El-P

It's not a theory, it's a fact. Hogan vs Flair did not draw well in 91 in WWF. The contexts were vastly different. In 91 Hulkamania was a tired thing in WWF. Flair was never presented as that huge of a deal (certainly not in the booking) before winning the Rumble, he was the guy with "some blurred world title belt". His main feud on TV was with Piper, who was mostly an announcer then, there was no real build for Hogan vs Flair on TV. In 94, it was Hulk's first match ever in WCW, which was seen as a huge event in itself. Flair had been the top heel in the company since he came back in 93. The match was totally sold as a dream match between the two greatest pro-wrestling stars ever, it was really the jumpstart of a brand new WCW under Bischoff. The entire promotion then was build around this match.

Yep. They were the main reason I still watched part of the show, but lately there's just too much too watch and I don't want to get burned out. I usually watch a match or two if I have some interest in them. Put Taz instead of JR on Dynamite and you have a killer trio.

Connection issue just as I posted = triple post.

WrestleMania 34 (2018) – "Undertaker vs John Cena" There’s this idea that Disney should buy WWE. Well, this "match" gives you pretty much the idea of what WWE would be under Disney. This is basically what we call « fan service ». Much like Disney has done with the Star Wars franchise (since we’re talking about brands here, really), from the atrocious (that last trilogy, especially the very last movie which is an embarrassment of epic proportions) to the « quite ok job of selling toys » with the Mandalorian. In other words : Mania 33 : Undertaker the perfect send-off Mania 34 : nevermind... Yeah, I know it’s wrestling, but it still makes no sense whatsoever to have Taker back after the perfect ending. But you gotta do fan service. Ok. Yeah, sure the intro is still great. And fuck me if John Cena is not doing some of the greatest sell-job for Taker’s character. Yeah Shane McMahon you useless waste oxygen supply, JOHN MOFERFUCKING CENA is selling that’s he’s INTIMIDATED by the Undertaker. Anyway. That is actually what’s so depressing about this. Well, that and the fact that despite playing the hits for two minutes (fan service), Taker does about the most laughable flying clothesline he ever did (I mean, Kane would approve of it...) and really doesn’t look like « the best he's ever been » like this dumb fuck Micheal Cole says at the end. Yeah, the announcing really has reached a level of straight verbal lobotomy, it’s crazy anyone can still listen to this shit without going totally gaga. But anyway. What’s so depressing about this is that THIS is the Taker vs John Cena Mania match we get. Why in the living fuck could they not have booked the ONE dream match EVERYONE ACTUALLY WANTED FOREVER BEFORE ENDING THE STREAK ? So there, John Cena vs Undertaker is a two minutes fan-service idiotic non-match one year after one of the greatest send-off and Mania closing ever. Well fucking done. And really now, this is not a match. This is pure fan-service. If this was a match, John Cena kicks out of the finisher as everybody as done, including that goof Bray Wyatt whom Cena had defeated a few years before (not to mention that other idiot whose name I won’t even write anymore). It’s just ridiculous. About as ridiculous as Disney bringing back a CGI Carrie Fisher to work some nonsense sequence. Might as well been a CGI Taker there. So ok, I get it, people in the stadium sure were happy to see Taker and why the fuck not, but in the grand scheme of things it makes no sense and is a very frustrating reminder that we never got and will never get maybe the biggest dream match WWE could have booked for seemingly ten years now, and seeing how GREAT Cena is at little things like his amazing sell of the zombie sit-up (he basically stumbles and stop as he was running toward Taker), it’s a pretty safe bet that it would have been one of the best Taker’s Mania matches and one of the greatest big stadium spectacle ever. Instead we got fan-service years too late. Fuck you WWE. 13-1-12

Moose vs Swann was terrific. People would go gaga over this match if it had happened in WWE. Moose is a trooper, he was built for months and months, delivered big time in big matches, got in the best shape of his life, all to put Swann over. Ace Austin back as X-div champ was the right move, TJP is a great technical worker but so flat as the same time. Deaner & Doering vs Storm & Sabin was really solid. Deonna had the best ODB match you're gonna have at this point. And so, FinJuice are the new IMPACT tag team champ. These NJ guys sure know how to work an exciting ending stretch, match got excellent at the end. Surprising and exciting result.

