elliott

I'm thinking he leaves for WCW as soon as he could. The MSG curtain call still would have happened. So he still would have been punished. Trips got the good soldier push the next year as a make up for losing his KOTR slot. But if Shawn leaves (and this is all kind of presuming Vince soured on Michaels) on bad terms, Trips doesn't have a political ally and I doubt Bret would want to put over Shawn's leftover buddy. I imagine HHH's career would look like Owen's. Hot babyface due to the residual heat from Vince screwing Shawn, but pretty quickly smacked back down until forming a team with Jeff Jarrett. HHH is a master politician, but that's a pretty tough landscape to navigate assuming Bret stays and wields influence. I imagine guys like Val Venis and Test faring as good or better than HHH in this universe. Shamrock also, but injuries always hurt him. If they decide to keep US vs Canada going with Bret, I imagine American Hero Mark Henry and Bret have a feud at some point that we all surely would have hated at the time but would all love now in hindsight. One thing we haven't really talked about is that when Bret signed the 20 year deal, he and Vince both agreed that after a few years, Bret would retire from the ring and move to a front office role. Assuming he stays relatively healthy since he doesn't have the Goldberg match that killed his brain, I think he would work probably through 2002 at the absolute latest. He definitely works with the Radicalz when they jump. And he definitely works the WWF vs WCW invasion as WWE's lead veteran. Basically the role Fred Blassie played but if Blassie could still work. If Shawn is still alive and presumably comes back with Hogan, Hall & Nash, I'd probably have Bret going over Shawn at Mania 19 or something. I think if Vince chose Bret over Shawn, the biggest beneficiary (other than the WWE, Bret, all of us and literally every single person ever except for Vince Russo, HHH and Shawn) would have been Chris Jericho. I assume Bret would have gone to bat for him politically and personally groomed him as a WWE main eventer. Canadian Pride basically. Since the idea of Bret staying creates a really difficult world for HHH to gain political power, Jericho wouldn't have someone higher on the food chain cutting him off repeatedly. I almost think a more interesting question is what if Shawn didn't get hurt and stuck around. Because really, WWE lost Bret and Shawn. Say what you will about Bret, but I think he is the type of guy that would have put over the next generation and been a real asset to the Attitude era. I can absolutely envision Bret Hart working with and putting over Rock, Foley, eventually Jericho, and Angle in a way that makes those guys look good. Bret would have been a real asset during this time period. Shawn had the potential to be a disaster.

At what point did HHH start getting "future headliner" talk? Serious question. Because I could definitely see him not being on the radar without Shawn, Hall, Nash.

I think What Happens With Foley is the most interesting question. Really WWF lost Bret & Shawn. Presuming Bret is sticking around, I would imagine he would be Vince's corporate champ. We basically get the corporate ministry stuff in 1998 only its the Hart Foundation. You still do Austin vs McMahon. What happens with the McMahon character is interesting because Montreal was such a big moment. I actually kinda think Vince should screw Shawn to keep that shit alive. But Foley? If Bret sticks around, he kinda naturally becomes Vince's corporate champ going against Austin. So we probably don't get the awesome Foley vs Austin brawls. Or, they take the place of Foley vs Rock and Rock is working Bret to keep the Austin vs Rock Mania Main event Alive. Edit Loss just asked a great question, what happens with HHH. I'm not exactly sure, but I was going to say in this Bret over Shawn Universe, Steph marries Owen.

What does Tyson's WM 14 involvement look like without HBK?

What's even more ridiculous is that the biggest showboat and grandstander on the fucking planet thinks being a showboat & grandstander is cause enough to be fired.

If only we had some Pepe Casas footage. Even if he was a terrible wrestler, his sons (Negro Casas, Heavy Metal, El Felino) are/were so great it almost doesn't even matter. Verne and Greg Gagne came to mind as well. Verne of course being a total legend and Greg is one of the most underrated wrestlers ever if you listen to the narrative surrounding him instead of actually watching the dude work.

Was there more than one Coward's Way Out match? Because Lawler vs Dream Machine. And I don't see it reviewed in the Lawler Complete & Accurate. Edit Also, that Hugo vs El Profe match mentioned above is fucking awesome.

If I had to summarize this match in two quick sentences I would say: These two tried to tell the history of Lucha Libre with this match. And they succeeded.

