Matt D

I wish more people would look at really late Bossman stuff. If you can get away from "Great match" mentality and see a guy in 3-8 minute matches trying to accomplish very specific things and doing an amazing job at accomplishing those things in an interesting way, you can really see how good and smart he was at that point.

Is there any advantage at all to a Texas Death Match over a Last Man Standing match?

Buddy vs Hector Guerrero, April 14, 1979 This should be fun. I don't think I've seen Buddy against someone this much smaller than him in this run. We get a lot of rope running and arm drags. Guerrero works the arm and seems honestly happy that the crowd is behind him. Rose would keep getting a move and quickly go for an elbow drop or something and miss, only to hurt his arm in the process and keep the shine going. Or Buddy will grab the hair to get a mometary advantage but get tossed through with the momentum. This is all babyface in control by numbers but Hector's got some fun stuff (rolling short arm scissors) and Rose's reactions and expressions are great. This sort of thing goes on and on as they switch between holds and rope running and it might go on a little long for the length of the match but Hector's whole sthick here is speed and techniue so I'm ok with it. Buddy takes a powder, goes for the handshake but Hector kicks him with the cheapshot and keeps it churning. You really feel for Buddy here because he's getting out classed no matter what he tries. Finally, Rose hits an elbow out of nowhere and starts to really dismantle Hector using his light frame for all he can get out of it. There are some really gritty looking knees to the side of a prone hector as well. Guerrero gets a flash sunset flip with his speed and starts to take back over (which seems a little much to me, but the flip side is that Buddy is so built up that you know if head more than 2-3 minutes of offense in a row he'd win the match just like that), including this awesome repeated upward mule kicks onto Buddy hanging over the top turnbuckle. Eventually, Hector goes for a cross body and gets caught. Buddy does this awesome little touch of bouncing back against the ropes in order to steady himself before hitting the ribbreaker. Billy Robinson backbreaker and the pin. Wiskowski comes in and they hit the Billy Robinson Polish Doughboy Decapitation again causing Barr to reverse the decision.Hector getting so much offense isn't so bad when Buddy gets the pin so decisively and then they break him in half post-match, but I think I would have liked to see a longer heat segment here. Buddy vs King Parsons, April 21, 1979 This is cut off at the end but Parsons is a hugely different opponent than Guerrero, so let's see what Buddy does a week later. Buddy has a superman shirt on, claims that Stasiak's heart punch can't get through his chest. Rip is seconding Buddy so I find this timeline a little dubious, but I will trust in youtube. Buddy takes an early control with deliberate, cheaty armwork while a very angry granny looks on. Parsons reverses and Buddy pops the crowd by selling his hand huge after he tries to hit Parsons' in the head. They're working the crowd pretty well in this opening. Rose gets a toe on the rope and Sandy Barr goes into business for himself stooging and then kicking it off. For all the crap Buddy puts Sandy through I suppose it's vaguely forgivable. One thing I love about Portland is how much of a family it all seems, whether it's selling the tickets at Sandy Barr's flea market or here, pointing out the news anchor's brother in the crowd. Buddy takes over, hones in on the back and then they start playing up the head again with a big turnbuckle shot that fails utterly. They curtail it quickly enough though and it actually works ok as a hope spot instead of a transition. It's a little back and forth until Rose very dramatically grabs the rope on a dropkick. He starts driving the knee back into the spine which is the only thing that's really worked against Parsons so far and what I'm watching ends. Both of these matches had a lot of comedy and Rose showing ass but they're both quite varied in the actual spots and techniques used. I don't know if I'd call either close to the best of what I've been watching lately though.

There isn't a ton of Colossal Connection on tape and I've already done at least one of the Demolition matches (the MSG match is really good, btw). There's the Rockers match, maybe a few more. How much Machines do we have?

We like Haku a lot, especially for the stuff you seem to have not seen. He's a big part of my #3 on my AWA ballot and we had a match of the week where he had a great performance. Have you turned the corner on Bossman at all?

Chime in on the Bossman thread on what your favorite stuff was.

