Clayton Jones

I'd like to hear more about what makes Kudo's performance great in the Kong match. I really enjoy that match, but I remember it more as a great Aja showing. I'll fully admit that most of my familiarity with Kudo is from her deathmatch run so I was assuming she was a big time outsider underdog when watching that match previously. Maybe I misunderstood her role or perception with the crowd, but if that's not too far off the mark I think Kudo takes way too much and had me actively rooting for Aja's whirling dervish of death by the end. Also I remember quite a few execution problems from Kudo, which I know is part of the territory with joshi, but there's a point for me where it goes beyond accepting it with the style into actively taking away from the match.

While on the topic of pre-2010 Tanahashi I feel compelled to make sure people are keeping in mind his AJPW match VS Honma from July of 2004. There were also some very good matches VS Giant Bernard somewhere along the way.

Also i wanted to add a counterpoint to this year old post in case anyone had used it as a starting off point for Generico's indy career. I dislike the work both Generico and Claudio did in that tournament. It felt like they were doing what they thought would best get over in front of ROH's audience instead of what they did best as workers. This can be said of much of Claudio's ROH run but that's another conversation. I think the match they had in the finals is more of a collection of spots and an overblown finishing run than anything else. On the topic of diversity, compare it to their PWG title match where Claudio mercilessly goes after Generico's leg for the majority of it and the big spots feel that much bigger because of how sound the psychology is.

Three matches come to mind from his indy career aside from the brawling stuff already covered. And as for NXT, I think in the Neville and Owens feuds there's a good amount of variety, but that stuff is more accessible. VS Hero - ROH Glory By Honor VI. This is much more of an early in the card, pure babyface VS heels kind of match. Not so much focused around popping the crowd as it is making them have a rooting interest. Great performances from Hero and the Sweet N Sour stable as well. I remember at the time feeling like this match was pretty refreshing as far as ROH goes. w/Steen VS Quackenbush/Jigsaw - ROH Domination. Great fundamental tag wrestling in this one. Both teams are fairly fresh to the ROH crowd but they hook them big time. Once again everyone involved delivers here but the Steen/Generico tag team works mainly because of the sympathy that Generico brings. VS Danielson - PWG Giant Sized Annual #4. Impromptu title defense after both guys have wrestled previously, Danielson against Necro and Generico in a tag title match. The set up adds a lot of drama coming in and both wrestlers build on that emotion tremendously throughout the match. Still a fairly big move style, but due to the fact both wrestlers are beat up coming in it's more focused and heated. One thing that's consistent with just about any match I've seen in Generico/Zayn's career is that he works an uptempo style no matter if the structure is different, but that also is part of who his character is.

I don't know what a Manzerman fan is but I mostly meant how white people typically hero worship Japanese culture. Puro fans in general are guilty of it often, if you look to other forms of media you'll see it in abundance too, but in joshi it always seemed to reach a new level. It's this whole dynamic of "I'm not a wrestling fan, I'm a JOSHI fan" that would drive me nuts. For the longest time it made me look at joshi as a lesser form of pro wrestling, and then tropes like the screaming and the rough around the edges nature of joshi helped me reinforce that idea that it wasn't "real wrestling." But somehow, understanding better that this started of as essentially an extension of jpop for tweens but somehow became the platform for your Aja Kongs, Meiko Satomuras, Akira Hokutas, etc makes me that much more fascinated by it. Basically they could have gone out there and done just about anything with big personalities and theatrics and it would have gone over, but instead they respected the craft and told stories and took ridiculous amounts of physical punishment.

As someone who has always struggled to appreciate Joshi unless it was Kong or Satomura up until just recently, I stumbled onto this post tonight and found it extremely insightful. I think a lot of Japanese wrestling fans probably avoided Joshi for the longest time for similar reasons I did- the fans seemed like obsessive creeps and you wanted nothing to do with anything they liked. But as I get older and branch out more I find myself wanting to understand the super praised Joshi eras, and stuff like this really helps provide the framework to better digest it. Loss if you ever want to pick up where you left off a year ago I'd be happy to read more.

