El-P

Damn, you're right, that was cool. That went over my head, I was thinking "Keiji Muto" (that's where Brodie picked it up I believe since it has been Mutoh's signature for ever).

I lost my mind when Atsushi Onita popped up on the screen. I referred a few days ago how Tony Khan was really "one of us", and that show screamed of this. And really, how can you not love a show with : 1/WCW-like celebrity match with Shaq going into a fucking table 2/Aja Kong in a video clip / joshi puroresu match for the next PPV 3/Atsushi Onita cutting a promo in Japanese 4/Tully Blanchard doing the fucking sling shot suplex. In 2021. 5/Tony Schiavone having interactions with JJ Dillon and Paul Wight, again. I thought Jade looked quite ok considering we don't even know if she had 10 matches under her belt and none on TV. See you in 5 years. And Red Velvet also shined considering she's green AF.... that is until she had to set up the table (she's a tiny woman, it showed there), she was probably really nervous and I felt bad for her at that moment... Missing the spear was AAA camera work, but hey, shit happens. The match was tons of fun and way better than it had the right to be. Shaq going through the table was the perfect spot to try and get some mainstream attention. The Jericho line was a missfire indeed (because honestly Jericho would probably main event Mania since he's only 50 years old), but that's the only one of an otherwise great segment. Max Caster has some charisma but I'm not feeling it otherwise. That match certainly happened. On the other hand, those two Private Party guys are improving by leaps and bounds, it's so fun to see them evolve. Nyla vs Mizunami was really good (best match of the show probably). The right woman won too, they would not fly her to have her lose. The PPV match should be a banger, as they say. BTW, Shida in street clothes . The irony (or not) of having Tully Blanchard win a match on TNT the day Jim Crockett Jr. dies. Life is so unpredictable. No More BS is a genius idea for a Wight T-shirt. Miro's promo was kinda meta too. I do wish Schiavone would have thrown the "This is the greatest night in the history of our sport", because that TV show was mostly awesome. And again. ATSUSHI ONITA ON MY TV ? Fuck yeah AEW. Yeah, Coah Tony K, you lurker.

I guess so. That being said, let's not pretend it has nothing to do with Vince having the attention span of a teenager on TikTok when he comes to giving someone a serious push.

The issue is that the WWE style is basically the dullest, most patterned style ever. You can't be different, you can't work a different way, which is basically the essence of pro-wrestling and why it's fun to watch. Trying to make everyone work the WWE style is why I could never care for this company for the last 20 years every time I gave it a try. This is why people like Mox or Brodie left. This is why FTR left. This is why they will never be able to have a true latino star coming from Mexico, because in the end he'll be working like Sheamus or something (or end up like all of them doing stupid shit on the undercard). What used to be fun about WCW is that it was a clusterfuck of different workers and styles.

The mere idea of "learning the WWE main event style" is everything wrong about this company and why it has sucked stylistically for so long.

NXT hasn't been seen as developmental in forever now, even way before AEW came into existence. It had already turned into the cool "Indie-dream-matches-with-WWE-production promotion under the benevolent figure of Triple H-the-future-savior-of-WWE" before getting a bit less cool once people understood that their favorites were gonna mostly amount to nothing once called into the main roster. NXT then turned into basically the "Let's kill that pissant company that is pretending to be competition" part of the brand and got its ass kicked, despite wearing the WWE stamp which only means 40 years jumpstart of equalling pro-wrestling worldwide. Even expecting a brand new company with guys who made their fame on the indies (PWG, ROH), Japan (NJPW) and Youtube (BTE) competing with a WWE program seemed ridiculous at first. Yet, they did not just compete, they basically fucked NXT up in the key demos. Not that it matters anyway since Vince has screwed pretty much every can't miss prospect coming up from NXT by himself.

My analogy will be much more accurate and funnier too. At least that's the first thing that came to my mind.

