Matt D

What matters more? Mobilizing the base or drawing in casuals?

There was something pretty special about seeing it in 02-03 when local indies would generally bring in a guy like Beefcake like it was a big deal, and suddenly you had all these guys you only read about on the internet or saw in ".rm" files or whatever, guys like Daniels and Red and the SAT and Low Ki and Styles. It felt almost like the internet wrestling geek version of when Vince suddenly had all these guys on his roster in 85.

So the only time that Brock ever drew sufficiently as a main eventer was when he wasn't in wrestling. Got it.

His English was still pretty rough a few years later when he was AWA champ.

I love the jockeying for position in the Chicky Starr pole match but the ending is pretty lame.

Yeah, Bill, not to pile on, but I want to see it too. Take your time, we've got it, but let's see some breakdowns in the Angle note.

I'm just picturing Cena with hilarious cut off arms on the tux, like Fred Flinstone or something, and Ambrose with a monocle he got somewhere.

A Cena/Ambrose Tuxedo match would be aces.

Shane Douglas syndrome.

Wolfie D was one of the more valid choices on the list, actually.

A friend got me a gift sub for the year.

No, and it's a hell of a storytelling tool. It's hugely striking. It stays with you. It leaves a mark on your psyche just to see it. Now I just want to see him use it to tell a story that I really get to enjoy (and I say this having seen that with the Hennig AWA match, for instance, but I want to see it here too). It's the sort of tool that if used for the sake of using it, can render a match meaningless. I think that it's worth discussing not just if it makes the special matches more special, but if it actively hurts matches that don't reach that level by making them all noise (albeit glorious noise) and no resonance? I think it hurt these matches. Now, on the other hand, if these matches would have been worked EXACTLY the same if it was Bass and Dibiase teaming, then maybe it didn't, because those matches wouldn't have been as good without him to do what they wanted to do as well as he did it? But maybe those matches would have been better almost by accident because they'd have to slow things down and make things mean more without his intensity to use as a crutch? I have no idea. I need to see more. This isn't necessarily an attack on Hansen. It's just impressions and qualified ones at that.

I started on the Jumbo vs Brisco matches. And then I saw Tenryu on Will's list and went "hey, maybe I should see Tenryu too." Then I typed in Jumbo, Tenryu into youtube and found these two in the first few hits, I think. The first one I picked because I kind of like Bass, and then when I saw the second one which looked like it was on the same tour and was only 20 mins long, which is about as long as I have to watch a match right now, I figured that had a point of reference, so what the hell? Science. RE: Bull charges. Sometimes bulls charge into each other, and the intensity was there, and the crowd sort of ate it up (I think; they got excited when Jumbo and Hansen were in at least), but that doesn't mean that it's something that appeals all that much to me. The leg selling felt like it was for the sake of it, what Dibiase thought he was supposed to do, not necessarily something to draw the fans into any aspect of the match, and then the bulls charging felt like they were for he sake of it, not necessarily to tell any particular story. It didn't build towards anything. I can appreciate the intensity and how singular it is. I've never seen anyone move quite like Hansen, but amazing execution for the sake of amazing execution falls into one very broad category for me which is "something for the sake of itself." IF it's the right thing for the crowd, it gets some credit, and yeah, something realistic seeming will do better than something overly collaborative in my mind, but it's just the rich man's version of the 00s stuff we shit on. Now, like you said, these aren't great matches, but I needed to start somewhere, and I'd rather start with something like this than at the top, so I can get my feet wet and understand better what I'm seeing when I do see the high end stuff.