Outside a few exceptions, Hansen in AWA was a disappointment to me in a way that I don't think Terry could ever be in a major run in any territory. Otherwise career VS career it would be difficult, but the lack of high end matches from Hansen in AWA makes me lean towards Terry,

The replay stream on my Roku hiccuped a handful of times and went back about 4 seconds, and for two of the matches (Rusev/Swagger and the main event) skipped ahead a few seconds and missed the finish.

I've heard this Harley story multiple times, and it's one of my favorite pro wrestling tales of bad assery. http://www.steeldomainwrestling.com/news_article/show/175171?referral=rss

I've always felt that a big part of ECW's problem was Heyman's propensity to bring in outside talent or bring back guys that probably cost him a ton, seemed like a big deal from the outside, but likely did very little to increase business. Sid always stuck out like a sore thumb in this regard, as well as bringing back Raven and Sandman. A great example of a talent that ECW could have used 10 more of was Corino, a young guy who was hungry, knew how to work their audience, probably worked cheap, and helped get everyone over around him. If Heyman had focused more on building talent like that after he was at the point it was inevitable his roster was going to get raided on a regular basis, would ECW have not bled such huge losses? Or would that have been just a drop in the bucket and a step closer to become a glorified ROH as mentioned?

Having done 4 sets I would say the most important thing is to not let the entire ranking process build up until towards the end. Keeping a working ballot of some sort, whether it be an excel sheet, different tiers of matches, or by year as you go, whatever it may be, will make a huge difference when you're fine tuning your final ballot. I always try to make a note for matches that I don't feel like I got the full experience from the first time around and would benefit from a rewatch as I go as well. And as others have said, trust your instincts. On the earlier sets I feel like I was a bit too concerned with what the general consensus was, and less likely to be an outlier for a personal favorite. But the divergent opinions are what make the end results so much fun, so if you happen to love a match that most people think should be towards the bottom, hell, put that sucker #5 if you want. To thine own self be true.

I love me some Necro but one of the things to really take away from this post is how far Rob Naylor has come from 2008 to now.

Agreed all around. The Flair stuff made him seem like a mark even when I was a teenager. I like Douglas quite a bit but reiterating the above points about how he ranks as a total package, I think Austin & Joey Styles said it best on one of the episodes of his podcast. I forget which one made the point, but basically when Douglas came up, the evaluation was in the ring he is a natural babyface, and on the mic and as a personality he is a natural heel, and if he could ever match his ability on either side with the other he'd be an all-time great.

No matter what his historical significance is or what level star he was, Akiyama is a personal favorite to watch. He has consistently gotten some of the most interesting matches from his opponents and as a veteran elevated younger talent. I absolutely love his mentor/tough love relationship with Hashi that he invested so much of himself into, the match with Shibata, the G1 Climax finals with Tenzan (and man do I hate Tenzan). His work in AJPW the past few years is the only reason I've given a crap about that promotion. I like how he pairs with the four corners in singles matches better than any pairing aside from Misawa/Kawada or maybe as a darkhorse Kawada/Taue. He is the X factor in tag work with those guys that brings the extra level of drama. It wasn't always the case for me but when all is said and done I'd have a hard time putting him outside of my top 10.

Just seeing this for the first time, and one back to back ranking that really sticks out like a sore thumb to me is Verne over the Rock. Maybe the bias of Verne being the top draw in his own sandbox is making me underrate his historic significance, but he seems a bit higher than I'd expect in general. What's the consensus around here?

By the time that match happened maybe MMA was becoming a normal term to use, but only a few years prior to that when discussing UFC/Pancrase the only terms I ever heard anyone use were either "ultimate fighting" or "shootfighting." Of course this was primarily on the Prodigy wrestling boards but at least in that community, shootfighting was a very common term.