Uhhhhh.... So this is basically just more Dark matches with only a different announcing team ? I expected something else. Dunno why, but something different in term of format. Gonna watch the main event eventually, but I was barely watching Dark at all anymore, I'm not gonna watch more of the same. It's a good thing Dynamite really delivered this week, otherwise it would have been a streak of letdowns.

Considering the mild activity on this thread, it's just about as good. I doubt the Youtube show is gonna get much talk. Maki Itoh vs Riho as a main event, I'm so there this week.

The big difference is that Cornette would never say 1/10 of what he says to the people in person. .......... wait....

Also, I would always rather watch something that isn't successful but that I enjoy (ie IMPACT/Lucha Underground) than something that is successful but that I don't enjoy (WWE). Of course something that isn't successful has more chance to end (LU), but everything has to end eventually. And if something gets successful but I don't like it anymore (WWF in 99), then I don't watch it anymore so it ends anyway.

Oh, I don't mean there's a correlation. Also I could not care less about the WWE HoF in term of what it represents. But the fact they always want to induct women (for obvious reasons) and yet Sable has not been inducted yet struck me as kinda odd. I wonder if there's anything there (I know she sued them, but then worked for them again, so it can't be this).

Best reason ever. Don't need more. Also, to the "I want them to succeed" crowd, newsflash : that's what they do. Maybe not the way you'd want them to, but they are already succeeding. They won the war with NXT, they have a great TV deal, they just made the biggest non WWE PPV in 22 years, workers want to sign with them. Things are going quite ok, really. There's no impending gloom & doom because of some booking issues (which are greatly overstated, really, as I have mostly loved their TV shows lately apart from the terrible build for the Shaq match and some minor stuff) and two big mistakes on a PPV, one of which being an accident (the other one could have been prevented, BTW Christian meant nothing in term of ratings on Dynamite, so there goes the narrative of "huge huge star" and whatnot). At some point, how many goalpost can one move before accepting that they are actually doing quite well, especially considering the context ? They are not doing Attitude Era numbers ? Good. I don't want another Attitude Era. I don't care if they go mainstream or not. I want a healthy pro-wrestling promotion presenting a product that I enjoy. This is the case *now*.

Aaron Stevens was probably the worst part of the NWA reboot, he's a guy who clearly belongs in WWE (that's where he shined the most by far and has been brutally annoying to me in NWA). That he of all (but who's left ?) people would get an NWA title really makes the entire thing like a complete joke. This needs a mercy killing, really. Last thing for Aldis to do is grab that big match with Kenny Omega and pass him the title so Omega can add it to the upcoming TNA/IMPACT/AAA/AEW collection and do the old Ultimo Dragon gimmick.

FTR, I loved fire spitting Steamboat. Beats a guy who shows up with a baby. Do people ever remember that Steamboat was in the WWF for a cup of coffee in 91 ? It's actually the very first time I saw Steamboat.

Honestly Sable was getting white hot before WWF really exploded. By early 98 she was already receiving ridiculous pops from the crowd. I haven't watched Mania XIV in eons, but I would not be surprised if she got the second of third biggest pop of the night. I mean, honestly Goldust & Marlena were a much bigger act than Molly ever was so you can argue Terri Runnels was a much bigger star too. I doubt Dustin is getting anytime soon though... But it's nothing against Molly, really, I was always a fan, it's just that, as always, it comes off really random, especially as a first inductee of the year. Reeks of "Hey look, we announce a female first !". Maybe they can induct Lesnar & Sable the same year. Marc Mero could do the induction speach.

This thread is endlessly fascinating and the best thread on PWO. Looking forward to the follow-ups whenever you do them.

Super classy. And what if she had more dicks in her than a urinal at MSG ? None of anyone's fucking business and that would not make her or anyone male or female any less of a dignified human being. Yeah, slut-shaming alert. As far as not seeing her on a pro-wrestling show, yeah, she's only improved by leaps and bounds over the last year and a half and I really wish she would get more focus on her as a performer than being a valet for Marc Me Kip Sabian.

