MJH

I'll come back with more no doubt, but in lieu of the Asuka/Hotta thread: Bull vs. Kyoko - 3/26, 9/2.

I thought Samurai started in 1996?

I don't think it was the style (though that's part of it) so much as the constant touring working with the same people every night to, audiences who don't require as much: no matter how motivated you might be at the start, you're going to end up in routine zone, and that's hard to break. And by the time you get to 1994, with the match with the Steiners, Owen, Rick and Scott getting a chance to do their cool shit gets in the way.

He was certainly one of the better workers to come along in the tail end of the WoS era; they had another match in '87/'88, right at the end of the TV run, that was always one of the more highly-touted matches long before the post-TWC archiving revival.

So long as the '91 match goes on...

My opinion of this was similar to Jerome's, but I'd defend it's inclusion through reputation. It's something I haven't went back to in forever, so I guess there's a chance I'd have a different take on it, but neither are exactly my favourites. On the grounds of Bull/Kyoko, I recall telling Loss that 3/26 and 9/2 are pretty similar, with 3/26 being the better match but 9/2 having Kyoko's big win so it's probably best to do one or the other. It looks like both got cut somewhere along the way .

In 95 there's just a lot that overshadows it, not the least of which is that the 8/30 re-match is largely considered even better by most ppl who've seen both. This: 8/30 is one of the best joshi tags ever. And being one of the last big commercial tapes along with Destiny a few days later, it's generally seen first. I guess, if there's a comparison, it's a little like watching 5/94 after 6/95 for most people. I think the discrepancy is greater, and of course this is hidden away on TV which has never been as sought-after as comms for Zenjo, but this is a great match, with one of the best opening falls these 3WA tags ever had.

I doubt most indies have a royalties scheme.

Eddie circa 2004 was the best any US worker was in the decade. Austin had a great run for six months or so in 2001, actually, but he was out all of 2000 and was retired shortly after so I'm not sure I can put him anywhere above low-end Top 10. Benoit's there, too. I don't like the Angle matches anymore than anyone else around here but on a week-to-week basis, especially through '04, he was just great. Angle I might tuck in at 10. I mean the last few years in particular have been... but I still enjoy the majority of his stuff in the first half of the decade. I find 95% of Danielson matches overrated but still at least generally good, some very good, so he's difficult for me to rank. That said, I can't see him being outside a Top 10. I'm far more likely to watch his match with Daniels from the second show than anything he did with Nigel or KENTA, though. I think it's been such a depressing decade, really, and given it's so recent as well, I don't know. ** '96-'05 is Eddy in a heartbeat with Benoit the only other candidate.

Great performances. But, yes, the general point remains the same.

Both of these guys worked in the US before 1995. John I had my doubt about those two. Where did they show up before 95 ? I don't think it was in ECW. AAA worked California.

Bret's coliseum matches do through up some interesting moments, though. He wasn't *trying* really, I agree, but there'd be lots of clever little spots/sequences with Kimala/etc that you can't think of anyone other than Bret do that show you how easilly he could've had a solid-good match with guys who normally didn't at all. And because Bret was quite cerebral compared to the guys around him, his stuff ages as well/better than anyones. Oh, and since you mentioned Randy Savage, I had a VHS coliseum him vs. Terry Taylor from '93 or thereabouts? If anyone has it and can cap it perhaps or find it online I recall it having just a brilliant shine from Savage that was full of spots no one does anymore that again showed how clever he could be when he wanted to. It's been years since but alas I have no VCR anymore to watch it back myself but throwing it out there.

I'm not saying the audience saw them as equals, but they worked the match as equals. They even composed their respective control segments spot-for-spot so that they reflected each other. Kobashi doesn't beat Misawa at Budokan in '98 or '99 but he still has way more of the match, he works them as the dominant/"superior"/etc wrestler.

Rocco is the guy (who we have footage of, as opposed to a George Kidd) with the reputation in Britain as being the best worker. Saint wasn't/isn't too far behind him, though.

It's "new" in the "the first half doesn't matter squat; it's all about the finishing run" sense. Hence the whole "Modern self-conscious epic" debate... "Mirror": Misawa/Kobashi 10/97. Establish both guys are equal, match pivots on a keyspot. Kobashi/Sasaki and Kobashi/Akiyama are more recent examples: it's meant for big "epic" stages/matches, really. Cena/Batista used it at SummerSlam a few years ago too. Matches often do away with the initial shine to make a big deal out of the first bit of offence from the face. Lawler/Dundee (85? Lawler has an injured eye) is the first to come to mind, MS1/Sangre Chicana is another. Hogan's comeback/finish was a combined routine. Misawa's elongated comeback was similar though there'd often be one or two more near falls after he was definitively back in it/on top.

