El-P

Having a good match with DDP in 1998 doesn't make you great. DDP had a good match with Goldberg, who was a poor worker. Luger had two very good matches with Bret in 1998, in which he worked hard and looked good, which were better than anything Sting did that year. Sting was solid. Sting worked hard at times. I've never seen a great Sting performance, much less a great or excellent match in which he was the better worker. I honestly doubt Sting was ever better than Luger was in 89, and I wouldn't call Luger a great wrestler by any stretch of the imagination. Since you menion Jarrett, I would put him way above Sting as a worker without thnking twice about it. And Jarrett isn't what I'd call a great worker either. That said, Jarrett I would put above Malenko without much hesitation too.

I don't even see why Sting would get a nomination. He was game against Vader, but he was never that good of a worker to begin with. Really, a guy like Davey Boy Smith was a much better worker, had about as much great matches as Sting did, and his name wouldn't even scratch my mind in a "top ten of the 90's" discussions. Sting was a fine piece of luggage against superior workers like Vader, Rude, Flair, and that's it to me. 60 year old Inoki had a better match than Sting ever did against Vader (and injured, banged up Vader to boot). Big Bubba had arguably just as good matches with Vader than Sting did. The Flair matches in the 90's weren't exactly great either. I never got the hype about Steiners vs Sting/Luger, to me it's a good spotfest, and that's about it. Sting vs Regal was fine until Sting decided to no-sell from nowhere and beat Regal in two minutes after getting stretched forever. Not a very good match overall. At best Sting was a game worker who could be carried to a great matches by great workers. Kinda like the Bulldog, in a lesser way. Sean Waltman in an interesting name I forgot about. Better candidate than Malenko, Psicosis. A few great matches, lots of good stuff.

To me I don't see you can dethrone Bret. The great matches are there. The longevity is there. The consistency is there. Shawn is overrated, always as been. Not a huge fan of his World title reign. Plenty of workers are ahead of Shawn in my book. Benot should be there somewhere, but I see his New Japan run as muc better as anything he did in the US in term of great matches. Yes, top ten to me. Amazing peak in ECW, and tons of good work before. Hurt by his WWF run, which is a pattern, but Scorp in 96 was untouchable. Some great matches, also tons of cruise control performances, which were good but unspectacular. But overall I think he belongs in the top ten. Awesome in 96/97. Then not quite as good. I'm not sure how his WCW works holds up. His case gets much stronger with 2001, which was an amzing peak year, but or the 90's only, I guess top ten, depending on his WCW work, which I'm not overly familiar with. A few great matches, tons of really good stuff, yeah, Eddie belongs in the top ten. Awesome WCW run until Hogan showed up. Hurt by his WWF run, althoughhe did have his share of excellent stuf there also. Yeah, top ten material. From 1990 to 1992, not doubt in the top 10. Then, no so much, with the occasionnal excellent stuff and also the regular "Flair old match" stuff. Now way. Way overrated. Tons of ECW and WCW stuff doesn't hold up well. Wrestling in a vacuum too many times. Great but short peak in WCW. Case gets much stronger with the lucha years. Super consistant, but I don't see the great matches. Maybe top ten but no way he gets near the very top. You know what, now that I think of t, Mick truly was terrific for most of the 90's. A few maturbatory stuff, but he had his share of great maches, was very consistant. Yeah, No doubt top ten to me. A few great years in WCW. Kinda like Rey. Being cut short in 1994 hurt his case, but he delivered some of the great singles and tag matches of the decade. Just like Regal, super solid and consistant, but I don't see the great matches. The Ted DiBiase of the 90's. Excellent first few years in WCW, not sure the Blondes holds up well in terms of matches. After the injury a wasn't the same. Case gets much stronger with 1989, but for the 90's only, not so sure. Nah. Didn't get to shine as much in WCW as Rey or Juvy, only because of his push. Just like Rey, he might ave a case. He was sloppy at times though. Better case with the lucha years. Call me crazy, but after my ECW watch, I think I'd have no issue putting him in y top ten. Works hold up much better than tons of "solid wrestlers" that have been pimped as great like Dean, the guy elvoved with the times, adding and substracting stuff from his moveset, involved in tons of great matches, was consistant as hell. Maybe those guys back in 1994 were right after all, Sabu was all kind of fascinating. Hurt by his WWF stint. Not familiar with the SMW years. A few great tag matches in WCW. Solid, but would be more like an Arn or Regal to me. Yep, Whipreck getting close or even top ten I have no issue with. Was pretty much awesome in his role in 1994 and developped into a solid worker. Rough around the edges, but it fit ECW style. Tons of super matches under his belt, reinvented himself after his failed WCW run. I like him a lot too, but he would be like Arn or Regal in that I don't see the great matches. As far as consistency though, the guy was awesome. Interesting case which gets much stronger with FMW thrown in. On his US work alone, not quite sure, although he would be a better case than Flair to me. I guess hat's entirely based on Memphis, which I've seen nothing off from the 90's. Except from the great SummerSlam 93 angle/match, his WWF work was rotten, with clown midgets, and kiss my foot matches. Another interesting case. Not sure how his WCW work holds up, but he had a few great matches, and lots of solid one. I would put him with Arn and Regal easily. I would add : Shane Douglas : awesome peak from 1994/1996, when he was in my top 3 or 4 workers in the US, solid early WCW stuff including some great tag matches. Hurt by his WWF stint, had solid stuff in ECW post peak too. Top ten material to me without a doubt Chris Candido : Not overly familiar with his SMW stuff, although I've seen a few, bu he's a much better candidate for top ten than guys like Malenko or Psicosis. Super consistent, made the most out of not so great angles in WWF. Kinda lacks the really great matches, bu I don't think he was ever put in that position either. Carried Lance Storm for a while. Yeah probably top ten to me.

That's it, after being tolerable the first weeks months, the Fabulous Freebirds are officially going into my shitlist. By early 1990, they were unbearable. They totally kill the life out of their matches against Zenk & Pillman at WrestleWar. They don't do shit and still botch spots, restholds galore, I swear they must have gone through 10 pure resthold sequences in that match, don't have any offense, don't bump well, Garvin being the worst of the two. Didn't take long before they got on my nerves.

Not true. He would have been the greatest booker in the history of our sport.

No wonder legit workers think those indy guys are just a bunch of marks. Jeez.

Great idea. I don't think I've seen a decisive timeline of the WCW bookers before.

I don't remember hearing Martel first quiting because of injuries. I know he was involved in real estate as soon as the early 90's, and he was only doing wrestling at this point as a support for his other business. His WCW was cut short because Harlem Heat are poor workers. Got a concussion from Booker T. Then fucked his knee because of Booker T again. Then a few months later after surgery, first match back against Stevie Ray, he tries to protect his brand new knee and got fucked again by Ray's finisher. Then called it quit. But yeah, Martel was smart. Guys quiting when they should have include DiBiase, Santana, Rotundo, Windham... In the 00's, JBL comes to mind.

Dave's report was a gross overstatement. That said, Kobashi looked like he could barely do three steps at a time. Looks totally shot. Looks like a guy who need to retire yesterday and nurse his poor body for the rest of his life. Mutoh is a mystery to me. The guy stopped aging 8 years ago. How can a 48 year old guy with no knee move so quick and do those explosive spots ? 10 years ago if you had told me that by 2010, Misawa and Hash would be dead, Kobashi would be a walking zombi while Mutoh would still do his old spots without missing a beat nor looking awkward, I would not have believed you.

Retards.

Konnan is still one of the very worst wrestler I've ever seen. When you can't have a decent match with Juvy and Eddie in 96/97, you really are a worthless worker. Yep. Until your heart explode, which is something I'm surprised didn't happen to Vince yet. Exactly. Flair isn't better than those guys. He's just "Flair", so he gets to embarrass himself on TV for a reasonnable paycheck instead of looking like an old bozo on scrappy indies. Seriously, I don't even get why people would pay to see the HTM "work". That's a terrible analogy. Wrestling, despite what some may think those days, is still a "sport". Unless your voice is gone, you can sing until your death. I've seen the latest Nanni Moretti movie, "Habemus Papam" the other day, and Michel Picolli, 85, is an amazing actor. Old bluesmen can play until they lose their mind. Wrestling is still a sporting acivity, and at some point the body just isn't able to do it anymore. I don't care about psychology and such, when you are old and shot, psychology only goes a long way, you still look like an old dude slowly mimicking what you were doing before. 1/He's a mark for "Ric Flair" 2/People who book him, in that case TNA, are retards

Incredible, I wouldn't say that. Good, yes. Which Sabu & Douglas matches exactly ?

You mean as Cactus Jack, because Onita wasn't at all about falling from high places. I haven't seen any of Flair's garbage matches, but I don't feel like I would enjoy them in the least. Terry Funk was a strange beast. The on/off nature of his stints sure helps. To me he looked really good until 1995. When he came back in 1997 in ECW, he was showing his age. I'm a Terry Funk mark, and I enjoyed pretty much everything I saw from him past that point, including the WCW stint, but Terry retiring in late 1995 would have been fine with me.

Some really fine work there indeed. Love Earthquake, Sherri, Big Boss Man. Kerry is goofy as hell, but it suits him. Yokozuna is quite great. But The Sheik is AWESOME.

Some would say it was a good ten year overdue at this point. To me Flair already looked sad during the infamous "great" match with Taker. I've seen several big WWE match, and Flair was just old and a sad shelf of his already old self of the mid-90's. I would have been fine with Flair retiring after WCW went down. Quite frankly, I would have been glad to see him go to WWF in 98, have this big feud with Austin and retire. That would have been perfect. Instead we got crazy-ass Flair going to the nuthouse, Asya and Little Naich (well, that was actually entertaining). Some would have been fine with Flair retiring after the 1996 run. Some would have been fine with Flair retiring after his WWF stint, as he wasn't the same when he came back in 1993. 2008 was awfully late for Flair to retire. But in retrospect, as sad as he looked during his WWE stint, it's nothing compared to what he's showed last week. He was dying out there. I morbidly can't wait for Hogan vs Sting...

Rock'n Roll Express vs Ric Flair & Arn Anderson (Main Event 1990.02.18) Fuck editing. Seriously. This match was so great at first. Flair & Arn just bumped their ass off for Ricky & Robert, just two little bitches. The crowd ate it. You can argue it made them look weak, but I don't think it's the case. That was Flair & Arn, they can do that and still keep credibility when they finally kick Ricky's ass. But that doesn't come before a while, you feel they really want to give the audience some fun times. Finally they get on control, and it's as good as Arn and Flair can make it in 1990 against Ricky Morton. Then something odd happens, Morton makes a no-sell comeback routine. Yeah, makes me look like an idiot; or maybe it's because of Flair who's just demanding that from anyone he works for, be it Luger or Morton, another Flair stample you can knock him for. But that's not the odd thing, the odd thing is that they cut to the crowd, and when they get back Ricky is still there but Flair is obviously bleeding. 30 seconds later, they go into the finish without a hot tag. Yep. I guess it happened because Flair bladed, and there was a no-blood policy on TV, but it ruined the ending of what was an excellent match until then.

I love the moment during the Luger interview where the Horsemen come out and Flair trips on the steps coming into the ring. Flair covered by selling his humiliation! The crowd pops huge for that and Luger even has trouble keeping a straight face. You remember every detail. Yeah, that was a funny one. Flair selling it made it great. That would have worked pretty well. What was the deal with Doc ? I guess they only wanted to feed him to Luger, I don't see Doc getting the US title while working in Japan for both companies at the same time. The thing is, the babyface front wasn't exactly loaded on top. You had Sting as clear N°1, then Doc as N°2 probably, and then it was down to Pillman. The company was really structured around tag teams at this point, the Steiners being directly under Sting as the N°2 babyfaces, much more than Doc was, equally with the Road Warriors maybe, who were becomig stale by that point. Then you had the Dynamic Dudes and Rock'n Roll Express coming back to fill the undercard. I don't get what the need was to put Z Man & Pillman together, especially since Pillman was over already in single. Maybe it was a way to give some rub to Zenk, but although they were a pretty good team, Zenk looked like Pillman's albatros. I agree with Dylan, Pillman should have been much bigger than he was as a babyface, he had *it*, the work, the good matches, the connection with the fans. It was so out of the blue too. You had Woman making advances to Flair the weeks prior to Clash, and it looked like they were going in the direction of "Will Flair turn to be with Woman", but all of a sudden at the Clash, the Horsemen turn on Sting, next thing you know Woman is with them on TV, and that's it. What ?

Well, he oughta be, being younger than these guys and having stopped working 11 years ago. Still, Bret these days looks pretty sad for a guy his age.

Can't agree more. I'm watching WCW TV from early 90 right now, and listening to Cornette cut promos during squashes on a week-to-week basis is just super impressive. I can't honestly think of anyone better on the mic at this point.

Vince is a very nutty businesman. Inoki is insane.

Yeah, that's the story I recall as well. Thanks for the clarification. I remember hearing the same story now that you mention it. Agree with Will on All Japan old policy about older wrestlers doing comedy matches. It was a nice way to still feature the legends/guys from the previous generations, although it could be painfull to watch at times. I'm not sure I would want to see Flair work comedy matches undercard until he gets to liquid state. Well, one could argue Flair did work comedy matches for a whole decade now... Major injuries or concussions are the main reasons wrestler retire before it's getting pathetic. Guys like Steamboat or Rude we always keep a nice picture of them because we never saw them oer the hill. Hell, Steamboat made a successful comeback at 50 past. Other times, getting back in the ring is just a terrible idea : cf Bret Hart, just sad to watch him not able to do anything.

WCW 1990.02.17 Great episode. A few fillers including a fun squash from the new team of Kevin Sullivan & Cactus Jack, and Doug Furnas gettinga win over perennial JTTS Jacko Victory, now part of teh Royal Family and managed by Lord Littlebrook no less. Plus a very good Rock'n Roll Express vs MX match with Terry Funk on commentary, which was quite fun. But the show featured some great angles and matches destined to put over the 4 Horsemen as ruthless brutes taking over WCW : _Brian Pillman had challenged Ric Flair the week before, and Flair confronts him. A non scheduled match is booked for the show. _After a Steiner squash, their interview is interrupted by the Andersons, who ask them to not show up at Wrestle War, or they'll get the same treatment as Sting did. The Anderson cheap shot the Steiners, and Arn DDT's Scott on the floor _Interview from Sting at the hospital. Got busted good by the Horsemen and could be out for 6 months to a year. He says he wants to come back before that. _Arn Anderson vs Shane Douglas for the TV title : really good match, with Arn destroying Douglas's left arm after he let him shine for a while. Douglas's selling was fantastic, and finally the referee stops the match before Shane gets his arm broken down. Ole distract the referee after the end of the match so that Arn can still torture Shane, before the Steiner make the save. _Ric Flair vs Brian Pillman : excellent match, Pillman was on fire at the time. Flair was back to the total heel Flair structure, but still busted out some cool suplexes like the butterfly, and actually dove from the top rope (got punched in the gut for it, but still). Stiff chops from left and right. Woman, who looked ridiculously hot, missed Pillman as she was supposed to slap him to break a 3 count, and Pillman didn't sell his leg after the figure four spot, but outside of that, just a super solid match. Pillman really looked like the next big thing on the babyface front. Hum... too bad he was settled with Z Man at the same time, he was ready to get some single gold already. _The main angle was the Horsemen threatening Luger so he would walk out of the title match at WW. They gave him one hour to think about it, and Ole was just great in his role. Luger showed up at the end of the show and punched Ole in the nose as an answer, and disposed from teh three Horsemen on the stage. Quite effective face turn after a great heel run in 1989. This was not taped at Center Stage, and the crowd in that town was just red hot, I mean Korakuen 90-like hot.

I'm not there yet. I totally forgot he turned heel again in 91 though. That would makes his third heel stint in 3 years or so, right ? Well, I guess his comeback in 95 made him fresh again, since by 1998, when he was just cruising around with no real aim, the crowd went batshit insane when he joined the Wolfpack.

You should hang it up *before* it's getting pathetic. Which, in the case of Flair or Hogan, was a long long time ago. I had no idea Funk ha to sell his ranch. That's very sad, I thought he was pretty much set and only did wrestling shows because he was batshit crazy.

I was just watching the pre-Wrestle War 1990 shows, and it's interesting as to show how Luger was turned face after Sting's injury. Luger has had a pretty awesome run as a heel with the US title since mid-89, and he was put in the mix of the World Title chase after Starrcade. With Flair turning on Sting and Sting's injury, Luger had to turn face since they had no one else to fit the spot. It's amazing to see how in one segment, Ole turned Luger face again. The Horsemen mugged the Steiners earlier on the same show after Ole demanded them to not appear at Wrestle War. As Luger was the guest of Jim Cornette and he was just beginning his usual "Total Package" heel interview, self-absorbed and arrogant, the Horsemen hit the ring, surround Luger and Ole does his whole "we give you one hour to tell us you won't show up at WW" deal. At the end of the segment, fans were chearing Luger like crazy. He had been a heel twice already I believe, and had a successful run as a babyface against Flair in 88, and fans just immediately got behind him again. One thing impressive about Luger, is how he stayed over consistently with the WCW audience during the whole decade despite turning face and heel a numbers of time, at points to a ridicule degree.