El-P

Isn't this like the greatest picture ?

I don't have to agree with those reasons though, especially when they seem to be pretty entrenched in a very normative discourse, which is something, like I said, I don't really care for anymore (I used to, I don't anymore). And we should always be wary of our own good faith, I in good faith said tons of stuff I absolutely disagree with today (including about, well, those guys and contemporary pro-wrestling in general as I stated way earlier). The thing that made me change my mind about a lot of things (and that goes way beyond my pro-wrestling tastes/opinions) was working on my own cognitive bias, and it's an everyday thing, really, it never ends. This may explains that indeed. You always hear the most vocal minority indeed and it does twist the perceptions. As far as pro-wrestling being overall better now than it ever was, that's an opinion I share, yes. But that doesn't mean I don't think there wasn't absolute greatness before.

And why not ? I mean, I'm sorry but why should it be, by default, an unacceptable idea ? Because that's where the issue lies. For some reason, the idea that these guys are, forget "the best ever", simply some of the greatest workers ever is apparently unfathomable to some in ways that triggers them. And I get "not getting it" or not even wanting to contemplate it, because for instance when I heard people talk about how Okada vs Tanahshi was the equivalent of Kawada vs Misawa (and maybe even better) years ago, my first reaction was "How dare you !" and I would not contemplate that idea whatsoever. Right now, I don't find it shocking at all and I find my first reaction to be pretty ridiculous. But I had to work around my own cognitive bias and habits to begin to change my own perception of how things work and why they work the way they do. Like I said in the Tamura vs Han survey thread, any prescriptive approach of pro-wrestling I have zero time for anymore. It's just too much of a subjective thing. I'm much more interested in a descriptive approach, first of all because it's much "easier" that way to try and reach for the most objectivity possible (although it's never really attainable), and also because it's basically more interesting to try and understand how things works rather than "Do I agree with it or not ?" (because really, who cares ?). The last big lesson I received was when I was doing my reviews of Taker matches at Mania, during the infamous streak of epics. It occurred to me that it did not matter whether some stuff were the most suited to my own taste, when taking the right amount of distance from my own bias I was able to get why some stuff were indeed rightly called great and a success despite me not being the biggest fan. Plus this way I was able to actually enjoy them more than I would have otherwise, so it's a win-win.

The issue I have with this argument, which I have heard before, is that generally speaking, people who blast Omega & the Bucks (to take the biggest offenders, but you can throw in modern NJPW in general, Will Ospreay, Adam Cole and the likes) usually say "This is shit, this is not how pro-wrestling used to be done and should be done, it's insulting to compare them to the actual great workers in history", while you very seldom hear (and honestly I have *never* heard it) people who love Omega, the Bucks and whatnot shit on the great workers of the past (and why would they, as OJ said these guys are the product of 25 years of studying and loving all those great workers and geeking out on the internet about them). It's pretty much a one way street.

