker than Hulk Hogan, but Hogan was the better mainstream draw, more popular, had better look/size, had more charisma, and was better on the mic. Hogan knew Backlund was the better wrestler. Backlund at his peak had great crowd connection, but he lost them toward the end of his run. So did Hogan, by the way. In fact his peak is a lot smaller than many believe, as was his match output. When Hogan and Dusty Rhodes try to wrestle like Backlund (armlocks, submissions) they almost always failed and those sequences were boring. In other words, they were poor mat wrestlers and had poor execution of the basic fundamentals of being pro wrestlers. But boy, they could sell, had great comebacks, had charisma, and made tons of cash. It feels like the Pro Wrestling vs Sports Entertainment debate, which taken to its logical conclusion results in "anything goes, all styles are created equal, wrestling is absurd". All the voters all value different things. Lots of it is based on us being entertained. Some say we are just voting for our favorites. Last time in the GWE, Hogan averaged #41 and Backlund was #54. Where would you rank Backlund if you have Hogan penciled in at #75?

Re: Cody When he was booking his own stuff in 2019, he was the highlight of 2019. Once TK demoted the EVPs from booking at the beginning of 2020 (rumored due to the Dark Order beating up the Elite to end the show, and Dave Meltzer was crying on his podcast), Cody's programs were never the same but I was still into him and never understood the fans turning on him. It is wrong to hold him accountable for his lack of push and angles. His matches and promos were great. The bottom line is he and The Elite had different philosophies and styles, i.e. "creative differences". He wanted to be the ace of the company, too, which required a 8-12 month World Title run. Re: The Young Bucks leaking that CM Punk wanted Colt to be fired. As TK said in Forbes, how ridiculous does this actual sound in practice? The bigger question (to me) is did TK speak with Punk and Colt about if they could work together before Punk was signed? Because all of us saw the potential issues. I don't appreciate posters and Cornette using uncited information that The Bucks make up stories and leak them. Wrestlers have always leaked info to the dirt sheets. Complaints are from their POV. The shady ones like Konnan and ECW crew manipulated Dave and Wade. But people are saying the Bucks have engaged in straight fabrication but have presented no evidence. And The Bucks have a history of stirring the pot? Why, because they didn't like Cornette in ROH or were treated like crap at TNA? Sounds weak to be feel threatened by The Young Bucks complaining about their push in badly run promotions. Re: Who started it? Well, I heard Punk challenge Hangman on TV and every EVP during the press conference. He did say to confront him in the "hallway" and not "dressing room", so I guess he and Ace Steel will claim self-defense because apparently The Young Buck's superkicks can smash down doors and threatened Larry. Look, I listened to Cornette's defense of Punk so I am not ignorant of both sides, but Punk comes off as paranoid, self-centered, egotistical, narcissistic, and humiliated the company and his boss. Punk's "truth" is his truth. It's not The Truth. At worst, The Young Bucks come off as juvenile and passive-aggressive, but not like scary raving lunatics. Sorry, folks, I really can't hate on Hangman. He's a sensitive guy and works hard. Hangman actually doesn't need advice from Punk or Sting. Punk is the one who brought Terry Funk into this, but Hangman was answering a question about Punk + Sting. The Elite are basically self-trained and self-made, and think Punk and other vets underrate their careers because they were not in WWE. Veterans have always had told the current generation to "slow down". No one listens. Get over yourself! Big deal, Hangman cut an insider promo on Punk to promote their PPV match. It was an ambiguous one liner. Colt wasn't mentioned. When he said it I thought he was talking about how Punk isn't really a locker room leader, and is in fact taking Hangman's spot away as champ. After all, wasn't that Punk's complaint in WWE? Worked shoots seem to be done every week on AEW, anyway! Why all of a sudden do we have to be on Punk and Eddie Kingston's side when their feelings are hurt? They clearly could dish it out on the mic but can't take it. Screw Punk for creating an image where he thinks he is a worker's rights advocate, when he didn't say a word in defense of other AEW wrestlers having issues. He doesn't do AEW charity events when I watch vlogs, not even meet and greets like Thunder Rosa, Sammy and Tay do every week. Come to work, goes home. An ex-WWE outsider coming in and running things now. To me, that's what Hangman was saying. Re: TK's leadership skills Pretty much non-existent. He let the inmates run the asylum. No attempt to handle the women. His roster is enormous and wrestlers left off TV/PPVs feel bad. The recent promotions (Tony Schiavone, QT Marshall, Pat Buck, Sonjay Dutt, Madison Rayne) were a joke. Unfortunately people like William Regal and Arn Anderson have no desire to help book or format shows. But what about Mark Henry, Chris Jericho, Dustin Rhodes, or Paul Wight? Billy Gunn seems like someone who would gladly take more responsibility. You guys may find faults in them, but I'd much rather take guys who were actual TV stars and command backstage respect that the recently promoted pushover paper-pushing VPs. I appreciate how nice and generous TK is, and would love a boss like him, but he obviously can't deal with discipline. Most of the workers just have to come to work on Wednesday and get paid A LOT OF MONEY to work 25-52 matches a year. So the fact that there's so much turmoil (the workers are biting the hand that feeds them) makes them come off as very entitled and immature. Re: The Punishments SI: "The list of those receiving suspensions includes Omega, Matt and Nick Jackson, Pat Buck, Christopher Daniels, Michael Nakazawa, and Brandon Cutler. Multiple sources have shared that Punk and Ace Steel will either be among those suspended, or will no longer be with the company by the end of Wednesday. Punk met with Khan on Tuesday, so the two had an opportunity to discuss how that exit could be handled." It looks like Brian Last's breaking news about personnel getting suspected was correct. Good for him for not spreading fake news. Suspensions for The Elite is fine, although IMHO they were goaded by Punk and "had" to confront him as per the rules of masculinity. However the coaches/"VPs" need to be permanently demoted. If Punk and The Elite could never work together or appear on the same shows again, then I do agree it is best if Punk takes his ball home (again). What a mess considering he just beat Mox clean for the World title. My best friend (casual fan) warned me when Punk came in that AEW didn't need him and he was toxic; she was right. Hey, I am open minded to condemn everyone involved. Two wrong don't make a right. I challenge you to do the same if you are offended I took The Elite's side over Punk.

