El-P

Not seen this one. I have some great pro-wrestling to watch !

FWIW, I believe Tanahashi said that Styles has been his favorite opponent. That's some praise.

That it's as irrelevant as people saying the same thing about Vader. It's what contributed to make Aja so great for the style she was going after.

Great match against PAC, great match against Page, great match against Fénix, great match against Mox... Nah, his AEW only reinforces his case thus far. He's been killing it showing up in IMPACT too.

His infamous long reign was the greatest since Kobashi in NOAH. Fascinating big match worker. Gotta dig up the years I haven't seen.

The three greatest matches I've seen in 30 years of watching pro-wrestling involve Kenny Omega (vs Naito for G1 Climax 17, the third Okada match, with Page vs Bucks in AEW last year). And that's from someone who really hated him at first. I'm gonna go back and watch his stuff in DDT and early NJPW and there's 5 years of US wrestling upcoming. But he was very instrumental in the three greatest matches I've ever seen... That's quite something because I've seen a whole lot of great pro-wrestling from everywhere and every era.

I mean, she certainly went way overboard at times, and she absolutely isn't (wasn't, because I haven't watch any of that stuff in probably 15 years) one of may favourites stylistically in this era, but to me the "she doesn't sell" bits doesn't bother me that much because selling certainly wasn't one of her priorities. She had others, in term of pacing, offensive-minded style, a sense of acceleration and culmination of bigger and bigger spots until the apex, a sense of desperation and fighting spirit that absolutely had the audience she was working for go batshit insane for her, the intensity of the work, the bumping, the velocity... Yes, she was not about long-term selling most of the time and yes she could get grating with the way she would run around without much transitions, but she brought up so many other elements at an insane level (that I'm not sure I've seen a lot since). I'm not sure what I'd think of it with my eyes of today, maybe I'll enjoy it less than before, maybe I'll see other stuff that make me enjoy it more, I have honestly no idea.

Who cares about overall, I'm telling you what times it is. Lashley vs Drew was very good. Rollins vs Cesaro was great. Sasha vs Bianca was excellent, with Sasha having a career performance. If you enjoy the idea of Bad Bunny playing Ricky Morton to Miz' Arn Anderson (yeah, I know), you'll probably love this match too. Overall (damn), a fun Mania night.

And you won't tell us what he asked and what Jericho answered ? Damn !

People got smarter and accepted pro-wrestling as some kind of "performance art" and put more and more value in the performance itself as they showed more appreciation for the work of the pro-wrestlers (which goes along caring more for them as human beings), while at the same time wanting to keep the "innocence" of playing along. Mike Oles was a prophet.

Oh, ok, makes total sense then. Yeah, it's crazy, he could have totally decided to go into cruise control for years considering how bad the booking got (aka Samoa Joe, who got seemingly demoralized after they screwed him up). Instead, he piled up great matches after great matches, against all kind of different opponents, all kind of different dynamics, all kind of different gimmick matches year after year. Actually I still have the last two years of his stint to watch (but I did see the biggest matches from this period already).

He was already a great pro-wrestler by 2003, he had the best Raven match ever just there. And you can't scratch 2005 when it was one of the best year in the promotion's history, with the iconic Styles v Daniels (vs Joe) series and the insane carry job of Abyss. Totally agree about the rest. Trying to think about the best TNA matches for @Superstar Sleeze podcast ended up basically listing great AJ Styles matches (many against Chris Daniels, whom is gonna have a great case too) and performances, no matter what he was being fed.

Long term selling isn't more realistic than what Toyota was doing. There's no immanence in pro-wrestling where everything is equivalent for everybody in every different context. Also, long-term selling, as great as it can be, can also be a crutch to produce forced drama (WWE Self-Conscious Epic says hello) or tell a more "coherent story" (although there's no "long-term selling" IRL, long-term selling is a narrative cliché, really) but that doesn't mean it makes for a more interesting or better match. Anyway, I agree with OJ about Toyota being actually really good at *selling* in the moment, which is the selling that matters the most. Her selling in submission holds is actually awesome, helped by her great flexibility. The idea that you need to sell everything *after* a shot/submission is a narrow notion which, again, has nothing realistic about it. Whoever does any sport knows that you can be hurting and "no-sell" while you're going on, or sell at points and not sell anymore after a while/almost immediately (because you're warming up, adrenaline and such). Toyota has her ideas of what greatness is, you don't need to like it, but you can't deny it. Trying to watch for stuff she isn't trying to do is useless. She's expressing her own style through her wrestling, as they would say, and she absolutely reached and produced greatness through it.

