goodhelmet

Piper's Canadian

I dont think it is fair to exclude foreign workers who have a great volume of work here in the states (I really want to put Bill Dundee here) so I am going to eliminate American workers who would be on this list for their overseas work. Jerry Lawler Ric Flair Buddy Rose Randy Savage Ricky Morton Rey Mysterio Arn Anderson Dick Murdoch Bryan Danielson / Daniel Bryan JC Ice (just to represent a Dundee here)

I've long wondered about Keith's psychology. He's some guy who likes to say strange, counterintuitive tidbits with the seeming goal being to make himself seem like the insider who has all the information. Most of his past works are obviously sensationalistic by nature, and he writes history with the intent of putting himself over more than constructing narratives that are supported by both facts and critical analysis. Honestly, he reminds me of those carny barker trolls who used to frequent wrestling figure websites by claiming his inside source within Jakks has given him a list of the next few sets of figures, creating an impressive but obviously bs list in the process. Over time, those people were banned or not trusted, but it got them over for that minute I suppose. IIRC, Keith wrote a book called "The Death of the WWE". If he did, I wonder how he justified that title given that the company was still making ginormous amounts of money that WCW could only dream of. I think he's someone who has some low level sources and he takes their word as gospel, rather than, as you say, only believing the stories that are backed up by further evidence. I don't think he even has low level sources.

I just want to make sure that jdw doesn't compare himself to the Beatles again or I might have that stroke.

Is that your finisher? "The Texan Rib" Everyone knows in Texas, a rib isn't a joke... it's dinner. Plus, my finisher would be the Belt Buckle. Since you are from Texas I thought it would be an intestinal virus, toxic shock syndrome or and indictment for possession of pain killers Post of The Decade If I challenged the legitimacy of this statement, would you secede from the board?

I was going to pull a tomk with that last post.

I just noticed the pigtails. Puts this one over the top.

It's a Texas Death Match, which is essentially No Holds Barred / No DQ with the title held up in an MSG-only angle, hence the pop at the end and Bob (and the crowd) looking as close to a title winning look as you saw in this period. A lot of the TDM were like this: they'd do spots to get across the concept, but it would then force them into working a match. The point didn't seem to be to escalate the violence from start to finish, but to eliminate the screwiness that caused the prior match to go off the rails. In this case, they did their early spots, and then got down to destroying each other's legs... which was a whole selling point of Greg in the feud(s). It's a damn good match. John Then they finally got the formula right for the Sarge vs. Sheik Boot Camp match. I prefer violence on top of violence.

As a straight edge guy, how would you know if Milwaukee's Best is shit? I am straight edge guy who toured with shitty punk bands filled with alcoholics, career criminals and degenerates from the time I was 14 til the time I was twenty. I know more about bad beer and hard drugs than most rednecks/junkies. As a 15 year old drinking MB, you didn't drink beer for the taste. Back to the topic, I came up with 22 guys so my GOAT bar is 22.

I was there live for the HIAC HHH vs. Taker also. Enjoyed it more than the one from the year before. Then again, I didn't have to listen to the melodrama in the ring.

Is that your finisher? "The Texan Rib" Everyone knows in Texas, a rib isn't a joke... it's dinner. Plus, my finisher would be the Belt Buckle.

As a straight edge guy, how would you know if Milwaukee's Best is shit?

The first match that came to mind without really thinking is the Michael Hayes vs. Kerry Von Erich cage match that finished really high on the Texas set. The other match that I think comes to mind that I have grown to really appreciate is the Chris Adams vs. Kevin Von Erich match from the Mid South set. That went 5 minutes tops.

I can't defend King's Court but I will say one thing about Flair for the Gold... it made Flair, who was once the epitome of cool, into a very uncool guy. Funk's Grill was easily the best segment.

If it means JVK ranks Lawler third, I'll take it.