It's also a stupid comparison because pro sports don't have instant replay across the board for every possible blown call. The majority of missed calls mirror pro wrestling logic- "the ref can't be everywhere at once" aka "he didn't see it, it didn't happen."

So is Zumhofe being charged with sexual assault on his daughter as well as another underage girl?

Agreed. Solid match for what they were trying to do, especially considering it was Big Benjamin Johnson's debut.

The thing that's particularly weird to me about this, and I could be mistaken on the details as it's been a while, but I seem to remember Nigel mentioning in multiple interviews how he was wrestling a more American style when he first came over, and Regal saw him on a show and told him to start wrestling like he was British if he expected to stand out. And it always struck me odd when Nigel would bring that up, because he obviously eventually came to the conclusion that minimizing his British style once again was the key to success. I mean if you're going to listen to any of the people that have given you advice over the years, I'd think Regal would be about the best candidate possible.

The Nigel using steroids stuff interests me because it's not something I've ever read about before. Is this based on heard from someone who heard from someone type knowledge, or just an educated guess based on his injuries and subsequent change of physique, or a combination of both? I know bicep tears are typical of steroid abuse but I never made that connection just because of how excessive Nigel's use and delivery of the lariats became. I can't say I'd ever describe his physique as "juiced to the gills," and I always assumed his leaner look later on was due to changing his training to compensate for the injuries. In regards to Gabe's responsibility in Nigel's downfall, it's tough for me to agree conclusively that Nigel would not have gotten pushed as a main eventer without switching to the drastically different style. I think he was well on the way to being one of the top guys in ROH due to the Pure title run, and Gabe did put him over Joe (twice IIRC) to establish him with the belt. And Nigel was doing terrific with the way his character developed, finding the right balance for the British stuff but keeping the fans engaged, his mic work, and then the feud with Danielson which already had main evented at least one show previous to the UK match. Of course from that point on it's really hard to say where Nigel's career would have gone because he went and did that fucking idiotic, terrible looking, life shortening head posting spot and his star did continue to rise. But isn't there a good chance that if Nigel doesn't make that insanely awful decision and Danielson and he just delivered the great intelligent match they were already capable of, combined with the special factor of the UK crowd behind them, that Nigel still would have turned into the #1 guy in ROH? I'm of the same opinion of most here, that I was a big fan of McGuinness leading up to that match, but slowly soured on his style as it progressed from there. I was still a fan but couldn't stand the UK match from the beginning, and really thought the Driven match with the repeated headbutts was too much "stuff for the sake of stuff" with the unnecessary violence to top it off. Then into the McLariat phase, I liked a lot of his matches but I would have liked them just as well if he didn't do so many damn lariats. I understand why Nigel continuously changed his style but I think he was really on the right path during the Pure title run and it's sad that he was so desperate to keep getting more and more of a response that he lost sight of what was best for his career. I do think he is one of the lost great wrestlers of his generation, but I also agree that he doesn't have anyone else to blame for it.

The Armstrong match from 2/10/85 is another good one although the Taylor match is probably the best example of technical DiBiase on the set.