WrestleMania XXVII (2011) – Undertaker vs Triple H This match is almost like a confession of helpnesness. They know they have no shot whatsoever of following the last two (at least) matches. After the Micheals classics, the Streak has absolutely reached up to the Myth and there’s nothing big enough to measure up to it, not to mention no way to have as great of actual pro-wrestling matches strictly technically speaking. I wonder why John Cena did not get the follow-up, because if there ever was a time, that was it. But since we’re in mythical times now, you gotta go with Triple H. You can almost feel the ego of the guys swirling after the Micheals matches : « Hey ! I fucking want MY FUCKING EPIC with Taker ». Triple H is a guy who’s entire stint has been something of a fabricated legend, he was never the big star like Austin & The Rock were but he got something more : the actual power. And there’s something almost meta about this one is that possibly, Triple H could break the Streak *in reality*, which is part of what made the appeal of the match. And as it’s been demonstrated two years before, now it’s all about signs for the sake of signs, they don’t have to build any rivalry or angle or storytelling, because looking at the Mania Sign is enough for them (the ultimate goal is that it should be enough for anybody, but alas it doesn’t really work that way, although maybe it kinda does actually considering how huge Mania got despite WWE’s dwindling popularity). And also since we’re in mythical times, we get monstrous production with Metallica’s For Whom the Bell Tolls almost as a little trick, as it could have been Taker using it. But of course it’s Triple H disguised as some kind of highlander warlord with an army of soldiers with giant shields. BTW, they talked in the leading up promos about being the last two outlaws in the land, in a very western-like scene, which is completely outrageous considering there’s nothing more *in the system* that Triple H and Taker (whom despite his gimmick, is as much of an « outlaw » here as he was a « satanic figure » against the « angelic » Micheals : each times they are nothing but two opposite Kings on the same chess game, which is the Mania brand). And of course you get maybe the most striking Taker’s intro ever as they use Johnny Cash’s « Ain’t No Grave » instead of Taker’s music. Which not only is really cool and all, but also means the match has actually already started by that very point (although we don’t know this yet). Because like I said, there was a confession of helpnessness in all of this : they can’t follow the Micheals matches but they want to reach mythical epicness. So what to do ? Drama. Full on drama. Which is why they use the no-hold-barred stip which basically makes it clear that it’s gonna be bells and whistles, tables and chairs and gimmick and shit. And it also allows Triple H, who’s not the most spectacular worker out there, to be able to do spectacular things. I mean, about thirty seconds in the match and they already are outside bumping into some plastic walls around what I guess was Micheal Coles’s announcing spot (which really looks like a regular anti-COVID announcer's desk today !), and rearranging furnitures on the tables like it’s 1999. Kinda abrupt. And they actually tease finishers on tables too already, with Trip doing this huge bump off a back-bodydrop, off the table to the floor. Taker will also re-do his infamous plancha, this time hitting it clean. And then later he gets reversed into a belly-to-belly suplex on a table. So very quickly, they fall into this super slow and looooong selling of the first Micheals match, with them doing nothing in-between spots, so the TV audience can rewatch, sometime several times, the spot that just happened, which is a way to fill the time with fake action because it’s just a duplication. There’s no other way to say it, this match gets super heavy handed from there, as they do basically nothing but spamming finishers, sometimes countered but very quickly hit and kicked out of, like the first pedigree which comes from seemingly nowhere and way too soon, followed by a Last Ride and even a Tombstone. And in-between, long, loooong period of nothing happening. And yes indeed, the crowd does react to it, but for me it doesn’t do it even as far as credible near-falls : after the first pedigree gets kicked out of, you know Taker ain’t gonna beat Triple H with his own finishers either. But what they are aiming for is DRAMA, which is why they have to do this. What really matters is the *third* pedigree because by that point, there’s this feeling of « uh oh, is Trip gonna actually DO THIS ? » again in a very meta way to me. So yeah, that one works out of the legit fear of something you don’t want to happen actually happening aka the favorite son-in-law feeding his fragile ego. It’s really Snail Pace City though and Taker has never looked so slow, as apart from the insane plancha he hasn’t done any of his quick offensive flurry (he however did do his flying clothesline which really looks odd now, more like a complete flip above his opponent), because drama apparently has to be slow and heavy. Heavy handed especially, as Trip now bashes Taker repeatedly with a chair and does the « stay down ! die already ! » routine ! Trip wants his Micheals-like drama, and the story is pretty clear now : Triple H is stronger than Taker (lulz), but nothing he can do can « keep his body down », as Johnny Cash sings. Ok, so that’s where they are going. The apex of the match, after Taker as been so destroyed with chair shots that he can’t even sit up anymore, is Trip doing the impossible (I mean, who else, right ?) by putting Taker into his own Tombstone (get it ?) for what is, and I have to recognize, an *awesome* false finish, this one was almost worth the long and slow journey. This lead to the finish of Triple H going for the old sledgehammer only to get caught in Taker’s Hell’s Gate, for which he doesn’t have to stand up, and as Trip is going to hit Taker while in the hold, he finally opens his grasp as the hammer lands on the floor. And Trip taps out. And so the Johnny Cash song plays again « There ain’t nothing that will hold my body down ». So, it’s really a different kind of match, and as it is going on I can’t say I’m a big fan of what’s happening as the almost desperate lack of dynamic (they spend sooo much time doing nothing after hitting a big spot, yes, I just said that selling can equal to nothing and therefore be a detriment) makes it kinda tedious for a while (the crowd doesn’t have the sustained heat it did for the first Micheals match either). That being said, they obviously were working toward a specific goal and in the end they managed to have this one epic masterful false finish before the logical and satisfying end, so yeah, it did work overall. But does the end goal justify the heavy handedness of most of the match ? I’m not sure, as I actually did not enjoy a lot of the match itself. As far as the Myth goes, it’s the first time Taker did not walk back on his own power and was carried away, so there was definitely this sense of drama, almost a tragic ending to it despite the win. Maybe it should have stopped right there, or maybe someone should have beat Taker the following year. Quite the *spectacle* indeed, although as an actual pro-wrestling match, it doesn’t measure up to any of the last four previous years. But they were aiming for something else and in the end, succeeded. 10-9