Oh yeah.... Brutal match. In a good way. But brutal nonetheless.

I haven't spent the last 6 years watching TNA for nothing. When you add the NJ stuff (which I really have seen only a little bit of), he's a lock for my top 15, at the very worst. The good WWE stuff is just post-prime icing on the cake. One of the most brillant pro-wrestler ever.

In WWE ? .... Anyway, I remember her mostly winning matches with running knee strikes.

Yeah, that's awesome. Not sure she thinks that way, but she has to know she was at that elite level where she totally made the other girl. Of course she's probably glad for Bianca, but there has to be a feel of pride in that "Well, that's how you do a main event job, people. Yep, I killed it."

It's also Kenny Omega's favorite match ever if I'm not mistaken.

(disclaimer : whatever I wrote before in this thread if I did is irrelevant today as I totally flipped the coin on Kurt Angle thanks to TNA) There are others but these were part of my TOP 25 TNA matches ever : 2008.04.13 Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe (cage match) (Final Resolution) MMA-like shoot-style infused heel performance 2008.08.10 Kurt Angle vs AJ Styles (Last Man Standing) (Hard Justice) Douchebag heel / great use of gimmick match 2009.01.11 Kurt Angle vs Jeff Jarrett (no DQ) (Genesis) Pissed off babyface / best Jarrett Special match ever 2010.04.18 Kurt Angle vs Mr. Anderson (Cage Match) (Lockdown) Great babyface grudge bloodfest spectacle 2012.06.10 Kurt Angle & AJ Styles vs Chris Daniels & Kazarian (Slammiversary) Total bombfest