Since Loss created the Microscope, I have gone back and read some of the old threads. Valentine is a guy who may be part of the greatest in-ring feud with Santana. If I could come up with a disc or 2 of his pre-WWF stuff, I would consider doing a Valentine set. On the first WWF set, Valentine really got the shaft. Only two matches appeared... Greg Valentine vs Ricky Steamboat (6/21/85 MSG) Greg Valentine vs Ron Garvin (9/30/89 MSG) Comments about Valentine from the new WWF 80s set nominations... Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81) Holy shit, Backlund attacks Valentine before the match and hits him with the belt. No holds barred! Bob is fucking Greg up. Smart work early when Greg misses a knee charge to the corner, Bob works the legs. Nothing wrong with that. Greg tries to fight back but Bob just kicks his leg and he drops. Bob even goes for a figure-4 but Greg pulls him down and turns the tide. Even after turning the tide, Greg still selling the leg. As of this moment, not really a No Holds Barred match even though it was teased as such early on. Really smart match but not extremely violent. Just as I say that, Greg gets to wrap Bob's leg around the ringpost several times. Bob escapes the figure-4 a couple of times but Greg finally gets it on and I am liking the leg work in the match. Eventually, Bob catches Greg with his deadlift German for the pin. Not a great No Holds Barred match but a great wrestling match. I have to check Cawthon's site and see if this was a regular match or No DQ. If it was no holds barred, merely solid. If it was just a match, this was really an easy nomination. Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (MSG 6/16/84) My favorite part was Greg just killing Tito in the corner with every move in his arsenal. I didn't think it had the really nasty moment to be called an all time great but I have no objection with this moving forward. So far, between this feud and Piper-Orndorff, I don't know which is my favorite feud discovery. Solid Nomination. Hulk Hogan vs. Greg Valentine (MSG 7/23/84) The actual date on this is 7/23/84. Valentine and Hogan are interviewed pre-match. Valentine cuts a normal promo but Hulk says something about calling the electric company in NYC to turn the power off because the Hulkamaniacs will be making the city explode or something. This was pretty good. Valentine went after Hulk immediately following the ring announcements. Hulk fought back and threw some awesome punches and whipped Valentine into the turnbuckle aggressively who bumped great for it. Hulk got on a side head lock but got back suplexed and The Hammer pounded on him for a few minutes with some stiff clubs. This heat segment didn't do anything for me. They went to the floor and brawled so the match slowly got better. Hulk reversed a suplex attempt into his own and followed that up with a shoulder breaker and a fucking brutal big boot that connected with Valentine's face. Valentine found an opportunity to work on Hulk's leg after a Hogan mistake and worked on it briefly. He attempted the figure four but Hulk countered on both tries. There was a pretty good sleeper spot with Hulk fighting out of it. Valentine made his second heat segment more varied and compelling than the first. The Hammer went for a move from the top rope but caught a huge clothesline that looked sick from the camera angle. Hulk executed the leg drop in a bizarre but actually cool way to grab the win. There were parts in this that didn't sit well with me but there was some great brawling and fun spots. I could see this on a set and someone else possibly liking this more. Greg Valentine vs. Jose Luis Rivera (MSG 9/22/84) EXPOSER: The actual date on this is 9/22/84. Wow, this was good. Rivera went after Valentine before The Hammer could even get his robe off. He sent Valentine to the floor who was eventually able to take his robe off. Valentine came back in and took control. He worked on Rivera's midsection and did a lot of cool stuff. He gave him a gut buster, vertical suplex on to the top rope, stood on his stomach, stomped him really hard, and really pounded on him for a good while. Also, he gave him a shoulder breaker and did a really painful looking wrist lock hold. Rivera kept fighting back in the corner with some nice punches and got in a few body slams. In his last effort to come back he and The Hammer got into this really intense fist fight in the corner which ruled. Valentine won the fight and gave him a snap under hook suplex then applied the figure four for the win. He re-applied it after the match and other wrestlers came to the aid of Rivera after The Hammer left. I really enjoyed this and thought it was a very good JTTS match. Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (MSG 10/22/84) This was fucking awesome. If I were to compare this to the Regal-Larry Z feud, this was equivalent to the Pro match. Non-stop violent sprint with Tito busting Greg open and giving some VIOLENT, SICK forearms to Greg's nose. The DQ does not bother me at all because the ending was so violent. EASY NOMINATION Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (Boston 1/5/85) DYLAN WACO: Tremendously great match, to the point where I could see this as someones number one. Tito is just so great at these sort of hard hitting, hate filled fights and that is also Valentine's bread and butter. Still this was on a whole nother level. Both guys were just crushing each other with forearms, punches, et all match. Greg's leg work was simple for the most part, but extremely effective. The spot with him going for a cover and laying all of his weight on Tito's leg was fucking awesome. Tito hit one great flying forearm early on which Greg was able to survive. This match has such a great ebb and flow and both guys were selling the fuck out of exhaustion/getting their asses kicked, but in a way that allowed them to come up for big spots. Devon is right about the Valentine headbutt. Totally vicious shot that looked like it killed Tito. The finish was also really great as there were several awesome bumps in this, but Valentine's tumble to the floor was the best and totally believable as a knockout blow, with the countout really well milked for maximum effect. This is no worse than a top ten match. Probably top five. Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana (Lumberjack Match) (MSG 3/17/85) The fucking Valentine forearms were sick. Tito's punches looked great. My favorite part was when they would just beat the shit out of each other in the slugfest portion. The lumberjacks served their purpose but this would have been every bit as good without them. I had to rewind the finish a couple of times before I realized they were both knocked out. Yeah, this ruled. EASY NOMINATION Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine (Cage Match) (Baltimore 7/6/85) Great match, my favorite between the two so far. Stiff, violent and using the cage the way you should in an escape the cage rules match. I was telling Phil I love the way they just crumple to the ground with a leg dangling up in the air or half twisted when they land because it feels more real than he choreographed typical getting crotched on the rope or flat back bumps you see nowadays in nearly every cage match. Each time someone tried to escape the cage, it felt like the right way to stop the escape... Tito's palm strike to Greg's face, Tito holding on to Greg's tights for dear life, Greg punching the shit out of Tito. Add the blood (although there aren't any great camera angles of the blood), the awesome finish and Greg losing his shit in the post-match and this might be the best cage match the WWF produced in the 80s. EASIEST OF NOMINATIONS Greg Valentine v. Dick Slater (1/3/87) DYLAN WACO: Cool match that really locked me in in the last few minutes. Lots of neat stuff, but I was very impressed by Slater. I liked his jab, footrake, and jumping headbutt over the ref as much or more than anything Valentine did and that is high praise. Slater fighting off the figure-four was really well done as also. This was an escalating match that started off solid and by the time it was over it felt like you had watched something really good. Greg Valentine v. Blue Blazer (4/22/89) DYLAN WACO: I thought this was pretty great and safely the best thing I've watched so far tonight. Valentine is crazy underrated and Owen is Owen so I knew this had a chance but this overacheived. The opening armwork was fun but this didn't get super good until Owen took his speedy bump to the floor. From there they just work a great run of stuff centered around whether or not Owen can survive Hammer's clubbing style and whether or not Valentine can survive Owen's big offense. Loved the spot with Owen hitting a desperation second rope dropkick out of the corner and Valentine doing his delayed face plant bump. I also thought it was cool how Greg hung onto a bodyslam attempt and seemed to turn it into a backbreaker on a whim. The stuff with three escapes of the figure four was great and Owen's run of big offense all looked good leading up to the cool finish with him going to the well one too many times and Valentine laying on an awesome looking cover after the slam for the finish. Greg Valentine v. Ronnie Garvin (10/8/89) DYLAN WACO: One or two odd spots but other than that this was pretty god damned solid slugfest wrestling. Everytime you thought it met settle in a bit Ronnie who just fucking kill Greg with what looked (and sounded) like full force punches right to the face. I know some people don't like the Heartbreaker gimmick but I love it and thought the finish was a clever way of giving the fans a clean finish without making the face look weak. Typically awesome fight between two of the best "feels like a real fight" guys ever.