These are indeed fascinating times... As far as the NWA goes, what is the NWA today ? Most of the talents who appeared on Powerr are gone, the good and interesting ones at least. Please, keep Aaron Stevens as far as possible from an AEW or IMPACT ring, thank you very much. Thunder Rosa is pretty much identified as AEW anyway, the day her contract runs up she should sign immediately after the time they put into her. Really, I see no one but Aldis & Kamille being of any interest to work AEW (I'm not into Tim Storm at all, sorry). BTW, the more things evolve, the more ROH looks like a promotion that got its death sentence at the MSG show in 2019. As far as erasing the stuff from Youtube, yeah, it's a pretty bad move and also comes off a bit petty. People enjoyed watching it because it was free and easy to access. Also, one part of the charm, for better or worse, of Powerr was its studio setting and "old-scool" cosplay atmosphere with guys interacting more freely with the crowds during promos. Same stuff in an empty studio... not seeing it appealing to those who liked the first two seasons. Paying for this ? Nope.

"I came, I saw, I got my ass kicked." Paul Levesque. 2021. I wonder if Trip is now gonna be like, "This was a semi-marathon not a sprint" or something now... Which they have already run on TV or something a few months ago, as I remember that week IMPACT showed extracts of the TNA match in their IMPACT+ flashback of a week, in a very snarky way. For years we've heard about this really good Bobby Lashley stint in TNA (which I haven't seen) and I believe the Drew match was one of the pimped ones, and now it seems this is gonna be a Mania title match 5 years later ? Not exactly ahead of the curve, uh... Well, I guess it's good they did not go for Randy Orton vs Edge, which is a main event from 10 years ago. Wait, from last year, I stand corrected...

Let's not forget the "giant" gimmick was much easier to book when guys weren't on national TV every week and there was not nearly the same access to footage from elsewhere. The mystique is easier to attain when a guy shows up three times a year in a territory than when you're an a weekly TV show where you have to work competitive matches all the time because the audience is just not gonna stay interested in a tall guy squashing people for very long.

Sting has always been credited on being game as hell with Vader. As far as WWF goes, Cactus obviously could have renewed his feud and have some terrific matches. Dustin if he had not been so out of shape and working a stupid gimmick. Austin & Bret worked really well with him and could have had some great matches if the opportunity was there. Of course his pal 2 Cold, who was reduced to a JTTS in no time despite being given a great production (what else is new ?). They could have had a long term feud with Shamrock, instead of having the later work "Loser eat dog food" match with the Bulldog and made to be "just another guy" in the span of a few months (what else is new ?). Taker to some degree but I guess the big guy lamenting the fact there aren't tough guys in pro-wrestling anymore wasn't as tough as this bodybuilder surfer guy, who would have guessed ? Shawn, if he wasn't such an unprofessional douchebag.

Just before he entered WWF, and while he was already super banged up and injured, he had that killer match with Inoki at the Dome. As soon as he left WWF, where he was deemed a "fat piece of shit" and ended up doing jobs for Mark Henry and Kane, he had killer matches with every one of the AJ main event crew. That's pretty telling if you ask me... WWF just did not get what Vader was at all.

Warrior in WCW was the Fiend already, appearing in mirrors and stuff...

Agreed. Luck is 90% of success anyway.

One thing interesting is the way Netflix and other streaming platform have basically changed the way episodic series are written because of the "binge watching" culture, which is all episodes being available from the beginning. It not only changed the way people watch the shows ie when they want and as much episode as they want in one sitting, but also the way they are written, with less emphasis on huge cliffhangers since there will be no wait needed anyway between two episodes and also and most of all stories spread out on a 10 episodes shows like it was an 8 hours movie instead of a true episodic TV show. Which also means a lot of fillers in the stories because what matters the most is just putting out a lot of "content" on the streaming services. With its week-to-week format, pro-wrestling definitely belongs to the previous era of TV show format, with his pros (the common experience shared by a community at the same time) and cons (the fact younger audience may not be driven to watch such a product, especially since the content they watch on Twitch for live sessions for instance got that interaction aspect with the live chat that a TV show doesn't really have, and no, Twitter doesn't count because it's actually the polar opposite of a live communal chat). The Network oriented WWE already is in the process of just producing random "content" honestly, since what they put on PPV doesn't matter anymore in term of their revenue.