Hahaha

Ted DiBiase was a pure technician in St. Louis and was pushed high on the card and fought other Hall of Famers. From the matches and clips I have seen, those are legit matches which would have been considered going "all out" by his peers and audience, including broadways. That's why his name was dropped as a possible NWA World Champion. We could already see in his early WWWF run what he was capable of even with handcuffs. Wish I saw his Georgia run, and Amarillo. His Mid South/UWF was stuff was the most exciting and holds up today. Was one of my favorites at the time there. Interestingly enough Bill Watts wasn't high on Ted as much as he loved Steve Williams and Jim Duggan. He didn't feel Ted had a killer extinct or exuded "toughness". The disappointing Japanese matches are problematic. Million Dollar Man was all gimmick and it worked for his time and place. Almost every match was a snooze fest for me, a great cure for insomnia, outside of a handful matches (maybe Savage, but it is hit and miss with him), and one has to dig for them. In the NWA, he did everything right to become the second coming of Jerry Brisco or Dory Funk, Jr but the standards of the time had changed. Wish things were different and The WWF Million Dollar Man wrestled more like Flair or Bockwinkel instead of...Terry Taylor or Dick Slater, I guess? Even Slater was better in Japan. Ted was at his best when making comebacks and brawling, not to mention he could be plugged in any angle as a heel or babyface (anywhere) and it immediately got everyone's attention. Still at Top 100 career when you look at his Halls of Fame inductions, number of matches, getting over in various promotions, opponents, memorable angles, best heel in WWF at the time, still remembered, appearing on people's lists, respect of his peers and promoters, etc. Just imagine if he had a legit World Title reign and/or worked with The Horsemen. I don't think the lack of "Great Matches" (a suspect theory anyway) ought to take away from his career, and as I mentioned at the onset he probably did have his best capable matches against Flair, Race, the Funks, Slaughter, Patterson, Duggan, etc. Before WWF, he was a guy who seemed to give it his all and really went out to have his best matches, and I suspect he knows this and had different instruction from road agents in WWF to slow it down.

