El-P

If you believe stuff in shoot interviews, Micheal Hayes tried to piss on her too before punching JBL... Indeed. The Marty Jannetty interviews are so incriminating for Michaels (and himself of course). This is all about cognitive dissonance. But then again, there's just plain ignoring it and there's at least being aware of those cognitive dissonances and from there having a reflexion on us fans and what our place in this is when we keep on supporting people who are or have been total scumbags. Actually, it is, because being a fan means we give actual social power to these people, and that social and financial power is why they can act the way they do and suffer no consequence. It's too easy to just wash our hands off it. I agree and I actually mentioned Chioda coming off like a douchebag in my long-ass post a few pages ago. Agreed. I would make a comparison with how the entire legacy of the Tour de France for instance is totally flawed because of doping and you can't really talk about it nor its history without burying your head in the sand, because it was not just Lance Armstrong, the cycling system has been totally corrupt by doping for decades. So you have your bad guy standing as a scapegoat (of course Armstrong was a fraud and a despicable human being and deserves all the shit he got and more) and then you have all those "former champions" who were all pretty much involved in one way or another acting as TV commentators, trainers, team leaders and whatnot and journalist talking about the mythology of the sport and all those great champions of the past...

Not even hyped for Tanga Loa vs Great O-Khan ? Ok, it's unfair, Takagi vs Ishii will murder a bunch of MOTYCs.

Well good. Speaking of which, might as well : "We were all afraid in WWE" That's from 2004 to 2010. AFTER the plane ride from hell. The Divas era. John Laurinaitis at the helm. In another tweet she says how she has loved her last stint thanks to the talent, which has totally changed (ya know, those soy boy who play video game and don't carry a gun with them). But that the office needed to change.

Yes, I understand the process. But to me there's something sad about Terri Runnels telling her story and people go all up in arms about Dreamer... That's Twitter for ya. (I guess you can "blame" the documentarists for giving a platform to stupid opinions too, as they choosed to show that part of Dreamer's interview and he comes of like a complete idiot)

JR said something quite interesting about Flair being a "made man". The fact he used a term that comes from the Mafia is quite telling to me. Pro-wrestling comes from a kinda secret society background, where people speak carny and do the flat handshake. There is definitely (or was) a culture of silence to protect "the boys". You can find the same culture in the military for instance (in France the army is called "The Big Mute").

The comparison was not between Flair & Lesnar, it was between Dreamer & Lesnar. That's what my post was about. I did not even mention Flair. How this that even remotely a bad thing ?!!! The Ashley Massaro story certainly is that would need to be shed some light on.

As a 31 years old fan, I ask myself that question too, very regularly when real bad shit pop up. But like I said, it's not inherent to pro-wrestling. You think things are better in Hollywood ? In the music industry ? In the TV industry ? In sports ? In politics ? Think again. I mean, this world is a failure, honestly.

You really think I meant that *literally* ? The incident was about Flair indeed, but Lesnar was namely accused of sexual assault too in that documentary. So there.

The fact remains that we don't hear much outraged outrage about Lesnar. Gotta love the idea that things got *so much* better afterward, you know, when Randy Orton was being charming with all the Divas.... Also, fake-outrage about Meltzer when he inevitably says something in an awkward way about Flair that will get the usual cookie-points getter crowd all excited in 5... 4... 3... (come on, you know this is happening sooner than later).

As far as Tommy Dreamer being suspended for saying real stupid shit on a documentary... I dunno. This is where things get tricky to me. Especially when all those people really outraged by Dreamer for just saying some stupid shit don't seem to react nearly as much about Brock Lesnar actually flashing his dick to Terri Runnels. Gotta get that Mania main event.

It was sexual assault. There's also a (slight) difference between flashing "the boys" in the locker room (and by "the boys" I do mean the guys, not the female workers although Terri Runnels and others have stated they have seen way too much of Flair's dick, but then again, why is no one talking about Brock Lesnar again and that the focus gets more on Tommy Dreamer for just saying real stupid shit ?) to get a good laugh (although I don't see what's funny about it and I'm not even a prude at all) and flashing "civilians", as they say.

Considering Andrade had plans working against Alberto at some points, I'm not sure I'd feel that bad for him...

I may have expressed myself poorly. What I meant is : "Just let it rest with putting Ric Flair on TV". I'm gonna edit the post to avoid any misunderstanding. Totally agree about this kind of behavior needing to be nuked no matter who it is. Also forgot to mention the irony of Coach Tony K. starting the Sleaze Thread. He should know what to (not) do, really.

