El-P

At this point, it's almost as if he's working a heel gimmick. The audacity ! I have no doubt many will take their pictures and be all proud because they are "rebels".

You know he would have used the Orient Express music theme. You know it.

So, no women Elimination Chamber this year ? What's up with that ?

Tenryu was in not one but two Royal Rumble. I remember a Tenryu vs Kimchee (I guess Brooklyn Brawler) match actually too in 1993. Little did I knew then...

Nope, I don't do that. Sorry. I'm not mad. I don't give a fuck. And really, you've made nothing but terrible points. You accuse me of stating opinions as facts then say shit like "1978 was not a great year for punk rock anyway" or "THAT IS modern wrestling", which is the picture perfect occurence of opinion stated as fact. When confronted about your bullshit (me "stanning Omega" when he was barely if at all part of the ongoing discussion), you very conveniently no-sell because, fuck, why apologize when you say stuff that isn't true, right ? I mean, watch me stan Omega when I *actually* do it... Can we put this to rest now ? I mean, it's as boring as Corny talking about modern pro-wrestling. Still, if there's some irony somewhere, is that for years and years I was a Corny fan and defender when he did not have a crowd of followers. Yeah, this is irony, because over the years I've agreed with Corny a lot. Comes a point in time where his and my opinions on current pro-wrestling just went on totally opposite directions, the fact he can't keep himself from using racist, homophobic and sexist shit in his rants lately basically drives the point home that no, the right quote would not be "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole", it would rather be "It doesn't matter if you're wrong or right anymore, you're just an asshole."

That's rich coming from you. I just made a joke and you choose to respond to this with long-ass reply to a *joke* with a long-ass post in 4 points which basically was "ohhh the irony". That's always a good start for a "decent conversation", yeah.... That Laz passive-agressive reply to my joke about "pro-wrestling not being very punk rock" was lame as fuck, basically. I mean, there was really nothing to debate or talk about, it was just... a joke... like, I wasn't saying anything serious there. I have no idea why this needed a long-ass put-down response which included the FACT that 1978 actually ISN'T THE BEST YEAR for punk-rock... Ok. Cool.

No. Because the fact that I'm referencing something from 40 years ago has nothing to do with the notion that I would think something from 40 years ago would be inherently better than what happens today. It would have been ironic if I referenced something from 40 years ago as the golden age or something. Plus, I don't picture Corny as a guy who would be pissed for instance by the rise of the bubblegum-bass scene in the 10's (to talk about something I do care about and have listened to a lot and followed closely), I think it's a pretty safe bet he has never even heard the word... Pro-wrestling is always way behind the times in term of pop culture relevance (yeah, Bad Bunny, I know...), so really, dad rock vs punk really came naturally as a joke. That's about it.

Wow, this is a blast from the past. I haven't heard much less thought of that name in... like, another life it seems.

Yes, it's showed in the pre-match video, and he really comes off as a full fledge heel all along, including the swerve angle with Daddy Bob Jr.

I don't see what's the issue with her. I really don't. She seems really charismatic. As a worker, this match was pretty good, nothing special but still much better than some girl on weekly US TV for sure. BTW, it was cool to see Aja kick someone in the gut again. She is kinda immobile, but she can still throw a mean kick and drop that elbow.