It's funny because South Park really has shown this evolution, with BOTH "sides" being discontent with it. Which I guess is every libertarians dream (I believe both of them defines themselves as libertarians).

Yes, 93-96 sounds right. Even at the beginning, they paired him with Brian Christopher (who had his own qualities, working lucharesu to get over something comparable to the WCW cruiserweight division not being one of them) and had Lawler make a bunch of racist jokes and denied he was the father of Brian so all the focus was on his son and not TAKA. Then he was working with random luchadors with no heat of built with Sunny doing the ring announcing because you know this light heavyweight shit was not gonna get over so might as well display some T&A, and then when Kaientai showed up, like you said, just godawful shit. What a waste.

Yeah, that's right. It was just insane the way they went to justify that Roman push that very obviously their audience did not want. I know it's more of a topic for the other thread, but what strikes me also is that back then you'd get the argument that TV did not matter because women & children at house shows were cheering Roman (same argument as with Cena), ignoring the fact that house show business had been dwindling down to be a money loser, and the COVID actually helped WWE on that matter. Plus, TV actually is all there is as far as getting the money, so the perception you get from the audience on TV is the reality of the product. Again, COVID has been helping WWE in that the controlled fake crowd noise is everything they needed, there's no way the Fiend bullshit would have gotten over with an actual audience.

BTW, another thing about Cena that is quite interesting, they basically sent him off to pastures by basically telling their audience he was OLD just as he was reaching 40 years old. Which is insanity considering the current landscape and even more in term of the average age of pushed WWE guys.

The bad buzz it would get today (rightfully so, it was so damn stupid) would be something else. Well, it's not like anyone thought it was a good idea then either. Meanwhile, I wonder why I remember all of this and what the hell did I do with my life so that I do remember this ?

See also what I'm saying in the "aging thread" about Cena teaching them the terrible lesson that the audience booing the Ace does not matter... when in fact it does and should be listened to. Of course it's not his responsibility per say, but the fact he dealt so well with it fucked up the process big time because WWE suddenly thought it was ok to push whoever they had chosen and that the audience did not matter and should not been listened to.

Yes, that was later on during the Fuyuki era. Micheals little promotion was working alongside FMW and I think that's the first time I saw Daniel Bryan as American Dragon working the undercard of some FMW shows. I believe Micheals was the special ref for H vs "Hayabusa" (who was Gannosuke) or something. Damn, FMW booked by Fuyuki, some fun memories and some not so fun ones... (Exploding Anus Death Match anyone ? Some FMW guys making appearance on some porn because Chokoball Mukai was trying his hands at pro-wrestling ?)

Yeah, I fogot Liger but really, it seems like the only thing he ever did was have two matches with Pillman over half a decade and then show up for Starrcade 96. WWF totally squandered TAKA Michinoku and Kaientai DX, which were some of the hottest workers anywhere in the world (at least TAKA & Togo were). Talk about completely ruining a bunch of great workers who had already everything going for them, as showed by their ECW matches. The dream matches back then was "what if these guys ended up in WCW instead", working with Rey & Juvy & Eddie...

It seems like most of the discussion here is less about "pro-wrestling" than "WWE", really. AEW hits the right demos for announcers apparently (not that I care one way or another about this, really). Since people like to share anecdotes about their nephews on this board, here's one. My nephews (who are turning 18 and 20 this year), used to be fan of the WWE during the early Cena days and the glorious Cena vs Orton feuds and whatnot. I'm guessing the great announcing on French TV helped. But anyway, they were fans until they actually went to one of the show promoted in France back then. Which ended up being a disappointment of sorts if I understand everything right, and their interests basically vanished at the turn of the last decade and never watched again. To this day still, I see 30 something French millennials referring to John Cena as a pop culture figure, but it's obvious their interests basically ended with him too. There's this idea that Cena was the last big star the WWE produced, but it's also the tree that hid the forest. People who grew up Cena fans did not necessarily became long-time pro-wrestling fans. If the average age of the TV viewer has aged so much, it means the biggest part of the audience is fans from 20 years ago, at least. So, at some point maybe it'll be time to re-contextualize Cena's importance for the company, because unlike the big stars of the previous generations (Hogan then Austin/Rock), it doesn't seem like the Cena era was really successful at hooking its audience long term. Plus, Cena taught WWE a terrible lesson because he was so good at dealing with boos, it's that what the audience told them did not matter, hence the Roman Drama and troll booking from the mid 10's and on. The fact Edge, who was a star from the Cena era, really did not pop the ratings in any consistent way speaks more about that period in particular than Edge himself. Sure, Batista would probably pop the ratings, but that has everything to do about his Hollywood career. We often asked ourselves what was next for Mania when WWE would be done with the guys from the late 90's ? Well, here we are, now they are bringing back a guy from the late 00's (as far as his main-event status went), and it does not work quite as good, in a context that has been worse and worse each and every year...