Yes, the fact Cornette has so many braindead followers turns his shit into online bullying, pretty much, so it's hard to "just ignore it" when a bunch of low-lives are calling your friend a slut because an old fossil is boo-boo because he doesn't like Kenny Omega and has to lash out, preferably using misogynic/homophobic and sometime even racist terms.

For the people who want AEW to be successful, well, rejoice because they already are. There's no doom & gloom in AEW's future. Imagine social media during the Monday Night Wars. It would have been brutal. The echo-chamber effect of social media is making everything worse, but you gotta admit the negativity about AEW comes from a crowd of haters who either just won't admit than anything current or forward looking can be good or successful ever (the Cornette crowd) and people who consider that anything un-WWE is worthless. The über-tribalism really is more into the negative aspect of things. To sometime ridiculous degree that has absolutely no connection whatsoever with reality, as showed by the way NWA Powerr & Dark shared a large part of their audience (so the comments about everything modern sucking and thank god NWA was back to do real wrestling in the Youtube comments weren't meaning anything since a lot of people would watch both NWA & AEW on Youtube that day). Everything is polarized, but when you see AEW, IMPACT, NWA, NJPW and whatever joshi promotion Itoh and Ryo come from working cross promotion stuff and people getting excited about it (I know I am), it also means there's this thirst for someone bigger than just supporting one promotion but rather having fun with the entire pro-wrestling landscape, because it opens so much more. And you can only get that outside of WWE.

Not really. I quote, I erase the part of the quote that I don't reply to. Then I quote again and do the same thing. Super easy. Please don't. Yes ? Who ? What ? WHAT ? quote Ok Do what ? To whom ? Suspense is riveting... Ok let's go !

I don't have a Twitter account.

Molly was a good worker at a time there was barely any in the women's division. And that's it. She was an undercard act. One of her most infamous angle was being made fun of because she was "fat". Anyway, it's not like the WWE HOF means anything. Still, I truly wonder why Sable isn't in it yet. She really was the top 2 star of the Attitude Era, all joking aside, for a moment. It's funny, her case is something I have reconsidered in the lights of Conrad's podcasts and prism of everyday misogyny. We're absolutely dealing with a case of slut-shaming I beliebe with her (as was the case with Chyna), because all she did was basically show her body (although she did work a few matches here and there despite never been trained). The super negative perception she has had for years kinda changes a bit when you realize she was not a performer at all, was thrown under the lights and in a matter of a few months became a legit draw in the pro-wrestling industry, no matter the reason. Add to the fact she apparently was the shy, loner kind (you don't marry Brock Lesnar if you're a socialite, I don't think), like guys like Luger were, and that's a recipe for disaster in term of working in such a toxic masculine environment. We hear all the time about "what gets over gets over, what draws draws", well, she got over and she drew people. Because she showed skin ? Sure. Was she a good performer otherwise ? Not really, although she did look really good at Mania XIV while never have worked one match in her life, so maybe in another context she could have become a decent worker, who knows ? She wasn't a good promo either. In other words, Karen Jarrett she was not. The fact remains she's probably the only real star of the Attitude Era who has not been inducted yet.

Well, me too obviously ! Well, Blanchard was a really good promo. The other two, nope, indeed. There's probably something to the fact great workers did not need to be great promos if you had a guy on the other side who could carry the load. Plus the manager culture was much more prevalent for the heels (although that doesn't mean the babyfaces were always good promos anyway, I mean, the fucking Von Erichs...) Even General Takada in Hustle ? Damn. We aren't gonna argue again about Takada for the GWE 2026, are we ? I mean, I'll probably not re-watch Takada matches at this point anyway, his case (and greatness) is pretty much an established thing as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, since Molly Holly in the WWE HOF is basically a joke (really now, Molly Holly ? She sure wasn't a top 5 star during the Attitude Era like You Know Who) but they need to induct women because Stephy invented feminism, why hasn't Sable been inducted yet ? Because she certainly was a Top 2 star during the Attitude Era for a while. And that's legit, no one moved numbers and merchandise like her, she was only second to Austin.

I was always a heel fan, so when the babyface is uncool, it's just a death spot for me to be in. Of course he was, in the ring working.

Well, Meltz mentioned that Vince basically saw nothing in Andrade, so maybe there's something to this. Fuck, now I want La Sombra & Thea Trinidad to show up in AEW.