Chapter 6 : Who can beat the Streak ? WrestleMania 21 (2005) – Undertaker vs Randy Orton The most interesting thing about this match is that the legendary status of Taker, and Taker being undefeated at Mania, is the focus of the angle with Legend Killer Orton. So in essence, this match is the very first where it’s clearly all about beating the Streak. Classic entrance with druids, torch and gregorian chants, Taker now has this makeup all around his eyes, does the revulsed eyes thingy after he removes his hat to the sound of thunder, the whole presentation is now pretty much fixed until the end, with only minor changes. Orton dressed in just short tights and boots, sporting tribal tattoos, coming down the ramp to the sound of generic as fuck alternative metal sound, not exactly oozing charisma : he's the picture boy for 00's WWE aesthetics. There’s something to be said about his offense, he’s deeply rooted in the 80’s/early 90’s style : back body-drop, dropkicks, using a sleeper countered into a side-suplex (like he’s Jeff Jarrett in WCW) and even much later in the match doing the whole punching the guy in the face while standing on the corner as the crowd counts, which btw is mostly typical babyface style stuff. Hell, at some point Taker has him in a dragon sleeper (yeah, wtf ?) and they do the old bit of lifting the hand twice before he breaks the hold. Again, total babyface 80’s shit. So, as far as psychology goes, it’s pretty bad when he's supposed to be this heel Legend Killer, supposed to be a legit threat to the biggest unbeatable legend at Mania... and he's basically working like Sam Houston on the undercard of a JCP house show. They sure work a lot of pinfall attempts including early ones, but nothing Orton does has any urgency not brutality to it. He’s just doing « ok » old-school pro-wrestling, and by « ok » I mean his execution is not even that great. Bad ring-placement to bump off the rope-walk and very vanilla bumping in general (the corner bumps in particular look really soft and not crisp), nothing interesting in term of actual offense. Meanwhile, Taker does his whole bit, which now include some of Kevin Nash's spots like the damn Snake Eyes, the classic quick punching sequence and usual middle-match spots like the legdrop on the apron while the guy is halfway outside the ring. Occasionally Orton displays some decent reactive spots, but it’s really, really not compelling nor interesting at all and like I said before, the guys doesn’t ooze charisma, it’s really hard to look at him then and think he had been a world champ already. When he acts all shocked that he did not break the all-mighty Streak with a *powerslam*, that’s just plain lame... The ending basically is a retread of the Flair match, with Daddy Orton doing the cast shot after a ref bump for the one big nearfall, bigger than the RKO which came earlier from a chokeslam counter, basically the one big Orton spot of the match, once again demonstrating he was a total one-move wonder. The Orton Jr. Spot came after a totally screwed up Last Ride fail/counter (no idea if they just fucked up the spot or fucked up what was supposed to be a counter but it looked quite shitty), so ironically that’s also kinda like in the Flair match. Tombstone reversal spot for the win, Randy really never looked in danger of doing anything to Taker, he came off « ok » at best while Taker was carrying the heavy load in term of dynamics and spots. Not a bad match, the finish worked very well for a crowd who really wasn’t very much into it before the RKO. Pretty good but nothing special, kinda dull. Yeah, so, a Randy Orton match apparently. 5-8

Speaking of which, sort of, Mox is now gonna face Josh Barnett at Bloodsport on Mania week-end. So, it feels weird but it feels good too.

"Greed id good". WWE business practice is fascinating (and repulsive) to watch because it's über-capitalism in a nutshell.

Fuck me, I barely even mentioned Kenny Omega the last three pages of this thread, it was all about Cornette being an old jerk, difference of generations and spots that should be used or not in relations to their character/gimmick (stemming from the Matt Jackson's discussion). So.. hum... really now ? As far as fact goes, his success both in Japan and now the US is not an opinion, his role in the creation of AEW is not an opinion. When Corny say stupid stuff like "Booo Kenny and the Bucks are killing the business, they aren't stars, they will never be successfull, AEW is an outlaw mud show that is not successful", you have nothing else to do but state facts. I know some people are in such denial mode that they'll go to Mars and back to not recognize those simple facts, but...

Yes, kinda, because Laz thought it was sooo ironic that I would use some 43 year old reference (and not a good one either, because 1978 is not even the best year for punk rock and that is apparently a fact and not an opinion, see) to make fun of Cornette being stuck in the past, yet one has nothing to do with the other since I don't care about punk rock so I don't defer to something that was 43 years ago as being inherently better like Cornette does (no, I don't mean specifically 43 years ago). So yeah, maybe it's not "ironic" (well, kinda still), it was just a dumb way to try and point out "irony" where there was really none. Like I say, wanna point out irony about my little joke about pro-wrestling and punk rock, just mention that punk rock was basically a "back to the roots" movement, which in a way, is reactionary (whereas post-punk wasn't). Like Cornette.