It's not a hill I want to die on since I have no stake in Gilbert or Janela or getting serious about hypothetical time traveling, but even early 1980s WWF Eddie Gilbert knew the basic psychology and selling of how to work an undercard match. He was similar to Curt Hennig of that timeframe. Eddie showed his great personality after he left. Eddie knew how to pull off hot angles wherever he showed up, but he was unreliable. Drugs and Missy did him in. He was even messed up in the WWF (car crash) and Backlund have him a vote of no confidence. So that's why I ranked him in a huge range between QT and Cody, because Eddie was smart about the business and a good mic guy. Eddie would have been real lucky to pull off a Jeff Jarrett career. He wanted the Jerry Lawler career. Eddie's size (still bigger than Joey) would be a non-issue in AEW, which was a deal-breaker in the 1980s/1990s major leagues. Joey never has shown an aptitude for working a basic match like Eddie did and when he tries he shows he ought to stick to garbage wrestling, sadly. He is basically a poor man's Mick Foley with ADHD, an even worse look, and an unprofessional moment which "made him" (the rooftop bump). Joey would be a non-prospect from the 1950s-90s, an untrained one-shot TV jobber if he was lucky. Joey couldn't even get over in AEW.

Here are the Hogan and Piper matchups from all markets: 1 WWF @ Boston 6. Oktober 1984 @ Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts (United States of America) Roddy Piper defeated Hulk Hogan (c) by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 2 WWF @ San Diego 19. Oktober 1984 @ San Diego, California (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 3 WWF @ Buffalo 30. Oktober 1984 @ Buffalo Memorial Auditorium in Buffalo, New York (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 7,500 4 WWF @ Boston 3. November 1984 @ Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 5 WWF @ Salt Lake City 10. November 1984 @ Special Events Center in Salt Lake City, Utah (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 6,700 6 WWF @ Phoenix 11. November 1984 @ Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix, Arizona (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 7 WWF The War To Settle The Score 18. Februar 1985 @ Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 26,092 8 WWF WrestleMania I 31. März 1985 @ Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Mr. T defeated Roddy Piper and Paul Orndorff 22,000 9 WWF @ Los Angeles 13. April 1985 @ Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena in Los Angeles, California (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 12,000 10 WWF @ Oakland 14. April 1985 @ Coliseum Public Market in Oakland, California (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 12,000 11 WWF @ Baltimore 4. Mai 1985 @ Civic Center in Baltimore, Maryland (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Jimmy Snuka defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 7,800 12 WWF @ Landover 11. Mai 1985 @ Capital Centre in Landover, Maryland (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 13 WWF @ Hershey 17. Mai 1985 @ Hersheypark Arena in Hershey, Pennsylvania (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper no recorded result [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 14 WWF @ Montvale 19. Juni 1985 @ Fieldhouse in Montvale, New Jersey (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. by DQ 15 WWF @ Philadelphia 29. Juni 1985 @ The Spectrum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 12,175 16 WWF @ Minneapolis 30. Juni 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America) Bob Orton Jr. and Roddy Piper defeated Paul Orndorff and Hulk Hogan by DQ 6,000 17 WWF @ Baltimore 6. Juli 1985 @ Civic Center in Baltimore, Maryland (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper DCO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 18 WWF @ Minneapolis 21. Juli 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 4,000 19 WWF @ St. Louis 26. Juli 1985 @ St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. and Roddy Piper 6,500 20 WWF @ Minneapolis 25. August 1985 @ Met Center in Bloomington, Minnesota (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. [Steel Cage Match] 21 WWF @ Cincinnati 2. September 1985 @ Riverfront Coliseum in Cincinnati, Ohio (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 10,366 22 WWF The Wrestling Classic 7. November 1985 @ Rosemont Horizon in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by DQ [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 14,000 23 WWF @ West Palm Beach 25. November 1985 @ West Palm Beach Auditorium in West Palm Beach, Florida (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 24 WWF @ Chicago 13. Dezember 1985 @ Rosemont Horizon in Rosemont, Illinois (United States of America) Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper and Bob Orton Jr. 12,400 25 WWF @ St. Louis 25. Januar 1986 @ Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Hulk Hogan (c) defeated Roddy Piper by CO [WWF World Heavyweight Title Match] 8,000