Sets I exempted myself from: Other Japan, Memphis, All Japan OJ and Memphis were just a styles preference. Outside of BattlArts shootstyle has never been a favorite of mine, and I think the reason I've always enjoyed BattlArts is it has more roots based in pro wrestling than its contemporaries. There were some novelty matches on the OJ set that appealed to me but even if that had sold me I didn't think I could give a fair analysis overall. I'll probably feel similarly about the Lucha set when that one happens but I think I'll be more willing to go outside of my comfort zone just for educational purposes there. Memphis, I know this is an unpopular opinion in our circles of the IWC, but Memphis isn't my thing. I like Jerry Lawler (as a wrestler), but don't love him. I am not crazy about Bill Dundee. I know this is blasphemy. But I've seen enough matches to know that this set wasn't for me. I would have been in it for Jimmy Hart, and the handful of matches from Bam Bam, Koko, the Poffos, but it wasn't enough for me to make the plunge. All Japan was a few factors. It was the set that I had seen the most of previously (maybe 20% of by a generous estimate, but that's still what... 30 some matches?). And NJPW was the only set that I had doubts if I could finish, and the AJPW set was just as long IIRC. I knew that it would be more of an endurance test than I could take on around that time period of my life, which was particularly busy. I'm sure I would have thoroughly enjoyed it had I participated, but my guess is it would have been the one set I didn't get a ballot submitted for so I don't regret skipping it. Keeping in mind I'm halfway through disc 7 of AWA, my ranking of the sets I have participated in: 1. Mid-South - It had everything I want out of wrestling. Great booking, great feuds, a mix of bloody heated brawls and good longer technical wrestling. Interesting talent always coming in to freshen things up. There was no era of this set I didn't enjoy or was a chore to get through whatsoever. I think Watts will go down as my favorite booker all-time as a result of this set. 2. Texas - Really not that far off from Mid-South in terms of the positives, but with less of a focus on technical side and more of a chaotic grab and bash your opponent style. Which is fine by me. Less of a variety of talent as well but I was a big Von Erichs fan coming in and that did not change coming out. The Sunshine, Garvin/Adams stuff was a complete revelation and among my favorite sections of the set. I was not a big fan of the Embry stuff later on, but still enjoyed some of the matches. 3. New Japan - If I was given the choice to watch my favorite 20 matches off this set or the Texas set, I'd probably pick this set most days. But on a whole, this one was a little hard for me to get through. I'm also in the camp that struggled with the Koshinaka matches and that era of the juniors in general. I honestly preferred the Tiger Mask era juniors matches, especially when Hamada was involved. Still I'm very glad I participated in this set, my opinions of Andre, Choshu, Fujiwara and Vader, which were positive coming in, skyrocketed after this. And guys I didn't know anything of previously, such as Kimura, Hoshino, Sakaguchi and Saito, I came out with a high opinion of. 4. AWA - It's early to say but from what I've heard about the last years being the worst for AWA, I'd be surprised if it doesn't stay in the last spot. This was the set I probably knew the least about coming in, from the roster to the style to the history. I knew Martel, Hansen, Jumbo and Slaughter had all been big names in AWA, so I highly anticipated the set and had no doubts I'd participate. When the match list went up I was a little surprised that these guys weren't as prominent as I expected. I went in with an open mind hoping to be as wowed by Blackwell, Bock, the High Flyers and company as others had been, but it hasn't really happened. I definitely have a high opinion of Blackwell at this point but wouldn't consider him in the upper echelon of wrestlers all-time. I know I have more of his matches to come though which I'm looking forward to. The Bock and High Flyers stuff has generally been fun, the set on a whole has been fun and not a struggle by any means. But there have been way more "yeah that was pretty good" rankings on my notes than anything else. The booking style and in-ring style are not among my favorites. Now that I'm getting into the Rose/Somers stuff though, my opinion in those regards has been shifting a bit. All things said the 80s sets have been great. I'm very impressed considering the investment of time and resources required that they have continued as strong as they have. As long as they keep going I'll still be participating on a regular basis, and there aren't many remaining territories that have been discussed that I think I would skip. Revisiting the WWF set is the only one that comes to mind, and I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Yeah the board being down is unfortunate timing because I keep having a backlog of like 5-8 matches to comment on when I happen to catch it up. And then I can't remember in detail what I wanted to say about half the matches, and then before I'm able to post it's back down again. I don't do individual disc rankings either (I see the appeal but it's a kind of arbitrary way to group the matches) and I don't keep notes as I go other than the DVDVR Too Short posts. But I've had a good amount of matches pegged for a rewatch anyway so this will just motivate me a bit more to actually follow through with that (and the motivation is always the hardest factor for me when it comes to the rewatch pile).

Butch was certainly great in Mid South, he was one of the best wrestlers in the history of the promotion.