Christian Cage being called "old-school" is something that is pretty amusing to me. When the late 90's/early 00's came, with them came a new generation of workers who did not, at all, work like their predecessors. Christian was one of them. The very way he was moving inside the ring felt foreign to me. He absolutely wasn't like Tito Santana, Bret Hart and even Shawn Micheals, not to mention Savage or Flair. He did bizarre looking moves and tons of dives. The structure of his matches did not look like anything close to what I was used to. And it wasn't really the stuff Benoit, Malenko & Eddie were doing in WCW either (and that I had seen in NJPW earlier in the decade). With Edge and the Hardys, Christian Cage is the picture boy from that first generation of guys who had this "indy" feel to it, before the first generation of ROH came on the scene. The fact his style of work, which has evolved over the years of course, but remains very different from what I was used to when I discovered pro-wrestling, is called "old-school" or even "classic" demonstrates too things : 1/I'm old. Fuck me. 2/"old-school" is only relative. In 25 years, 18 years old guys will talk about the Omega/Ospreay stuff as "old school, boomer (I mean, whatever term they'll use then) pro-wrestling from back in the days" and it's a given some people will refer to this period as the "old-school mentality". For Lou Thesz, the ever credible and oh-so-believable NWA World Champion, Ric Flair was a clown who was business exposing and doing nonsensical trampoline-looking shit. One of the funniest and actually most accurate thing I've heard about this was the Best Friends joking (in those segments the Bucks used to tape in hotel rooms) that the next generation of workers will be "Lock up, 450 !!!!!!!!". There is historically an evolution of pro-wrestling that goes toward quicker, more athletic, with more spots and more *spectacular* and physically demanding spots. Mind you, not *everybody* is going this route (Okada built his entire style around a fucking dropkick and a short clothesline, in US wrestling it's the equivalent of borrowing from Jim Brunzell & Jake Roberts, to stay in the 80's state of mind, but of course the complexity and actual structure of the matches are absolutely contemporary), but that's the way it goes overall. Which isn't just a pro-wrestling thing, it's very much linked to many many sociological, economical, physiological elements. But that is the way it goes. And the "back to the basics" approach can only be both a reactionary movement (like every retro stuff in pop music, not that it's necessarily bad, but it definitely clutch onto an imaginary norm from a golden age, which is always the most "bourgeois" kind of attitude, because it's always about the past and defending the status quo) but also a very relative experiment, because every generation has its own idea of what the old-school is. And of course, totally self-aware, in essence (he cannot be otherwise, their can't be spontaneity in trying to recreate something that isn't anymore). Hence, the fact Christian Cage being considered like this very much old-school kind of worker kinda strikes me as odd to me because my mind has discovered pro-wrestling goodness with Curt Henning vs Tito Santana. This is old-school, not Christian Cage ! (but of course it's not, because what is really old school is Ray Stevens, except it's not etc etc...)

I googled it. Learn something everyday. I really enjoy Robbie Eagles BTW. I guess Billie Kay & Peyton Royce are gonna show up in IMPACT eventually. They'd be right at home there too.

*raise hand * Actually, knowing myself, I'd be Orange Cassidy in lazy mode.

Promoted by Coach Tony K., from sleaze thread fame. Yeah, I mentioned it before, but the fact Mox got familiar with Japanese deathmatches the same exact way as I did (saw the Cactus Jack pictures from Japan on WWF TV and Terry Funk in ECW, bought the IWA King of Deathmatches tape) really struck me in term of how much this generation of pro-wrestlers are basically like "us". They are the product of the culture we were all (speaking for the boomers on this board) an active part of. Or simply phones. But mostly 4K screens, for sure. I think somewhere there's also the Internet culture of memes showing up in the middle of this. I mean, Orange Cassidy is totally a meme pro-wrestler. And meme absolutely play on recycling pop culture trash and clashing bizarre aesthetics, which also gave us the vaporwave scene in the 10's. When I think about it, Blue Meanie X Lemmy X Japan X meta... Yeah, maybe Kenny Omega is the first vaporwave pro-wrestler.

I've been thinking about something for quite a while, is that pro-wrestling is actually getting more and more real as it evolves. What they do inside the ring in term of actual physical stuff, because of the complexities of the spots and sequences, the legit strenght spots (in a match with Jeff Cobb for instance), the flying that has never been as crazy as it is today, the pacing, the stiffness in some cases, all of this is infinitely more real than it ever was before. And as the audience enjoys it for what it is, the need to be "believable", whatever that even meant (because really now let's be serious), is getting more and more irrelevant because there is no need to believe what supposedly happens, because what actually happens is real. The most unrealistic it gets, the more real it actually is and the more straight (both as in direct and also honest) the relationship between the performance and its audience gets. I find it fascinating that something that was born as a fraud and total pretend carny game at the beginning has basically evolved toward a form that has no care for any kind of "realism" and no care for believability anymore, because it doesn't need to, as the pretend as turned into an actual reality, with an honest value of its own.