Ironically Billy Gunn is better on the mic in his environment and looks like a towering, tanned superhuman in AEW at age 58. He oozes charisma based on his look and his work looks pretty tight (I liked his Darby feud). I think he was overshadowed by Road Dogg's mic work and mannerisms, something than Anthony Bowens is dealing with with Max Caster at the moment.

I binged 120+ Rick Martel matches recently, from 1977-1998. I may make a report of it one day, but here are my conclusions: He was always great. He was the epitome of a true professional. Wrestling canon really just gives him a year in the Top 10, and even in that year he was overshadowed by others, but he was one of the most consistent and hard-working wrestlers. He always told a logical story. He always enhanced his opponents and let them get all their stuff in. (When asked to be dominant in a WWF/WCW TV squash, he'd do it.) For as much as I had believed Arn Anderson was the most consistent and underrated, I think Martel is superior to Arn as an in-ring talent and had the better career, and don't believe Arn would disagree. He was versatile: he could fit in anywhere on the card, work singles or tag, had slightly different babyface characters, and his heel work is severely underrated. He was a natural and wanted to please the fans. He was always listening and reacted to them. He wrestled all around the world and fit in wherever. Another thing that is overlooked is that he actually was able to work the 1990s indie style by taking all of Don Callis's ECW inspired highspots. Rick was great at taking moves and selling them. He made lesser opponents look great, yet is not mentioned in the same breath as a Harley Race or Ric Flair when it comes to that. Outside of the ring, he was beloved by his peers. Rick was a top tier scientific wrestler. As a babyface, I felt he was better at the "amateur style" than a Bob Backlund, Ted DiBiase, or Bret Hart. I think he was more agile and had better highspots than Dory Funk, Jr and Jack Brisco. He didn't have a copy and paste routine like Ric Flair. He had a varied moveset which depended on the match. He had a fiery comeback, which Tito Santana and Pedro Morales get more credit for. He was a great babyface in peril and is equal to or greater than Ricky Morton and Ricky Steamboat in terms of selling. He could get "aerial" like an Antonino Rocca or Jim Brunzell, not to mention Jimmy Snuka. Frankly, Rick could be plugged in "as-is" any era from 1900 to 1995 with no problems. And he was so athletic (and handsome) I don't see why he wouldn't do well today. Rick had many bang-bang TV WWF matches, where he was only given a few minutes to shine, and did great in them. So he adapted from The King's Road style to short match highspots. That said, for as much as some of his fans are really high on his WCW comeback during the Monday Night Wars (and yes, I liked him his comeback too) he did seem like a man out of time, a la 1992 Bob Backlund. He basically tried to win the fans over with scientific wrestling and his character was a clean babyface. But by 1998 the wrestling world had moved on (fans turned on him vs heel Booker T). His accent was fine and realistic for babyface promos of the time. But, yes, I could understand how promoters would unfairly heavily penalize him and give him no credit for his mic work. After all, in his era some of the best mic workers were active. Many people are too harsh on The Model. He reinvented himself to stay relevant, and it worked. He changed his moveset because that was mandatory in the WWF. People still remember The Model. He probably would have been cut without it since Vince typecast him as a tag guy or a babyface who couldn't speak. The fans were always engaged with The Model, even when he's in the ring with Virgil or Bob Holly. He allowed the babyfaces to shine. He had a new bag of tricks. Rick showed he was a natural heel. The turn actually fits his career's character arc- Rick was tired of playing by the rules and was arrogant about his talent. He could have pulled off Mr. Perfect. It is interesting to note that he did play a heel as AWA champ if he was in a hostile city. I saw it twice against Jerry Lawler and Leo Burke. Verne Gagne did not book him as a dominant champ, and his opponents in kayfabe gave him too much of a challenge while Hogan was legdropping his in 6 minutes, but his match quality was excellent. In a handful of matches, the tough crowd AWA fans chanted "boring" or got restless. But to Rick's credit, he would bring them back on track. Rick could not compete with Hogan and Flair's charisma. But the thinking fan should see how great he was. His Nick Bockwinkel series is better than Flair-Steamboat, and his AJPW work is pure wrestling.