Best comeback is Misawa. Best fire is Kobashi. Best selling? Too many to name. Steamboat is great theatrically, ie; live, selling to the crowd, but how often are you convinced he's in actual pain? Tweener/De Facto Face Hokuto was sensational. Kobashi, Misawa could sell. I don't think there's a better rag doll to get beaten up on than Toyota. Kikuchi is great too. Morton... and you can't overlook the uber-successful babyfaces like Hogan, Chigusa, etc etc... whose act often hinged on it. Best shine/hopespots: Aside from WWE set-shines/etc, it's often a combination of both guys bringing spots. But who I think Kobashi is the best offensive babyface without doubt.

Because we'd pretty much have to give up listening to good music by that same logic.

Glad you liked it. I haven't watched it in years: it came on a bunch of 20-odd UWF/UWFi VHSs a guy in Japan sent me in about 2003 and, especially being such a big Tamura fan, it's one of the ones I've really wanted to go back and re-watch only we don't have a VCR anymore. As a package, I always preferred those early Korakuen UWFi shows to the big shows they'd run in '94, and that was a match made for such a setting.

Would there be much point in an HD service when 99% of their library wasn't shot as such?

That's fair enough. But the two points worth bearing in mind are: 1) She gave as good as she got and won the match: the message of the match is a positive one from a feminine/feminist perspective. 2) She's willingly subjecting herself to whatever punishment she took in that match. I'm not saying that automatically "makes it OK", but I'm sure you wouldn't have to look into it too far before you found couples willingly partaking it much rougher/violent BDSM/etc. Not to steal John's wrestling/porn gimmick, but I'm sure there's a lot worse in there, and not even of the mock-rape sort: does a double-anal "offend" anyone? I'm sure that hurts a whole hell of a lot more than that backbreaker/punches. But I digress, she sure seems like a tough girl in the highlights I watched/linked. I know a number of women in wrestling and the majority of them, where/when they wrestle men and I've seen it happen countless times, make the point, repeatedly, of saying "don't go easy on me". From the little I've seen/heard of Necro out of character, he doesn't strike me as a guy who a girl would feel threatened by being in the ring with: he seems entirely opposite to his character. And, indeed, I can't think of too many "stars" (which at that level he is) going out of their way to put over a woman as emphatically as he did and he should be commended for it, if anything. It almost makes me like the guy.

Chyna was shit. But even if it had been shit, it would've at least given the angle the right spin and turned it into something beyond stupid, crass shock violence.

Yeah. Have him do something, but I wouldn't advertise him for a full on match. Of course, he's already "done stuff" both before and at this year's WrestleMania. You could have him work in the Survivor Series match, maybe lay him out before the match so he's not there all the time, come in at the end when his partner's down 3-1 and lay out the 3, an "I've still got it" message for Cena, I guess. And, of course, it'd be another 6 months until Mania, anyway. But Mania should be his first "real" match.

This one?: Aside from looking like a horrible match, that's exactly how a man vs. woman match should go, isn't it? She steps out to prove herself, gives as good as she gets, and wins in the end. It looks like Necro took far worse of a beating actually. *** I don't know enough (well, any) of the context around the Austin/Debra thing, but having him give Stacey a stunner on the day of the verdict for no reason whatsoever... it doesn't offend me, but it's asking/begging for other people to be offended. Being consciously offensive isn't always a bad thing, but that scenario is not the one to take such a stance for. *** As for Dudleys beating up women... it should've lead to Chyna taking them on (and beating them). You could do the same thing nowadays with Beth (or Kong if she comes back) and I'd be fully behind the company against whatever "controversy" people sought from it, if that's the direction of the angle. Chyna was shit, but a good feminist/equality angle in wrestling: well, it's about time. But doing it for the cheap pop without it even being any kind of pay-off to her causing them hell/costing them the titles/etc for a while... again, you're just asking for trouble. It doesn't offend me (it might've even been Mae's idea for all we know... Terri/Trish could've been good friends with Bubba who might've been a lovely cuddly teddy-bear character backstage looking out for the girls... it's fake) but it's such a contentious issue that you need a defensable reason for doing it. "Shock factor" obviously isn't.

Two things hit me watching this for the DVDVR '90s Poll... the first being how all of Kawada's transitions are quick sudden counters rather than him out-fighting Misawa in anyway. The second being, I got a certain "following the leader" sense down the stretch, as in a lot of what Kawada did for near falls came after Misawa had done something similar and then, obviously, Misawa had more weapons in the arsenal to put him away. Comparing this match to, for instance, the first KENTA/Marufuji singles match proves the beauty of having patience. I guess these guys hadn't really "gone all the way" that set the bar for what the KENTAs and Marufujis of the world would ape but, this didn't feel like "this is the best match we can have" but rather "this is the best match we can have given our roles and places and positions etc at this time".

Wasn't the whole reason Austin was so pissed off about Owen doing the sit-out Tombstone because of this? "I'm not up for doing the move that way, broke Chono's neck in New Japan with it..." etc