He was being awesome in Montreal is what.

I'm kind of with Parv here. There's a huge difference between Islanders face Haku and Monstah Meng with the fro. There's also a big difference between stooging Heenan family Survivor Series 89 Haku and Faces of Fear tag Meng. That said, there's a really big difference between super fat Twin Towers Bossman and relatively lithe flak jacket Bossman.

One example: Starcade 94. Vader vs Duggan is a really peculiar match because there aren't a ton of Vader's big man spots. I'm not sure if there are any. It's much more of a brawl. I'm convinced the big reason for this was because they didn't want to dilute Sting vs Avalanche which was higher on the card.

This is a weird comparison. I'll tackle it tomorrow.

Now I feel like we should almost do a roll call of PWO issues and how they correlate to our wrestling views, like how being off ritalin for the last ten years means that I need heavy structure in order to pay attention to what's going on in a match or something.

Alright, the POST Warrior leaving stuff is what's funny.

The post-match stuff is what's funny with warrior vs heenan

Anyone with 94 observers or a knowledge of this stuff: There's a surreal episode of Raw in early February (the second of a pair of tapings) with Bastion Booger announcing with Vince, where they set up Jannetty/Ramon vs Quebecers as the second show of the next tapings. Basically, it's a pretty weird segway/interface/transition between feuds. -Marty and 1-2-3 Kid had been feuding off and on with Johnny Polo/Quebecers due to Polo's bragging. It started with a Jannetty vs Polo match on Raw where Levy hilariously worked an action-packed match instead of a cowardly manager match and peaked with the Kid/Jannetty title win on the 1st anniversary show (which was then followed by a great Owen/Bret interview where Owen was really pissy as they had previously had the title shot at the Rumble). Quebecers won the belts back a week later at MSG but they were still going to run a Kid vs Polo match post-rumble. Kid ended up out for a few weeks with an injury (which took him out of the Rumble too). -IRS had been feuding with Razor Ramon (and had repossessed his gold chains). Michaels, around a mini feud with 1-2-3 Kid, had made a pretty impressive attack on Razor at the end of 1993 (hitting a Razor's edge on the floor) and was coming out with his own IC title. Ramon defeated IRS at the Rumble in a restarted match after IRS got the fake fall due to Michaels interference. -Post Rumble, IRS had been announcing during a Raw with the 1-2-3 Kid and during a Jannetty vs Johnny Polo match, Kid steals the chains back and Jannetty gets into it with IRS. Ramon/Jannetty/Kid enter into an alliance of sorts. -The next week (second show of the taping) it's IRS vs Jannetty. Quebecers come out. Beat on Marty and get sent out. Polo comes out. Ramon comes out. Quebecers come back out and get in Ramon's face. Polo trips Jannetty to lead to IRS winning. Ramon gives Jacques the Razor's Edge post match and they announce that in two weeks it will be Jannetty/Ramon vs Quebecers for the belt. -Marty steals a bus in Europe and gets fired. -Two Weeks Later (the week after is the dog show) they run Ramon/1-2-3 Kid vs Quebecers on Raw and Michaels interferes, shifting Ramon's attention on him solely leading into the ladder match at Mania. -Quebecers move on to Men on a Mission for Mania. -1-2-3 Kid ends up in the destined-to-be-cancelled 10 man tag. My question is this: If Jannetty hadn't been fired, does anyone know if the initial plans were different? Even if not, i think it was a pretty interesting swath of booking for WWF, showing how they dealt with weekly tv demands, attempts to pop ratings/house show attendence, balancing ppv feuds and matches with their weekly stuff, and switching in and out on the fly due to injuries/firings.

The haphazard nature of expansion shows is pretty legendary. Where they'd do shows halfway across the country one night after the next instead of doing a loop. And by legendary it means i'm not entirely sure it's real, but hey, that's why Windham/Rotunda claim to have quit!