Yes, this is Fred Kohler Enterprises. I was shocked this bout started off so fast considering the era. Hoss battle. I loved it. I could not believe how much the ring shook. I felt the first two falls were virtually timeless; they held up very well looking back from 2022, mostly due to Moose, although Bobo held his own. Third fall I had a feeling it was going to a time limit draw when the body scissors were invoked and both men were catching their breathes. Fans thought the double wrenching head scissors was the most revolting thing they ever saw. Was it a rib or comical on purpose? I don't know. They were pissed at the draw, a tradition that continues into the modern era. Based on this match and Moose Cholak + Mighty Atlas vs The Kangaroos I believe that Moose is a severely overlooked and underrated name. He needs to be mentioned with the likes of Jerry Blackwell, Vader, Bam Bam Bigelow, Gorilla Monsoon, etc. He never comes up in Wrestlers of the Year discussions from the old mags and newsletters. Not in any Halls of Fame. No major titles. Complete record lost to history on the online databases. I could see him being THE real big man of his era. This man BUMPED and MOVED, got heat.

My initial reaction was to look at Cagematch and sort the Match Guide. However, I too believe Raven meant "best match" according to his potential, where he and his opponent clicked and tore the house down, and he didn't see any flaws So it's not quite a Greatest Match Theory. However, I did go down that rabbit hole just for shits and giggles. Defining a "great match" as any match with 4 or more stars by Dave Meltzer and/or 8 or more Cagematch voters, here's what I found: Raven Raven had two 4 star matches by Dave: 4-19-1998 vs DDP and vs A.J. Styles 8-27-2003. For Cagematch users, not including a Royal Rumble match, he only had one match over 8.0- a 3-Way vs Chris Benoit and DDP from 3-15-1998. One problem with judging wrestlers is a lack of sample size, however. Dave never rated his Punk feud, and deemed Terry Funk vs Raven the only match worth rating in Raven's entire ECW run. Dave and Cagematch had no desire (or access) to rate his GWF or first run WWF matches either. Dave only rated one match from his earlier WCW run (a 3-1/4 star random tag). Cagematch's score for the Tommy Dreamer Loser Leaves Town was 7.54. All in all, between both rating systems only 40 matches (including battle royals) from his 1502 career bouts (Wrestlingdata) have been rated. As far as PWO goes (and deep dive PWO suggestions do not necessarily mean "great matches"), in the GWE thread, these matches were recommended: Rhino at Backlash 2001, Raven & Perry Saturn vs Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko Spring Stampede '99, double dog collar match w/Stevie Richards vs The Pitbulls, Goldberg, and Saturn. Kevin Sullivan Kevin Sullivan has a worse legacy on Cagematch. Two from Dave: 4.5 star tag Nasty Boys vs Cactus Jack + Kevin and 4 stars for the infamous Benoit Falls Count Anywhere match. Cagematch shuts out Kevin, with no great