Stuff I got out of this week's episode : 1/ I forgot how fucking good Riho was, as that match with Deeb (such a joy to watch) was dope 2/ Kenny Omega is the WWE champion 3/ Neck injuries have been cured all over the map. 4/ Maybe by the time I'm 70, if I live that long, Brandy & Cody's daughter will win the AEW Women's title at Revolution for the first time and I'll remember this moment, while the same year, Charlotte will headline WrestleMania against Bailey & some girl from NXT Emirates (as the show will air from Abou Dabi) and win her 775th WWE women's title. 5/ AEW is running a 4/4 Kawasaki Stadium no-rope-explosive-barb-wire death-match in 2021 and the old Onita fan in me just lost his mind

Thanks. I'm pretty tired also, so I have no doubt my ranting got confusing. Yes, we probably do agree more than we disagree. And really, re-reading my first post, yeah, it was bad judgement on my part, I should actually have made another thread and started with "This talk about Matt Jackson in the Cornette thread made me think about the issue of doing spots "oustide" the realm of you character/gimmick" or something. It's just me being both lazy and impulsive.

Again, the talk about Matt Jackson doing that spot which seems to bother some people on this thread just made me react and talk about a bunch of stuff I had in my head. I probably should not have quoted you specifically, as you took it as I was replying strictly to what *you* said (and even personal attacks, which really were the furthest thing from my mind, I mean why would I do that ?), when really like I said it was much more broader thoughts on the matter. Sorry about that.

I will never defend you for pimping Demolition so hard in the past. NEVER.

No. I just disagree with the idea that X doing Y is inherently wrong because it "wouldn't fit his character". If it's done well, if it works as part of the flux of a match, and if it's fun to watch to boot, have at it. Matt Jackson doing his nothern light double suplex never bothered me in the slighest, and why should it. One thing that bothers me every time however for instance, is a spot you force on an opponent who would never do it otherwise because you want to counter/bump off it aka "You Can't Powerbomb Kidman" (also know as "I'm Ric Flair, gorilla press slam me please !").

I know it was, but still, there is a moral judgement here because for you, it did harm the quality of the matches (that is up for debate or simply taste, but there you go). Therefore it was *bad*, but not *bad* from an execution standpoint (something you don't seem to care about as much as I do), bad because, as you or someone else put it, it was "vanity" work from Michaels.

Understood, and I agree above these above points. If he does power moves, he's *actually* presented as being able to do them. I mean, to me it's as simple as that. For instance, when Okada tried and tried and tried to get his damn Cobra Clutch over during last G1 and it was obvious it killed the pace of the matches and the crowd did not go along, to me that was a mistake. Matt has done those nothern lights forever, they're part of his repertoire, to me it does look pretty good and is a fun spot... I mean, at some point, the spots define the worker (or as you'd put it, the character/gimmick), not the other way around. If you *actually* can't do jackshit, your best shot is to be a no-selling monster. Which is why the whole "he plays his role well" argument never flew with me, to me it was a defense of mediocre or even crappy workers who did not do much at all because, well, they just weren't very good otherwise.

I don't agree and I explained why. Assigning a worker to a reducive view of what he's "supposed" to do based on a gimmick/character is a dated view to me (BTW, it's also true of gimmick matches). Plus it really never worked that way as soon as you get into "great workers" territory. Like for instance, the idea that the heels are not the ones who should do the most exciting moves and that those should be reserved for the babyfaces, which is something I heard a billion times. Reality is, if you take for instance the most classic tag team US feud ever, which is used basically as the greatest staple for how "tag team wrestling should be worked", the MX vs Rock'n'Roll Express, well, the fact is the MX had by far the flashiest, most impressive and awe-inducing offense of the two teams, mostly thanks to Bobby Eaton, who was outworking every babyface he ever met, including Ricky Morton, in term of doing cool moves and spots. Again, broader statement about pro-wrestling in general.

I took your comment and from there made broader statements about pro-wrestling in general. It had nothing to do with you personally. The "moral" values comment stems from @Matt D talking earlier in the thread about Shawn Micheals using his pro-wrestling understandings for "evil" reasons, which is, infact, a moral judgment.

I love when Meltz and Alvarez just debate in the most matter-of-fact-ish, deadpan way ever of the most absurd things, like when they were talking about that 1000 years old woman in NXT, with Meltz going on about it's surprising because they usually go toward the youth factor for women, Alvarez not believing anyone could actually live that long and Meltz replying that "Mathusalem was about 900 years old but I always thought it was a work", without even blinking or sounding remotely amused about what they are discussing. Deadpan Meltzer can be really funny as hell.