I am not disputing your point but adding an addendum with Dusty Rhodes as the perfect foil for Flair when they went national. Flair and Dusty were 1A and 1B when Crockett went national. Lakers vs. Celtics, City vs. Country, High Class vs. Working Class. You can't undersell the impact of the two as a package.

When we did the ECW set, these are the matches we threw on. If I made comments on the match, I'll show the comments. If we threw it on because of the Smarkschoice poll, I'll note that... Shane Douglas vs. Jerry Lynn (3/6/98) - Damn, Jerry starts off his shine viciously going to the outside, cracking a chair on Douglas and diving from the stage. Douglas tries to fight back but Jerry keeps countering. Douglas turns the tide with a crotch on the rail and then a crotch on the ringpost leading to Jerry going through a table. Nice back and forth and Douglas is really eating Lynn’s offense. Super hot stretch run with Shane’s belly to belly getting the pin. Similar in structure to the Mikey match with the same result. However, both were really good matches and I have no problem with both being featured on the set. Mikey Whipwreck vs. Jerry Lynn (8/20/98) - I am not really up on ECW TV so I am guessing this is face vs. face. Nice hot beginning capped off with Jerry going crazy in the corner and hitting a high kick to Mikey’s face. Of course, MMikey works well when getting his ass kicked but has enough credible offense to take control as well. Jerry hooking in a sharpshooter seemed off but it was quickly broken up after Mikey hit the ropes. The outside dive by Mikey was not impressive but it gave him an excuse to put it away in the ring. Wow, I thought the suplex exchange towards the end was pretty sweet and the ending had to get put on rewind to see exactly what happened. I back the solid nomination and I see this making the set. Rob Van Dam vs. Jerry Lynn (2/11/99) - God, I hate Fonzie. The main thing I’ll be critical of here is the stalling. Very little stalling early on… all action. So far, everything is hitting on point too and no sloppiness. I wonder if they can keep it up. Fonzie helped with the Van Daminator outside so I’ll give him that. Inside, RVD, abuses Lynn with ease. I don’t know if this is a carbon copy of the rest of their series but I know this is better than one of the famous ones where they stalled the entire time. Van Dam screws up, lands on a guardrail and Lynn capitalizes. Good stuff. After Lynn blocks a Van Daminator, awesome sequence where he does a leg drop and drives RVD’s head into the chair. Then to have the end build to who will get popped first (and RVD bleeds no less). Seriously, this may be the best Lynn-RVD match I have seen. No stalling… each step logically followed based on both guys’ mistakes and taking advantage of them. I don’t see how this is not on the set. The only thing that bugged me was the Malenko roll up sequence that seemed out of nowhere. Now if we can get Fonzie to shut the fuck up we’ll be in good shape. Strong nomination. Jerry Lynn vs. Mikey Whipwreck (10/3/98) - Man, these guys came out with some gusto. Some cool things early on but the coolest was the tilt-a-rana that DROPS Mikey on his head. Some matches are hampered by going to the outside. I think this match was actually helped since there were some stiff shots that brought up the intensity of the match. Big finish with a ton of finishers blocked. I want to move this forward but we’ll have to se ehow many times this matchup pops up on the set. Jerry Lynn vs. Rob Van Dam (Living Dangerously 3/15/99) (Smarkschoice Pick) Jerry Lynn v. Taka Michinoku (4/24/99) - Feeling out period leads to Lynn on the outside and Taka doing his amazing leap into nowhere. Jerry gets control and just throws caution into the wind crotching Taka on the rail, dropkicking him off the rail and leaping on him from the apron. Badass. Inside the ring, Jerry works on Taka’s injured leg. TAKA tries to mount a comeback but Lynn has inflicted too much damage so he can never get a lef up. He finally nails a rana and brainbuster to gain control but Jerry moves out of a moonsault attempt and Jerry is back in control. Really super hot stretch run leading to the cradle piledriver and a surefire nomination. Justin Credible v. Jerry Lynn Low End Nomination (4/30/99) - Damn, Lynn is coming out on fire kicking the hell out of Credible and tossing him out of the ring. If nothing else, Credible is bumping big for Lynn early on. Seriously, as long as Lynn is on offense, this match is hot. Damn, I know he ripped of the superkick form his clique buddies but didn’t know he dropped a Razor’s Edge too. I kept waiting for Credible to make this match suck but it hasn’t happened so far. Good payoff on a table spot where they set it up but Lynn escapes and after 5minutes or so, Lynn hip tosses Credible on the table to make Credible pay for setting it up in the 1st place. Good stuff. Didn’t like the ending with the interference but I thought the match was hot and it didn’t effect the ending. Easy nomination and I say that as someone who does not like Credible at all. The only way I can see this one not on the set is if they already have a MOTYC type match somewhere else already represented. Jerry Lynn vs. Rob Van Dam (Hardcore Heaven 5/16/99) (Smarkschoice Pick) Jerry Lynn v. Tajiri (10/23/99) - Tajiri kicking the taped ribs makes me feel good. I love how Jerry sells the ribs after the tarantula. Too bad when Jerry was in the tree of woe that Tajiri didn’t dropkick the ribs instead of Jerry’s face. However, you could tell Tajiri was more interested in torturing Lynn than he was in using a sound strategy to win the match. Nice stretch run after Lynn turned the tide and choked Tajiri with his own belt. Add Jerry’s blood and Tajiri going back to the ribs to take control and of course I back this nomination and Tajiri continues to amaze. The red mist into head kick into brainbuster finisher combo was AWESOME. Another HUGE recommendation. Stone cold lock. Steve Corino vs. Jerry Lynn (Heat Wave 7/16/00) (Smarkschoice Pick)

Jerry, what does this mean?

I was reading the Rey Mysterio thread in the Microscope and saw the results of the Smarkschoice poll. Who knew that Bix had it right all along? Also, Kevin, I am working on the super duper mega Lawler set. And the Bret Hart jokes never get old... ever.