Like Steamboat's shotgun sell of Flair chops or his über-theatrical karate chops. To me there's no disconnect whatsoever. Earlier in the year when I was watching some Lou Thesz matches I was legit cracking up at some oh-so-obvious theatrical bullshit from good old Lou and I was thinking "This is so great, things haven't actually changed very much, it was the same awesome bullshit back then." Now, where you can actually underline a difference is that, yes, there is a use of meta in the game of some workers today, Omega and the Bucks being obvious ones but not the only ones. They are twisting some pro-wrestling tropes in ways that goes beyond what was done before (the way Matt Jackson was mocking the babyface hot-tag formula in a match recently absolutely had a meta aspect to it, and it's precisely where he's banking on his audience intelligence, because the audience can read and appreciate both layers of the match *at the same time*, everybody knows what they are watching and you can multitask your watching experience).

Funny how he of all people would find a good role in GCW ! Wasn't exactly a given when you think about the first few times he showed up in AEW and even IMPACT, where he totally looked like a guy who had spent way too much time in WWE to ever evolve.

Indeed. The "You can't deny Nikki Ash is doing incredible" is cute... I mean... really now...

May take a while. First time I saw him in 2015 I called him "putrid" and the worst thing in pro-wrestling or something. I'd slap myself. He's definitely an acquired taste.

Hum... no. That's purely projecting stuff. The idea that Omega wants his audience to "see the strings" (really now, people have seen the strings for decades) is a complete projection, there's exactly *nothing* in his work that would indicates this. The whole "Kenny Omega is a post modern worker who's all about irony and meta" is inaccurate. Is there meta in Omega and the Buck's work ? Sure. But it's mostly in term of presentation and characters (honestly, the whole meta stuff is kept onto BTE). Omega's quest to dethrone Okada in Japan had nothing inauthentic about it. He made people in the audience cry when he won the title. So, the whole "he's not believable and all about irony" just doesn't work. People mix up the fact he (and the Bucks) are aware of the ridiculousness of pro-wrestling and actually revel and embrace it in a, yes, very meta way, and the fact everything about them would just be ironic. It isn't. We don't need to pretend we don't know what it's about, no one has to "show us the strings" (even Orange Cassidy, whose gimmick on the indies was entirely ironic, did not need to). Omega & the Bucks are actually banking of their audience to be smarter, but not to be cynical. Post-modern ? The fuck if I know, especially since that term has been overused and abused for years in every aspect of pop culture. Brillant ? No doubt.

So, it's time for a troll poll already ? Ok. Let me do Jerry Lawler vs Art Barr then...

Different strokes for different people. I find Omega to be funny. And yes, he's goofy and kooky. That's him. You say that like it's a bad thing ! He's going for an outrageous and ridiculous (because he's kooky) heel look, so fuck yes Lemmy X Blue Meany is actually awesome. But that's really not the point that was made, Stacey referred to the work style. Danielson & Omega definitely come from the same mindset and culture, with some differences of course, Omega having the heavy legit main event Japanese experience while Danielson only worked a few times over there or against Japanese guys in an US indy environment that was itself very much influenced by it, but the love for modern japanese style is basically what made the match what it was in term of style (hence the exchange of heavy chops and kicks etc...).

Taichi is ON. Gotta love Miho Abe as a straight babyface too. I'm all in on Taichi to go far.

Sounds interesting. And what was Matt Cardona's big announcement ?

I was thinking about that yesterday when I was watching him. I can totally see Vince just getting tired of his new toy eventually, like he does with everyone else that isn't Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar, and humiliating him on the main roster just to prove a point about those Steiner guys who were WCW products anyway. BTW, Curtis Axel hasn't popped up anywhere yet.

He also showed tons of restraint (but not the same kind) working with Christian Cage, because he obviously knew there was no way 48 years old Christian was working the kind of match he would have with Jungle Boy for instance, or any kind of japanese style pacing really. The guy is just a master in knowing exactly what to do depending on the context (which matters too) and the abilities of his opponents.

Yes that's more like it. When I said there was no typical Kenny Omega match, I'd rather have said there isn't a stereotypical or formulaic Kenny Omega match. Totally agree with the "well disguised" point, that sounds very accurate to me (and a credit to that man's brillant mind) Yup. There was no way Jungle Boy was beating him, but he managed to make it absolutely believable it could happen.