Thanks for listening yall! This was such a fun episode to record. My entire body hurt from laughing by the time we were done. I still can't move past the idea of Ken the Box blading and packing peanuts spilling out of his body/box/boxy?

updated below

Stacey's Kent Walton impression is amazing. Eat your heart out Johnny Sorrow!

Savage vs Steamboat makes absolutely perfect sense within the context of the feud. You have to watch the matches leading up to it. I still love this as an overall show. Always loved the opener. Man I have not watched this show in ages but now I really want to watch Savage work over Hogan's hair. That sounds amazing. Do people act like this is one of the worst? This is probably my favorite overall show. I'm glad the Rockers vs Faces of Fear match routinely gets love now when people talk about this show. I think that's a legit great tag match. I've always really liked Nasty Boys vs Hart Foundation and Bossman vs Perfect. Savage vs Warrior I think is a top 10 WWE match ever. I've always had a soft spot for Martel vs Jake. Tenryu appears on the show. Fuck I need to rewatch this whole show I think. This strikes me as the best Mania top to bottom. I have a completely irrational love of Piper vs Bret. Its not his best match obviously, but it is unquestionably my favorite Bret Hart match. Interesting that you think Macho vs Flair is their worst match against each other when I feel like the consensus would lean towards it being their best. I definitely think so. I haven't watched HBK/Tito in forever, but I'm not really a big fan of Michaels in 92, 93. Dude fuck yes. I recently rewatched this and it is truly awesome. I wouldn't put it #1 but it is on my short list.

Man. You were not kidding. The prematch is pure gold. I was laughing hysterically. The match...I really can't think of a worse Regal match. Maybe something from the Real Man's Man run? But I never would've guessed a 2010 Regal match could be so bad.

This Satanico vs Lizmark match magically appeared yesterday. This was quite the match for a lot of reasons. The first of which is Satanico. He is amazing in this. Classic facial expressions as always but he also does one of the best jobs selling the effect of a chinlock/sleeper better than anyone other than Benoit vs Guerrero from the 96 Super Juniors tournament. Lots of fun classic Satanico trickery as well. Love the subtle low blow he used as a kickout. The other reason this match was amazing is that I'm more convinced than ever that Lizmark fucking sucks. He just cannot have consistently good performances against Satanico who is probably the easiest guy in the history of wrestling to have a good match with other than maybe Flair or Funk. Lizmark has a tendency to dominate their matches and this wasn't really any different in that regard only his mat work looked particularly sloppy and loose in this. The first fall was not good and I get the impression Satanico realized that because he turned his shit up in the 2nd fall and used Lizmark's desire to slap on a hold and sit in it to bust out this classic selling of the chinlock. These two have had a lot of singles matches with each other over the years and you'd assume they would be a classic tecnico vs rudo matchup. They hit it out of the park once in I want to say 1993, but all their other matches I've found to be fairly disappointing in one way or another. This is definitely worth watching and is a great example of someone (Satanico) having a terrific individual performance in a match that wasn't all that great.

http://placetobenation.com/stacey-and-elliotts-bogus-journey-2-crimes-against-humanity/ Things get pretty dark pretty quick as Stacey and Elliott, two bystanders innocently looking for some wrestling end up witnessing multiple counts of attempted murder, a possible attempted sexual assault and some distribution of pornography…and then spend half an hour fantasy booking Kelly Kelly as Riki Choshu. You can decide which is the most egregious crime. Today’s matches: – Alexander Otsuka vs Mitsuhiro Matsunaga – BattlARTS 11/09/99 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zGN3msKTBc – Motor City Machine Guns vs Generation Me (Young Bucks) (Empty Arena Match) – TNA ReAction 11/18/10