Boy.... there is so much to say about this one I have no idea where to start. First of all, there is nothing here that *we*, the hardcore pro-wrestling geeks, did not know about. We heard it countless and countless times in various crappy RF shoot interviews and Kayfabe Commentaries Youshoot DVDs. Which is actually makes it so fascinating that it apparently resonates in bizarre fashion in 2021. I'm gonna say this : if you're a long-time, more than casual pro-wrestling fan and you're acting offended and outraged about Ric Flair on Twitter now, GO FUCK YOURSELF. Because *everybody knew* this shit for ever. Also, if you're a long-time, more than casual pro-wrestling fan and you're acting offended and outraged about Ric Flair on Twitter now but don't have shit to say about Brock Lesnar, GO FUCK YOURSELF WITH A RUSTY SCREWDRIVER. Didn't Terri Runnels re-told that story during #SpeakingOut ? Where is the outrage for Brock Lesnar who sexually assaulted (yeah, exposing yourself is a sexual assault) Terri Runnels ? I mean, Flair is a 70 years old guy who's career has been done for about 15 years, Brock is your WWE fixture as far as Big Show Match goes, but apparently the prospect of Lesnar vs Reigns is just too sweet to say anything about that guy. I like Tommy Dreamer and all, and really at first I wasn't really offended by his stance about Flair. He's a guy who's been brought up in the ECW locker room, you know, where guys exchanged syringes of their own blood to share drugs (as told by Francine), so I get where he is coming from in term of putting things in his own screwed up context. But at the end of the show, I facepalmed the fuck out of myself as he went straight into victim shaming. For fuck's sake Dreamer, did Raven DDTed once too many time on your head ? I mean, I get it, he's an old guy and all and sadly that's the kind of thing you hear all the time. And he also defended WWE going to Saudi Arabia, so there, nothing new about saying stupid shit to defend Da Business. As far as Scott Hall goes, I believe 100% he has no recognition whatsoever of what happened. I've spent almost 10 years with a women who had "alcoholic issues", to put it mildly, so I know how these thing goes, the regular black outs and partial/total loss of memory. Not that it excuses his behaviour, but it makes sense he has no recollection of it. Yeah, this is one of the most telling thing about this documentary. And really now, let's scroll back to Sunny and the infamous "shit sandwich" and "piss and shit in the slop bucket" stuff. But it's Sunny, right, so it doesn't matter, she was a bitch to Candido (but oh well all those guys who fucked around during the trips are A-OK of course, because it's not the same thing). Terri always struck me as a smart, personable and kind human being in interviews that I saw of her, and I'm glad she was able to appear on this doc (still looks awesome too). Speaking of the family, at least Dustin came off the "better" of the bunch, only embarrassing himself (and Terri, sadly) but apparently trying to help that poor flying attendant who was only trying to do her job. And yeah, I'm glad that once again, Dark Side gives a voice and a face to the victim. This is as much as her story as anything else, which was both cool to see and needed. I thought she came off really good and again it's pretty telling of an entire social system that her own company basically told her to "no-sell it", like the wrestling culture would tell Terri (and other women). Justin Credible looked rough but came off as a nice guy (always heard he was one in those shoot interviews too). Mike Chioda came off like a douchebag. Isn't he an anti-Meltz Twitter idiot too ? RVD was quite interesting, almost like an "outside observer". The one thing that hit me like a ton of brick is that he basically told in no uncertain term that back in the days, it was a common practice for "the boys" to basically.... drug rape groupies. Again, not something we don't know about and haven't heard countless times in old shoot interview, but to hear it in an actual documentary is something else. And people are pissed the most about Dreamer and Flair, really ? To me that's the most striking quote of the entire thing (along with Terri's). What about his crazy shit ? Never heard anything. Like, orgies with his "may have been an escort/stripper" girlfriend ? Well, anything that happens between consenting adults is fine with me. And now there's the question about Flair. And really, about us pro-wrestling fans and our many cognitive dissonances. As a pro-wrestling fan, sure I'd love to see Flair show up in AEW, if only for a shot or two, because it would be pretty cool. Also as a pro-wrestling fan, if we want AEW to be *different* from what pro-wrestling used to be, it would probably be wiser not to bring Ric Flair at all. It's not like he's needed or anything. If they bring him in, well, AEW is not that different from any other pro-wrestling promotion, but then again, it's not just about pro-wrestling but an entire social system of domination. That's what it's about. I remember that quote from Meltz when he talked about how people would look at the territories with rose colored glass : "If you don't have underage girls giving blowjobs in the locker room, this ain't the territories." And he's right. People can get outraged (or fake outrage because that's what is socially the norm) as much as they want, but a lot of the people from the past that are still being put on a pedestal today did some really awful shit. That's whom the legacy of pro-wrestling (but not just pro-wrestling) has been built on. So what do we do with these people now ? What do we do with that inheritance ? The very least we can do is at least exchange about it and make sure, as much as we can, that most of this stuff won't happen again by not supporting those who have done it before and may still do it today. Then again, we aren't judges, Twitter surely isn't a court of law and we live in cognitive dissonance *everyday* about *many* things. Those who ask for "purity" are usually the most hypocritical of all, not to mention there's no such thing as purity, in anything. Still, when stuff like this gets exposed, it all comes down to what kind of praxis, to use a fancy word, you want to engage into. Obviously, we all knew Ric Flair has been doing this shit for ever. Maybe it's time to remember Flair as the great pro-wrestler than he was if we want to, but cease to give the guy a platform for him to receive public adulation and money (which equals social and economical capital, which equals to a dominating position). Just maybe. I'm looking forward to every episode of this part 2. And I really hope we get a Jerry Lawler episode one day (you know why). Because, really now...