Damn, I really can't stand the vibe this company is giving me. Why is Vince looks like he's made of wax ? Titus & Hogan was godawful. At least Hogan did not get shit, seems like the crowd either did not care of legit booed. Ahh, throwing people into the WWE barricade. I do not miss that... Lashley really doesn't have a lot of presence, but he sure is a hundred times better than ten years ago. On the other hand, the production and announcing is way distracting (and very annoying) when you're used to not-WWE-production-and-announcing. The cuts are nauseating. How can you people watch this shit every week and not get headaches ? Match meandered in the middle, but turning into a bombfest was the way to go. I mean Lashley is much better, but he doesn't strike me as a great worker either. Good match with I'd say a cool nice stretch. Nice guilt trip booking too. Hey, Bayley, you got your Mania spot. Happy, girl ? Bille Kay & Lana make Big Swole look like Jaguar Yoyota. WOW. JUST WOW. Nia is gonna give the TV screen a concussion just looking at it. Liv Morgan was crying on YOutube before the show, now she's crying because she has to work with Billie. This is Diva era level shit. Also, Carmella looking that good was basically a Sasha Banks magic trick I guess. Billie is hilariously terrible. And now for something totally the same, Dana Brooke. Mandy falling on her ass ! Remember when she looked like a breakout star ? Did Cole say "Sparkplug Morgan" ? She a Nascar pilot now ? She's a doing a good job nonetheless. FUCK ME !!! "There was an error !" THIS IS WCW PEOPLE !!! WHAT ARE THEY GONNA DO NOW ? IMPROVISE ? Hey, Tamina, daughter of a "legend", like Cole said. Hogan, Snuka, we get some legends for sure... Seriously, I don't wanna hear anything about AEW women not looking polished or whatever the fuck. Some of these girls have years of experience and they look awful. Poor Liv & Ruby, they have to carry all this dead weight. Tamina paying hommage to her father by killing a girl. Fuck that result. Nia vs Tamina, feel the wrestlecrap coming. Cesaro vs Rollins was terrific. Just great stuff. The verbal spot was goofy, but that's WWE style I guess. Nothing bad to say about this (damn, I realize I have more to say about bad wrestling). Oh yeah, stop bitching about stuff like the superplex/falcon arrow, which looks cool as hell and is just a spot. None of these have been finishers for 35/20 years, so a combo of two non-finishers is not gonna be one unless you make it one. Pro-wrestling is semiotics, moves are just signs. Same things for kicking out of the pedigree. People have kicked out of the pedigree 10 years ago in TNA. Really, bitching about this kind of stuff only means this : you're old and you think your youth was yesterday when it was actually 20 years ago. Anywoo. People acting like this was a Cesaro carry job are being goofy too. Cesaro was all kind of awesome, but Rollins was also excelling (not at the same level, but still). The punt counter was wonderful, great finish, cool winner. MOTN thus far. The New Day have been around for 20 years at this point it seems. Kofi won that world title, remember ? Yeah, doesn't matter. Wow, no idea who that tall mofo is but he sure is tall. His absolute non-urgency when AJ tried to tag him had me rollin. Performance Center training best training, or something. This match is stupid thus far with that tall goof looking like a tall goof. That Kofi splash was ace though. Hey, a non selling giant in 2021. Yawn. That shit was boring when Zeus was doing it. Gimme some falcon arrow/450/DDT combo instead. Funny how the crowd popped big when he entered the ring and now they are like "Yeah, this is actually boring" and only popped back when AJ did his big spot. Worst of 80's wrestling shit. You think this is gonna get over long term in 2021 ? I know the WWE audience is boomers, but even then, this won't fly for very long. Hell, he couldn't sustain the buzz for more than a few seconds. STEEL CAGE WITH SHANE-O MAC !!! WHERE THE FUCK IS MY X-BOX REMOTE ????????????????????????? GOTTA HEAT UP MY BATHROOM, I'M GONNA NEED A SHOWER AGAIN, I'M GONNA FEEL SO DIRTY LOOKING AT ..... Oh fuck, Jerry Lawler, now I really need a shower, right fucking now ! At least they did not bring him for the main event. Awww here comes the money. The guy looks ready to take over the Capitol ! Omos, Strawman, big tall guys who can't work. Feel the good old WWE pattern here ? Oh yeah, some fuckery already. Shane wasn't afraid or Taker, why would he be afraid of this big tool ? Really, Mania at this point is like Shane-O Mac's OnlyFan account. But apparently no one in the crowd has subscribed. Hey Bayley ! Shane & Braun had a match at Mania but you don't ! Liger not giving a flying fuck. Drew talking about the BRITISH flag ? How dare you ? Scotland independence now ! The nWo guys really needed Bischoff to do the annoying airplane spot with them. The rabbit army had me laugh uncontrollably. Yeah, I'm a 45 year old kid. Miz & Morrison kinda sucked though. WWE can't do funny. Just give me an army of rabbit and I'll laugh, but don't try to be actually funny, because you can't. Also, recap packages AFTER the intro is the DUMBEST idea, I have no idea why they do it, it makes no sense whatsoever. This whole feud looks legit horrible. How people have tolerated the Miz for all these years, I can't fathom. He was ok for two seconds when he had Maryse at his side and he was doing terrible Yes Kicks. So, I'm sure this is the "Celebrity X is better than 90% of the roster at pro-wrestling" moment that we get EVERY TIME on the board. Can we get Bianca vs Sasha already, this has been dragging forever since the funny bunny army and the match has not even started. And no, I don't give a flying fuck about Bad Bunny. I wouldn't care if Booba would show up at Mania. Wait, yes, of course I would. Not sure what is more offensive though, Miz' execution after 15 years or Morrison's haircut (really Johnny, WHAT THE FUCK ?). Hey, Bad Bunny is busting out some lucha libre shit, he's going into my GWE list. Fuck me, they are having an actual pro-wrestling match instead of going for the cool short celebrity match smokes and mirrors.... with the Miz trying to be Arn Anderson... vomit. This show has literally died since the awesome Cesaro win. Ok, that babyface comeback is waking everybody up. Dives ! CANADIAN DESTROYER ! Bad Bunny best rookie ever or something. It was ok and I guess pretty fun if you're into Bad Bunny and can block out Miz on offense. "For the first time ever two black women in the main event at Wrestle Mania". They fucking did it. I died. The White Supremacist President supporter who had Hulk "I guess we're all a bit racist" Hogan on the show twice are putting themselves over in the wakes of the BLM movement demonstrations for being WOKE-AS-FUCK. Why am I not surprised ? Moral value as a capitalistic product to turn social awareness into symbolic capital into economical capital. Ah ah ah fuck you so much WWE, you're the worst, as always. We're that close to Stephy inventing female black athletes being recognized and featured at the highest level. Anyway, great intro for both. Watching this match, it's like Bianca is a female Jeff Cobb from a few years ago. Great in spots, incredibly impressive doing incredibly impressive athletic stuff, but not so great in-between. Meanwhile, I watch Sasha and I get this old AJ Styles/Ric Flair feel of a totally elite worker leading the other one by the hand and working around the limitations and greenness. She was like SO ACE in this match. Total veteran-like work. And the match was totally designed for BeLair to come off like a star, and so she did. I'm sure Sasha was like "Don't worry girl, you'll go through this fine" in her ears at some points. But is it me or the crowd kinda went silent at some points and there was definitely piped in noise ? That braid shot at the end was awesome (the girl in green first row jumping out was pretty great). Great finish, great ending. The very first time I saw BeLair I thought she could be special so good for her, hopefully they don't screw her up now. As far as Sasha goes, well, this was one hell of an impressive job. Best of the Horsewomen, by a wide margin. So. Basically three matches worth the watch, Drew vs Lashley was very good, Cesaro vs Rollins was great (and MOTN really, technically speaking) and Bianca vs Sasha was an excellent/great main event with an AWESOME performance (the best of the night) by Sasha. As far as women main eventing Mania, this was everything the three way was not and a total success, with the right woman winning and the right way to end the night. Considering the awfullness of the later Mania, for these three matches only and the Bad Bunny stuff if you're a fan, this was a pretty damn decent Mania night honestly. 3 hours is fine and well enough.