matches (highest is 7.51 for the Benoit one). Nothing rating from Florida, Memphis, Japan, etc. PWO doesn't list any outstanding matches. Eddie Gilbert I also link Eddie Gilbert with these "great mind" booking guys. One 8 from Cagematch- Barry Windham & Ric Flair vs. Eddie Gilbert & Ricky Steamboat. Dave also gave it 4 stars. And Dave gave 5 stars to Eddie vs Terry Funk's Deathmatch from 11-14-1992. None of Eddie's territory work is rated. A PWO thread recommended: - Gilbert vs Cactus Jack (Power Hour 3/23/90) - Gilbert vs Jerry Lawler (WWA 11/09/90) - Gilbert vs Jeff Jarrett (USWA-TX 12/29/90, 1/5/91 on the YB in error) - Gilbert vs Jeff Jarrett (USWA-TX 2/22/91) - Gilbert/Christopher vs Pritchard/DWB (USWA Studio 5/18/91) - Gilbert vs Cactus Jack (TWA 8/3/91 3 match series) - Gilbert vs Terry Funk (WWA 1/23/93) - Gilbert vs Terry Funk (ECW 6/19/93) - Lawler-Gilbert match on 2/15/91 Jake Roberts And finally Jake Roberts has no 8 Cagematch ratings but Dave gave him three 4 star matches: Blue Panther, Konnan & Perro Aguayo vs. Eddy Guerrero, Jake Roberts & Love Machine, Cien Caras, Konnan & Perro Aguayo vs. Jake Roberts, Love Machine & Miguel Perez Jr., and the Snake Pit Match vs. Ricky Steamboat. PWO recommends the Flair match, Steamboat Boston Garden, Savage SNME, Dustin, Dirty White Boy, HTM WM3, Blindfold Martel, 92 Rumble, Bart Sawyer, vs Cien Caras vs Konnan Jake vs. Brad Armstrong (4/16/85) Jake vs. DiBiase (7/22/85) Jake vs. DiBiase (7/2885) Jake vs. Humongous (11/29/85) Jake vs. Slater (1/1/86) Jake vs. Slater (1/24/86) Jake vs. Taylor (2/11/86) Jake vs. Slater (2/14/86) Jake vs. Slater (2/28/86) Time Travel Just a random thought but if all of these men were in their primes in 2022: Raven would have created a meme character who really got over, and probably would have had better laid out and famous deathmatches. Kevin Sullivan would not get over in a major company in U.S., either as his bodybuilding earlier self or the ugly brawler/cult leader. But I can see him being respected if he had stiff Japanese matches. I think he's a better worker than Bray Wyatt, who has nine 8+ Cagematch and 13(!) 4 and above Observer matches. Eddie Gilbert, I just can't see him coming close to the legacies of Jerry Lawler or Jeff Jarrett. I can see him trying to be a Cody-type, and failing, which is QT Marshall, although with a small chance of being MJF. Jake Roberts could potentially be Malakai Black.

Notes on how to kill the main event and impress no one?

Not as a worker (his 4+ WON star or 8+ Cagematch matches have all been multi-man matches, not single matches.), but people have rated Kane high on all-time lists. He also won Most Overrated 3 times, had pretty good showings in the PWI 500 and won Tag Team of the Year(s), i.e. he always got press. Ranker.com: Top 20 of all time WWE DVD: Top 50 Matt Farmer's All Time Draws: Top 60 Estate website: Top 65 Sports Illustrated: Top 85 Cleveland.com: Top 95 PWO didn't nominate him in 2016, but he is on the list now.

Here's The Sportster saying how smart Kane was in 2015: