El-P

Totally agree. It's supposed to be an athletic contest, a fight. Shit happens, not everything works like it should, accident occur. Make it a part of your match instead of wanting to "put your shit in". Another great exemple is Gladiator vs Kanemura in 1996 in FMW, Gladiator totally botches a plancha and his knee get stuck between the ropes. Kanemura reacts instantly, takes a chair and hit repetively Gladiator's knee while he's stuck there. It takes a while for him to get out, but then he sells the knee and it's a big part of the story of the match. They turned a blown spot into a big dramatic and dynamic positive. For all the shit Sabu takes, him blowing spots never bothered me because he didn't do it nearly as often as it's been said, plus his spots were supposed to be dangerous and difficult so blowing them was a possibility, and finally I've seen him do the Inoue trick of blowing spots on purpose and using it as variations. Rewatching ECW opened my eye on Sabu, the guy was way better than he's regarded now.

And I think you made a fine point of explaining why you felt the way you did about the Demos, and if I ever got back to watch old WWF it'll certainly be something I'll have in mind.

Wasn't poor or boring. It was usually well timed and calculated to get maximum effect. You've already admitted you have not watched the matches in a long time and have no intention to rewatch them. Come on, don't talk to me like the Demos had some special offense that escaped from my mind for fuck's sake. I've seen countless Demos matches over the last 20 years, enough to consider that their offense was boring, dull and weak looking to me. I don't need to refresh my memory on everything you know. I haven't watched a Mariko Yoshida match in 8 years probably, I don't need to refresh my memory to know how awesome she was at submission and matwork.

Because Arn & Tully, the Harts or the Rockers needs someone to bring structure to their matches. What Demos brought that bring the match down is poor and boring offense. Like I said, the Nasties are worse mechanics, but their recklessness and sloppiness at least produce some aura of actual violence and chaos, whereas the Demos are just blah to me on offense. Not a whole lot more dangerous looking than the Honky Tonk Man except for a few occasional good lariats. The "structure and storytelling" aspect doesn't matter to me if the wrestling kinda suck or is boring and dull. I'd rather have an entertaining goofy spotfest or trainwreck than a well structured boring match with no interesting wrestling (and by wrestling I don't mean "technical wrestling", I also mean good brawling etc...). And the Demos on offense were rather sleep inducing to me.

no,yes,yes,yes,no,no and yes. That's your best post of the thread. (no sarcasm)

They were carried in the sense that the other teams brought the wrestling, the offense and most of the good suff since the Demos were all about weak axhandles and weak punches, and goofy screaming. As far as Demolition calling the match each and every time, I'd have to rewatch them (which I won't) but I doubt the Demos called the match all the time since they were babyfaces in most matches you pimped. Calling the match with the Rockers, no doubt, but thank God the Rockers are the greatest southern tag team working up north, so we get some actual wrestling and excitement. Calling the match with Arn & Tully, well, maybe so, but that means dragging them down in that case. Oh anyway... I'm wondering if the Nasty Boys, although worse workers mechanically than the Demos, weren't much more fun to watch than the Demos actually.

No. Demolition are obviously better than freaking Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard, The Rockers, The Hart Foundation, One Man Gang & Big Bubba, the Rock'n Roll Express, the MX and probably Kawada & Misawa too. And if you don't agree you're a moron. Or something...

I don't see any great matches in the matches you listed. The best of the bunch is the Rocker one, and I would not call it great. Each time they have a good match they are paired with a much superior team. I'll say the word that shouldn't not be said in 2011, they are *carryable*. Not bad by any stretch of the imagination. Not really good either, but paired up with the right team, they are competent enough to deliver good stuff. That's my opinion of the Demos. You're not even trying here, you know I didn't said or even slightly implied that. Dylan and I agree to disagree on many things. You seem to have an issue with anyone not sharing the same opinion as you.

Dunno. Sometimes it's worthy to talk about a match/movie I don't like to think about why it didn't work. And god knows I've seen some terrible movies recently.

Yep, excellent match. Against the Rockers, one of the greatest tag team of all-time. Good but overrated. Against the Hart Foundation, who were really a terrific team despite one half not being that great, but Neidhart just overachieved in big matches sometimes. Haven't seen this one, but the Twin Towers were easily a better team than the Demos in my mind. Interesting to watch, but Arn & Tully really wre fucked by the WWF style of working. This probably wouldn't make a top 30 Arn & Tully match. Haven't seen this specific one, but the match at Mania was just terrible. Poor Andre couldn't do shit and was just sad to watch. Haku worked his ass off and was more credible than both Demos as an ass-kicker. I'll be glad to never sit down before a Colossal Connection match ever again, Andre at this time is just no fun at all and cringe worthy. So yeah, the Demos had a few good matches against some great teams (then again, the Busters matches are just super low in the totem pole or Arn & Tully so that's not exactly a huge positive). That's what decent teams do.

Star rating is goofy as hell, and I don't like it much, but I hate the fail/pass system because it prevents any middle ground.

Yep. Too bad most of the matches were clipped though. Frankly, the Rock'n'Roll even way past their prime in 1998 in WWF were still way too good to be used like they were.

Those are the highlights ? Man...

There was a great match at WM7, and that was Rockers vs Barbie & Haku. It's too bad these two were never pushed seriously together at that time. I gotta say one thing about this thread, it only reminds me how fun tag team wrestling used to be.

The WM 8 match ? Last time I checked it wasn't even a good match with those horrible Nasty Boys restholds control segments and shitty finish.

I can buy it being good. I have trouble buying it being great since the Elims were still a pretty mediocre tag team at very best. Well, I didn't made my cut obviously because I've seen that Queens show. Good for the four people who thought it was great. To me The Nasty Boys have been part of exactly zero high end matches in their career. I know people are going gaga over the Steiner match from 90, but to me it's ridiculously overrated. Ditto the brawls in 94. Can't think of any "pimped as high end matches" the Nasties would be involved in.

Other FBI matches I enjoyed quite a bit : 1997.03.30 (TV) FBI vs Chris Chetti & Spike Dudley (yes, I did enjoy some matches involving Spike Dudley; 1997.05.17 (TV) FBI vs Pitbulls (yes, they got a good match out of the Pitbulls...) 1997.08.21 (TV) FBI vs Chris CHetti & Spike Dudley (again...) 1997.10.18 (TV) FBI vs Gangstanators (okay, not much of a match, rather a squash and a fun angle, but again, the FBI made me watch an entire match involving New Jack) 1997.10.31 (Fan Cam ) FBI vs Mickey Whipreck & Chris Chetti 1997.12.06 (TV) FBI vs Tommy Rogers & Jerry Lynn 1997.12.13 (Fan Cam) FBI vs Chris Candido & Lance Storm (I don't remember if it was as good as the TV match) 1997.12.27 (Fan Cam) FBI vs Tommy Dreamer & Axl Rotten & Balls Mahoney (super fun match, great promos, tons of ga-ga) 1998.03.01 (Living Dangerously) FBI vs Jerry Lynn & Chris Chetti 1998.03.13 (TV) FBI vs Sandman & 2 Cold SCorpio (fun but too short to amont to anything) 1998.05.03 (WrestlePalooza) - 05.14 (TV) FBI vs Blue Meanie & Nova (typical matches between those two teams...) 1998.09.19 FBI vs Tommy Rogers & Chris Chetti (single match between Rogers & Smothers turning into a tag, with the added bonus of JT Smith making his comeback at the end, fun stuff)

Agreed, they have mostly a terrible opposition, and if they had quality opponents they would probably have some legit great matches. Guido would make my top 10 ECW guys. Haven't seen this one. Too bad, as the FBI could probably the Eliminators to something really good. I have zero recollection of this, although I did saw it. Didn't bother saving it to my hard drive, which tells you how much I cared for it. Right, very strong match, maybe my FBI (Smothers version) favourite. It was allright for shits and giggles, but Meanie & Nova really sucks. I don't care about this series that much. The post match was awesome. The match, not so much, but the fact Smothers & Guido made me watch an entire Axl & Balls match without FF is something it itself. Don't think I've seen that one. They were an excellent team, no doubt about that. The issue is bad opposition. We'll never know how they would have fare with quality opponents. The Candido/Storm hints that they would have ruled (and by quality opponent I mean Candido here), but I can't in good conscience put them ahead of teams who did had lots of really excellent matches. Thanks for the Highflyers reviews.

I didn't mean Neidhart wasn't working hard. But Neidhart is the typical case of "good for what he is" or "he's playing his role right", as opposed to "very good worker".

Top ten team (in North America) ? Usual suspects : Rock'n Roll Express : no brainer Fantastics : not as good as the Rock'n'Roll as far as psychology goes, but more advanced action Rockers : the R'n'R 2.0, and just as great as the originals, with updated offense MX : both version, although the Eaton & Condrey is the superior unit to me, never a big fan of Lane. The supreme southern heel tag team. Arn & Tully : no brainer Freebirds : They were a trio, but any combination involving the great Terry Gordy worked. Hayes is underrated. Then it gets tricky a bit. Heavenly Bodies ? Maybe, I haven't seen enough of their work, but I can't think of a much better team in the 90's, old school southern style. I'm talking about Prichard & Del Ray here, for the same reasons as for the MX. Hart Foundation ? Way too many really good matches in a non favourable environment to be put aside. That said, Jim Neidhart wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. Windham & Dustin ? Short-lived but awesome Quebecers ? Short lived but rather awesome, again, in a non favourable environment, especially since it's about that time the tag belts became really secondary. Their stint in WCW hurt them though. Can-Am Express ? Overall, probably, for their US work, not a chance. Smothers & Guido ? Really good team, but where are the matches ? I don't buy it. Fabulous Ones ? Nope. They never did much for me. Hollywood Blondes. I'll have to rewatch their work. I don't think so, teams like Strike Force or the Killer Bees would have a better shots so... Highflyers ? We need some AWA expertise here. Steiner ? Nope. Doom ? Nope. Samoan Swat Team/HeadShrinkers : probably underrated at this point because they never had the defining matches. Faces of Fear : including their short stint together in WWF ? Possibly. Road Warriors ? Hum... Maybe, if you take in account how important they were, and they did have their share of really good matches, but their best ones were in Japan. British Bulldogs ? I'll have to rewatch them too. Overrated in my mind. so... PG-13 ? Maybe. So, the top 6 is pretty easy, then I can't really think of any *great* tag team up to the level of the first 6.

Not really. Vader would go for suplexes for much smaller opponents minutes into a match. Vader bumped like a freak because that's what he like to do. I know some people don't like Vader for that reason, that he bumped way too much for a supposed monster. It never bothered me since Vader had something else to offer, which was stiffing the hell out of his opponents and killing them with big moves. Most big fat guys who weren't exactly bomb throwers had to rely on the "break the wall down" psychology which was very effective. One Man Gang was great at it. Earthquake was pretty damn good at it too (and he had a rather good moveset too actually). Haven't seen enough Bundy to compare to these other two, but I'm sure he was really good too. Bigeow who did bump a lot was also excellent at this. I won't touch Mark Henry with a ten foot pole.

I remember the R'n'R having a really good match with Flair & Arn on Nitro in 96. Sure their offense was dated, but if given their opportunity, they would have put most team working at the same time in the big two to shame. I would have loved to see a good, long R'n'R vs Body Donnas match.

I agree with your overall point in that post and I think Candido was really awesome in SMW but just want to note that he was one of the more disappointing guys on the ECW rewatch I did. Certainly not bad, but with all the stuff I watched I figured there would be a lot of Candido gems. There weren't. But I'll expand on that more in a coming thread I've got in the works. Candido was easily in my top 10 ECW guys after my rewatch.

I disagree. Chris Candido was a great wrestler, and he never got past first-half undercard act on major shows and barely high midcard in ECW. Mr. Gannosuke was one of the best wrestler in the world to me in the late 90's and early 00's, and he never work elsewhere but in struggling then bankrupt FMW. Mariko Yoshida was a great wrestler who got a horrible outfit and never went further than mid-card in Zenjo, and only main-evented as one of the greatest wrestler on the planet in a small indy ARSION. There are plenty of exemples, both in the US because work doesn't matter as much as politics and looking good and in Japan because things don't work the same and if you're a product of the indies you might just never get pushed in a major promotions. As far as the R'n'R Express goes, it's been said already, but they were past their prime in the 90's, although still a great working team, and the bookers of WCW were clueless anyway. They would never have worked in WWF for obvious reasons (look, size, southern stigma). The R'n'R Express in their prime not only were the greatest babyface tag team ever, had shitloads of great matches, but also drew tons of money in tons of territories for a lot of years, and were bonafide stars. The WWF teams of the same era beneficiated from the marketing machine of Titan but never were more than a cog in the money making machine that was Hulkamania.

I remember, and man was I disgusted as a young mark. I didn't like Hogan to begin with, and Untertaker was the apex of cool character to me, and he was unbeatable. Hogan putting a stain on Taker's record with a freaking rollup angered me to no end back then.