Piper/Rose/Wiskowski/Killer Tim Brooks vs Ron Starr/Adonis/George Wells/Hector Guerrero Elimination Tag. April 7, 1979 Well, THIS is pretty cool. Buddy doing a jig to Piper's bagpipes is awesome (There's also this great little 20 second segment later on where Rose and Piper are kneeling whispering strategy with each other). Shine has all the faces working on basically all the heels' arms. Piper is very much stand out here and he really adds something to the Rose/Wiskowski act (even if it's already great). Heels come back once or twice (Especially Ed who was particularly good at mixing vulnerable and dangerous), but the face stay dominant until we get some tomfoolery and a long, pretty good heat segment on Ron Starr with a lot of comebacks, dickish heel cutoffs and offense, and a great hot tag where Starr desperately avoided Rose around the ring for a minute first. The desperation made it okay he wasn't selling as much as he could, but even then, there was something punch drunk about how he did it and Rose was brilliant stooging while trying to stop him. They hit a cheap diving headbutt on Wells after the hot tag and he gets eliminated though. Second fall starts with Adonis trying desperately to get out of the heels corner as they do roundabout clubbering on him. The fight out of the corner is really good here and while it's still a bit surreal to see Adonis as a face, he owns the role here. It opens up a bit and we get a few solid cut offs. He eventually gets the hot tag to Guerrero and Hector takes on everyone until he gets double teamed and it's really just a mauling with a double dumping onto the top turnbuckle, a huge toss in the air and multiple double gutbusters. nasty stuff and eventually they pin him much to the remaining faces' chagrin. Third fall is basically the faces getting revenge on Brooks. Rose takes this visceral flying leap off the apron for a punch. Heels keep breaking up pins and what note until Wiskowski misses the diving headbutt(great call back to the fall on Wells) and nails Brooks, letting him get pinned. Piper thinks it's intentional and the heels explode as the crowd goes nuts They take Piper out with a Billy Robinson backbreaker/knee off the ropes combo and eventually, while ranting, eat the count out. Really good stuff which makes sure to protect the guys who should be protected and make the guys who look strong strong, but really, once again, everyone comes out looking great.

Can we think of a US promotion which had a comedy match every card? or almost ever card?

But can Del Rio have a good triple threat match, Dylan!

We have to differentiate by era somewhat, but do you feel like, let's say 1984/1989/1994 WWF crowds may be unique in other ways, whether it be their expectations or what they've been conditioned to enjoy or what? Would other crowds accept the 4 minute chinlock with minimal interaction/elbow up transition as willingly?

I kind of feel like he wants us to lean towards Flair. Were the fans cracking up when Magnum destroyed Flair's nice suit?

During the Rude/Piper cage matches they always did the pants falling down thing and the crowd would go nuts. Just find a Buddy Rose match.

This probably shouldn't count since it's the funniest thing ever. But look at the crowd's faces at the 2 minute mark.

Don't we have plenty of memphis where they're laughing like crazy at heel lawler? Or with face lawler at some hapless fool?

There was at least some TV build to Beverly Brothers vs Disasters. They had to earn their title shot. LOD vs Money Inc was just tossed out there. Granted, the Beverlys vs LOD feud was built up a lot better than either, but that's neither here nor there. EDIT: One thing that's amazed me in watching late 1993-early 1994 WWF for really the first time is how regional it was. They'd mention what would traditionally be the C shows (high school gyms/benefits/etc.) during the normal commentary on the syndicated shows. Not even a Fink cut in or anything or a Face to Face. I'm talking about during the matches themselves and with Vince doing it, mentioning how Doink would be at so and so school gym. They'd mention some of the bigger shows during Raw. It was a major retrenching.

Rarity is an issue as well. And novelty. And availability of competition. I might go digging. I'd be curious in seeing that argument. I also think there is something innately logical about Bulldog being a national draw which doesn't necessarily hold with the Road Warriors. Summerslam 1992 was promoted with Bulldog as the returning hero going for the belt as a big thing. LOD were buried in a feudless nothing match with Money Inc. It was a trough, as you like to say. The Tag Team Title match was Natural Disasters vs Beverly Brothers (which is actually a really good match).