A couple of things: The question is awkwardly worded and twitter isn't the place for substantive responses. So that doesn't help. Since the question was posed as a singular (which match) instead of plural (which matches), perhaps Dave just named the first one that came to mind. Given Dave's views on lucha (and matches in general), at least he named Atlantis vs VIllano III and didn't say "Something with Rey Jr and Juventud in 1996." What I'm curious about and I think would help shed light on it is if someone asked him (and he answered): 1. Are there other lucha matches you consider 5 stars? 2. In Japanese Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars? 3. In American Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars? 4. In British Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars? 5. In Women's Wrestling, which match do you consider 5 stars?\ How he answered those specific questions would help shed some light on why he answered the original one the way he did. If that has happened already, sorry I'm not on twitter. I get where Grimmas is coming from. This is all mostly because of who Dave is and what he represents on a grander scale than just being some guy Grimmas disagrees with about match quality. It sucks that Dave isn't a bigger fan of lucha. Or as Matt said earlier, it kinda sucks that even while liking lucha, Dave "missed the mark on about half of the things that made lucha great." I also think Loss' post here is fantastic http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/36262-why-does-puro-get-so-much-love-why-does-lucha-get-so-dismissed/?p=5791441 And shouldn't the real question be "In Mexican wrestling, which match do you consider a 6 stars?" Or have we all moved past that? Its still funny damnit!

This exactly. If you have a problem with his answer, I'd like to know which lucha matches you consider to be surefire 5 star affairs. Because I don't know more than one either. Easily, UG-Atlantis Atlantis-V3 MS-1-Sangre Chicana Dandy-Azteca Dandy-Satanico and my viewing is super limited, there is a ton more I've heard others praise. Working on my ridiculous 5 star matches project, I have 40 lucha matches rated 5 stars from 1983-2001.

Ricky Steamboat in the Low Ki vs Danielson match from 7/01 is the best. You notice him, but his presence gives the match a certain gravitas you don't normally get on indy shows at the time and a sort of instant validation of the greatness of the match and the two wrestlers. Ricky Steamboat standing right there watching someone get chopped and reacting to how hard the chop is fucking rules. Or circling around both guys selling after a near fall holding up two fingers with one hand and holding his other out as if to tell the fans "these two are incredible and deserve your applause and adoration." You can't help but notice Steamboat in that match and he's terrific. The ref for Funk vs Onita is great just for his outfit. Thats all I got. Really cool topic. I'm looking forward to the responses and the eventual podcast.

There are a bunch of performances that come to mind especially when you look at the 5 star matches thread and MOTD thread. But I wanted to mention two matches that I always seem to bring up and I'm probably higher on than just about anyone. 1. Invader I vs Ron Starr 09/19/86 WWC - From the chairshot by the valet on, this is my single favorite performance I've ever seen. Invader I's stumbling, weeble-wobble, desperate to make a comeback selling is completely entrancing. It all starts with, in all honesty, one of the weakest chairshots I've ever seen which ends up making the performance even more impressive because he manages to convince the viewer that it was this devastating blow from which he couldn't recover. I can't even properly rate the match or analyze it structurally or whatever. Ron Starr has been one of the biggest discoveries for me watching 80s sets and I will often search for his matches now. But I don't even see him when I watch this match with Invader. Best sell job in the history of wrestling easily. 2. El Satanico in the 09/23/01 Infierno en el Ring with Averno, Mephisto, Tarzan Boy, Rey Bucanero, Ultimo Guerrero & Mascara Magica. I know I'm a broken record on Satanico at this point. But this is a major match that could in theory have gone really poorly (7 dudes 3 on 4 in an escape the cage match) and it turned out to be an all time classic with the 50+ year old dude, who was probably 20+years older than everyone else in the match, not only being the focus of the match, but the obvious standout performer. He literally kept the whole thing tied together from start to finish both offensively and defensively. Those are my two, but I could probably add "Every match Kazunari Murakami had from 2000-2001."

We've got all sorts of threads related to "great matches." We've got the Match of the Decade and Match of the Year Threads, the 5 Star thread, threads covering the 80s, 90s, 00s, specific regions etc etc. But in GWE, we often talked about how "great performances" were more important than "great matches." So figure we need the "great performances" thread as well. With that said, what are some of your favorite or what do you think are some of the the best individual performances in matches? Additionally, what are some of the matches yall think of when you think of "great performances in not-great matches?"

I'll rewatch this again soon as well. That's a big rating. Here's what I wrote about it last year in the Tamura Complete and Accurate:

I agree 100%. Please keep that stuff away from here. Third.

LOVED THE SHOW! Fuck yeah. These are gonna be great. What a splendidly weird pick for a first match!

Just saw this! Thanks so much for listening. Its been a blast doing these shows with Stacey. Easiest person ever to talk to. And we've already deviated from our original concept. We're dropping the 3rd mystery match idea just to keep show length reasonable.