Oh yeah I was thinking about that too and forgot it when I wrote my post, they must be elated to work in front of a real crowd finally. It must be such a breath of air for them, and hopefully it will show.

With no Mania last year, the audience should love everything, at least for those two nights, unless WWE does something really stupid, and no, I don't even mean having Das Racist hosting a show headlined by two black women, because whitewashing has its limits you see (Titus really should come out to the sound of "True to the Game" by Ice Cube and look depressed about it). I hope Orton vs Fiend reaches the pinnacle of so stupid and dumb it's actually good (ie Taker vs HHH Hell in the Cell). Like a lot of oppressive companies and governments, WWE had benefited from COVID in term of controlling people. Part of me really believe that if they could stay in the Thunderdome for ever, they would rather do it at this stage. Still, for these two nights of Mania in this context, I expect the crowd to be super positive for everything (plus the shows aren't gonna be those long-ass nights of the last few years)

They really should have Bianca win on night 1 (which she will) and Bryan win on night 2 (which he most probably won't) to let the people have a real happy moment.

To me, yes, influence in how the form of pro-wrestling has evolved is definitely important. And even way more importantly than new moves (although obviously it is very important because otherwise we'd have matches with a vertical suplex as a finisher still), *the way* pro-wrestlers are moving inside the ring and how they use this space and the space outside absolutely matters to me. With that line of thought, someone like Naomichi Marufuji, who's been a great pro-wrestler for like 20 years now, is somewhat of a pro-wrestling genius in that he has changed the way pro-wrestler uses their space, with his use of ropes and turnbuckles in unusual ways (I'm not sure if he came up with the misdirection spot too, but it was all in this spirit, KENTA actually was also instrumental in this). Without the form evolving, pro-wrestling has nothing interesting to tell in and out of itself as I said before (pro-wrestling match stories.... yawn....). Fuck, I'd make an argument for Sabu, really (yes, I know table spots existed before, but there's a clear before/after Sabu in terms of how prevalent and how they were laid out and used then abused and overused, 25 years later still). As far as new moves that are so awesome that no one even dares to do it since then, the moonsault footstomp of Hikari Fukuoka needs to come back in style at some point. Someone will see it, want to do it and someone is gonna be willing to take it...

And this my friends, is exactly the reason why he has no shot at being my #1. Because in the end, I value the experience of the greatness in a pro-wrestling match actualized into an aesthetic that I actually care for. And the fact Daniel Bryan worked his prime years in the one context I care the less for and has maybe some of the greatest pro-wrestling work against people you'd have to pay me to willingly watch at this point (hello Kane, coucou Miz) just makes it impossible for me to consider him as my #1 guy. He is just missing that one little Japanese experience or one US big time promotion (hell, even TNA !) work outside of the WWE patterned and overproduced context (which he has successfully tweeked as much as humanly possible because he's just that great). I would love for him, even at this stage, to work that one G1 Climax... Bryan ended up in the WWE system too soon, which has deprived me (and other people) of watching him in the prime of his years in different contexts where he could have expressed his genius in much more satisfying ways. Won't keep him out of my top 10 (or even 5) though.