The one thing that strikes me this week as we got the first infamous post All Out weekly show (which got the ratings that we know), apart from the definite WCW 1996 feel of "holy shit, everybody could show up now", is the almost dream state, surrealistic quality of the whole thing. Four years ago, there was no opposition to WWE. And now, there's this weekly TV show that we almost already take for granted (not me), that has CM Punk and Bryan Danielson, and those guys from the Bullet Club who put NJPW on fire, and Adam Cole from NXT, and Sting of course, and they are beating RAW in the key demo (which doesn't exist... wink wink nudge nudge). And by the way, this show is announced by Tony Schiavone. In France this would get a Kamoulox ref, which would probably too long to explain here, but really if you said this would happen to a pro-wrestling fan in September of 2017, this would have looked like complete and total insanity. No way in hell such of thing could ever occur in the real world. And yet. Just fascinating to me.

I know Nattie is a PWO punching bag, but she does have a great rep backstage and great respect from her peers, which is not something to ignore. Then again, so does Randy Orton.

Agreed that was an issue. But that was not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that they fucked up pretty much everyone in the main roster, making NXT irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and uncool to its audience because there is no "I can't wait until he/she graduates to the main roster". When it began running in circle, that's when things really went awry to me and that's much later than the Finn Balor era. We're talking late Gargano/Ciampa/Cole stuff. They already have damaged Bianca BeLair by treating her like a joke, making the investment building up to Mania as a waste of time. Not to say she won't bounce back, but still that booking was the stupidest shit imaginable. Bill Demott has been removed a long time ago. The new regime is apparently as inept in term of training talent. Tay Conti showed up in AEW with years at the Performance Center looking like she was a 6 months rookie. Sure, some super talented people like BeLair may slip through the cracks, but the evidence is there in term of this Performance Center being a failure (which is not surprising, pro-wrestling is not about doing calisthenics until you hurt yourself) and the WWE star making machine has been broken since about 2005, and the last few years are basically the nadir of the promotion on that respect. There's no unfixable issue, but as long as they have the same mentality as they do now, they won't fix anything at all. Vince is thrashed. And as long as Vince is alive, he's gonna run the show. And after he dies, I could see non-wrestling people taking over and we know what it means (either they don't care, either they don't get it). Sell to Disney and do fan service shows forever at this point (which really is already the selling point of Mania, has been for years now). Or maybe Jeff Jarrett will get the book once Vince (and Kevin Dunn, who's maybe the worst guy in the company, really) is gone. I mean, that guy slithered his entire career, that would be an amazing sight considering his father was supposed to take over if Vince went to jail (despite what Brucie says).

Considering the track record of the Performance Center and the booking in the last 10 years, I have no idea why anyone is thinking this change is gonna make any difference. Their training system sucks and their booking is godawful. The future is surely bright for pro-wrestling in general, once the pandemic finally ends. WWE ? Haven't we learned anything from the last decade ? They have to rethink *everything*, especially in the wake of AEW becoming the hot promotion that delivers to its audience what they actually want and allows the workers to express themselves. Recruiting star college athletes won't change things when you can't train worth a shit and you can't book a damn and still thinks guys from 20 years ago are the real stars. Mick Foley said it, they have a problem and even *Booker T* agreed. When Booker T of all people is not simply playing to corporate bullshit card, you've got an issue. It's not like it's new, but now the chickens have come back to roost. They can thank the TV rights bubble and the Saudi blood money that make them idiot proof seemingly "forever". They would be *so fucked* if they did not have those.

That's glorious !

Thanks ! Totally surrealistic to see Raven tagging with Hansen vs Taue & Tsuruta. I had no prior idea he ever toured with AJ.

That's it, this is canon ! This is too awesome ! Is there any video of Scotty in AJPW ? That would be the lost treasure of all lost treasure.

People on Twitter : "Yeah but...."

Well, I don't really care, pro-wrestling is better now anyway.

Plus pirate streams mean no advertisements. So these are useless views for the announcers anyway.