AJPW: Hansen/Dibiase vs Jumbo/Tenryu - 4/20/85 I've seen some other AJPW tags from the 80s, usually if there's a guy (Bockwinkel, Martel, etc) that I really like in them. I have to admit I really haven't been impressed by these two. There are things that did impress me of course, but ultimately, the style seems to be "Wrestlers run into each other at high speeds for twenty minutes." Sometimes someone will have the advantage for a few minutes but it never really builds to a key moment. Sometimes someone will sell limb damage or just in general for a little bit but only until it's their turn to be on offense again. Hansen has incredible stamina and energy. Last match he made a headlock seem like a high spot. In this match, he made being IN a headlock seem like one. The way he sizes up an opponent before charging at them is just nuts. Dibiase did better than Bass, but he was still a step behind. He'd not really make it in time for a double suplex or for a double shoulder block, mainly because Hansen was charging ahead at such high speed. On the other hand, he seemed to be calling things around the ring well and positioned himself well for other double teams, especially when he was setting an opponent up for Hansen. He also did a really nice job selling the leg at one point in the first ten minutes, but it almost felt like a hindrance since it ultimately didn't mean anything and really, in some ways, it distracted from the "let's charge at each other!" feel that they were going for. In a lot of ways, I almost felt like half of Dibiase's talents were wasted here. Maybe, though, because he could hold his own a little more than Bass, Hansen didn't feel like he had to QUITE be as go-go-go as he was in the other match. He still pressed on from one move to the next in a way that was honestly exhausting to watch, but there was a least a little bit of letting things breathe or locking on a hold. I liked Tenryu's legwork, as little as I actually got to saw, including his leg snap from the second rope. I also like how, after the quasi hot tag towards the end, he was so used to Hansen coming in to break things up that he let go of the hold and hit that awesome back brain kick of his. Jumbo got to sell a lot more here too, which was nice. It's great how excited the crowd gets whenever Jumbo and Hansen face off. This is just one year I'm looking at, so maybe it comes together in different matches on different tours, and I get why people would love Hansen, but I sure as hell wish that intensity and momentum could be channeled to a better end than bulls charging at each other without a lot of rhyme or reason behind it.

My favorite 96 Michaels match is probably the Goldust ladder one, for what it's worth.

I bet we could get Naimark to write something on the physics of the Irish Whip.

I bet if they let Enzo and Cass do their full entrance on the way to the ring in Philly they'd be super over as a lot of that crowd will have seen NXT.

I'm counting being on top in 02-03 when business really dropped off.

So he has at least two bad runs as a draw? Out of what? Three? Four?

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18026-sting-vs-black-scorpion-nwa-starrcade-121690-cage-match/

I really don't think we have to worry much about that on this site. For one thing, we're pretty heavy on having each other back up what they say (even if not unkind about it MOST of the time). For another, everyone's put a lot of thought into this. That's obvious so far. Most of us know each other and our tastes fairly well by now. Also, look at how the WKO list is received on the rest of the net. The second that El Satanico beats Shawn Michaels or even Davey Richards there'll be a ton of people who will dismiss this out of hand. Screw 'em.

The 60s and early 70s feel like such a black hole when it comes to the physical prime of certain guys.

Their best series is with the Nasty Boys in the winter of 92-93. The Natural Disasters had better matches with the Beverly Brothers.

AJPW: Hansen/Ron Bass vs Jumbo/Tenryu 4/6/85 I'm looking at these as individual performances right now for the GOAT. I can't help it. I haven't seen much of anyone but Bass. Isn't that funny? Jumbo - He'd developed a bit more into grumpy Jumbo by now? He was a definite force whenever he came into the ring, with my favorite parts the big face off vs Hansen early and the begging off by Bass (which felt earned) after the "hot tag." Tenryu - Spirited FIP, great timed back brain kick at a key moment. I need to see more. Bass - Kind of hilarious. He was blown up for 90% of the match, but damn it if he didn't handle it well. He went into rest holds but they were fairly gritty. He toughed it out and ran into shots when he had to. He did BS on the outside when he was called upon it. He made smart, believable tags when on top. And when Jumbo came in and he begged off, you believed him. Hansen: His intensity was amazing. He made a headlock feel like a high spot. That's not even hyperbole. The speed that he cut the distance and drove his opponent down had that effect. That said, every time he came in, it was with that speed, and he'd keep rolling with it, into a pinfall and then into whatever went next. It all looked great, but since nothing ever breathed, nothing really mattered. In some ways, Bass' lack of stamina was the heart of the match, because he had to slow things down which helped everything resonate. I was really surprised by how go-go-go Hansen's dominance felt. Everything looked good and was credible because of what he put behind it but actually pausing to let Tenryu sell would have helped the narrative of the match immensely.