No. Kenny Omega has no typical match, although if you know your Kenny Omega you'll know what details he's working in and what sequences he is building and how he is building his stuff. But you'll watch him working against Fénix or Christian and you'll get two quite different approaches (or with Mox in a barb-wire gimmick match, or with young underdog Jungle Boy, or with big-ass hoss Moose). The V-Triggers are just a weapon. Omega's style is stiff Japanese style. Shots look like they fucking kill you, like say Ishii's chops or.... well, Danielson's kicks. So of course you're gonna get a lot of those. And if you believe they aren't doing anything, you're not looking at it the right way (they are not gonna lay down selling forever because of the accumulative damage, that's not what it's about, that's not what they are aiming for, obviously, because if they wanted to do so well they would do it). This match was very much Japanese style when I think about it. I mean, Danielson's big thing was wanting to work that style, he wants to do the G1, so... Yes. Never ever too late to catch up though. I was at the same point in 2015 when I began to catch up with the current stuff. I just did not get it because my mind was programmed and biased toward what I thought I knew. Took me a bit of time (a few years, honestly, I think I really got pretty much in-synch in about 2018) to adjust, and also, and that was no easy thing, to leave behind a bunch of confirmation bias about "how it's supposed to be done" (which always basically come down to "I'm not used to this/I don't get it therefore it sucks", I can see plenty of that in old posts of mine from the early-mid 10's, and that includes guys like Cena at one point then BTW). I mean, first times I saw Omega and the Bucks in 2015 I *hated* them, like truly hated them, my first posts about these guys back then are sadly the most stereotypical stuff than I still see today about them (which of course annoys me to no end because what you hate the most in other people is always your own flaws ). Today I consider Omega as a GOAT contender and the Bucks to me are the GOAT team and probably some of the most brillant workers I've ever seen, like, smarter than anyone, just ahead of the curve on every aspect of the game (which is why they annoy so many people, including me at one point). I'm honestly not sure what to tell you if you did not think it looked like a pro-wrestling match... I mean, I wonder what you'd think about that insane G1 Climax match last year between Ibushi and Taichi which consisted at 99% of *kicks to the legs* ! I kid not not. Of course this was a once in a lifetime experiment and just an out of this world experiment is minimalism (if you can call it that), and that's taking things to the extreme, but that was also a great, great pro-wrestling match. In this case, well, I could understand the question "Where are the moves ?", but then again, not really. The moves are right there. This is pro-wrestling, and really the state of the art pro-wrestling in 2021. Doesn't get much better than that (well, Ishii vs Takagi was even better though, and talk about shots that would kill galore !).

I'm exactly at the same point. I've watched bits and pieces and although yes indeed Bron Steiner is cool and has tons of potential, the whole thing still reeks of good old WWE to me. And WWE's production, presentation and booking/match ideas are so off-putting to me (I don't even want to mention the announcing) that it's just a no no. For instance that Toxic Attraction segment was cringe as fuck, with the awful unnatural WWE verbiage and reference to NXT *2.0* at every corner because it's Da Brand. And really a bunch of average at best two minutes matches is not gonna cut it for me (and how this is gonna teach those guys to learn how to work actual match with content is beyond me, just throw these guys into the sea and let them work it out). With AEW and IMPACT weekly shows plus regular stuff from Japan and some older stuff I watch from time to time, that show has no shot getting into my weekly pro-wrestling regime, which is already way too fat (got way too much time on my hands). The thing is, it looks more like a developmental program, but the flipside is that NXT was put on TV not as a developmental tool but because it was supposed to be a hot "promotion" to counter-act the pissant company. That horse has left the barn. So now you'll get a bunch of green as grass people doing in-front of TV training, basically. For now it's brand new and has caught the attention of people, good for them, but how sustainable is it, especially since, as a "real" developmental tool (as opposed to what NXT had become), how long before Vince just throws whomever he wants in the main roster letting the program high and dry like he did in the times of OVW ? Except this time, it will hurt a show that's on national TV.

All of this is completely ridiculous. He should be Rex and come to this music theme, period, end of discussion.

Tanahashi vs Taichi & Okada vs Cobb actually are two of the most interesting matches on the Block to me, but don't tell me that SANADA vs EVIL actually gets to be the main event. Which would also imply that EVIL would be in contention until the end. Holy fuck, spare me the pain already.