Vince McMahon vs. The World

[thebrainfollower]

Getting back to the Road Warriors as a draw that I started, at least for the AWA in Chicago Jerry Blackwell is indeed the man based on these numbers posted way back on page 1. Apologies for not seeing this fully, but it does seem like Roadies departure did hurt things a lot (going from 7K to 1800) just not as much.

 

Still though the numbers really make me wanna rip Verne's head off. 3 guys leaving and it seems like combined they dropped crowds from 13K to 1800. Though I guess in Blackwell's case the health issues might have been too great for Verne to get around, he really should have bent over backwards to keep the RW's around, and use them as sort of a traveling act ala the NWA world champ when they got stale in the AWA circuit.

 

 

 

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – January 10, 1986 (13,000)

Bill Irwin d. Kelly Kiniski

Scott Irwin d. Baron Von Raschke

Nord the Barbarian & Boris Zuhkov d. Earthquake Ferris & Marty Jannetty

Nick Bockwinkel d. Larry Zbyszko by DQ

AWA World Tag Titles: Jimmy Garvin & Steve Regal © d. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Sgt. Slaugther d. Stan Hansen © by DQ

Steel Cage Match: Crusher Blackwell & The Road Warriors d. The Fabulous Freebirds

 

AWA @ Chicago, IL – International Amphitheater – February 23, 1986 (7,000)

Leon White d. Doug Somers

Col. DeBeers d. Buck Zumhofe

The Midnight Rockers d. The Alaskans

No DQ Match: Larry Zbyszko d. Nick Bockwinkel

Scott Hall, Curt Hennig, & Brad Rheingans d. Mongolian Stomper, Nord the Barbarian, & Boris Zuhkov

The Road Warriors d. Bill & Scott Irwin

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Stan Hansen © battled Sgt. Slaughter to a no contest

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – March 23, 1986 (5,500)

Scott Irwin fought Brad Rheingans to a draw

The Midnight Rockers d. Earthquake Ferris & Doug Somers

Bruiser Brody d. Rick Renslow

AWA World Tag Titles: Scott Hall & Curt Hennig © d. Col. DeBeers & Buddy Rose

Texas Death: Nick Bockwinkel d. Larry Zbyszko

The Road Warriors d. Nord the Barbarian & Boris Zuhkov by DQ

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Stan Hansen © d. Rick Martel by countout

 

 

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – April 27, 1986 (1,800)

Brad Rheingans d. Col. DeBeers by DQ

The Midnight Rockers d. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers

Sherri Martel d. Candi Divine by DQ

AWA World Tag Titles: Scott Hall & Curt Hennig © d. Bill Irwin & Ryuma Go

Catch Wrestling Rules: Larry Zbyszko d. Scott LeDoux

Bruiser Brody, Nord the Barbarian, & Boris Zuhkov d. Greg Gagne, Mike Rotundo, & Leon White

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Nick Bockwinkel d. Stan Hansen © by DQ

[Indikator]

It is my understanding that the WWF expansion in continental Europe in the late 80s/early 90s was due to the TV industry opening up to private companies that needed new content. The two star shows for children that were proven TV commodities outside of Europe were WWF and Japanese animation (Japanese cartoons were nothing new in Spain, France or Italy, probably other countries too, but state-owned channels usually had the rights to locally produced animation as well as the popular US cartoons).

 

After a couple of years big boom the WWF Superstars format was a failure in Europe. Nobody wants to sit through endless jobber matches if TV is going to come to your country maybe once every two years and it may not even go to your city anyway. After 1993 the only countries where wrestling was big were the UK and Germany. In the mid 90s I used to get all my WCW and WWF TV from Germany actually. They showed every syndicated or cable show and there was wrestling almost every night.

Not to sure about anime, there have always been quite a number of international co-productions as the Japanese were able to produce it cheap (just think of Heidi). The private stations had the major advantage that no conservative group or church was able to veto such programming, they could just start a media campaign condemning wrestling as a vile waste of time that will only corrupt the youth. TV got a lot more daring once private stations came into the pictures. For Germany it's actually a bit bizarre, the conservatives were violently against wrestling yet they were also strongly pushing for private stations when they feared that state tv would be overrun by young leftist hippies trying to destroy family values and what not. Had that happened in the 50s there is a good chance that there would have been some kind of World of Sports pendant. Alas, that was not to be.

 

Do you have more information how WWF fared during their expansion, I am not aware of shows being canceled because of low ratings. In 1995 German station RTL2 tried to establish Superstars in a Sunday afternoon timeslot. After 2 episodes (can't remember if they aired on the same day) all those aforementioned conservatives groups had a meltdown and managed to make wrestling either FSK 16 or 18, 18 being an X rating. After that wrestling could only be aired after 11PM. That was the end of our mainstream boom

[khawk20]

My take:

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – January 10, 1986 (13,000)

Steel Cage Match: Crusher Blackwell & The Road Warriors d. The Fabulous Freebirds

 

Cage matches always drew better than usual numbers in the AWA, and this one was no different.

 

 

AWA @ Chicago, IL – International Amphitheater – February 23, 1986 (7,000)

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Stan Hansen © battled Sgt. Slaughter to a no contest

 

Slaughter's first match in Chicago vs. Hansen, people would not have bought Slaughter winning the title on his first crack there, IMO. Road Warriors vs. Irwins would have been a huge let-down after the Freebirds blow-off cage match.

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – March 23, 1986 (5,500)

The Road Warriors d. Nord the Barbarian & Boris Zuhkov by DQ

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Stan Hansen © d. Rick Martel by countout

 

Nord and Boris was a decent team but Boris was a midcard guy in the fan's eyes so that wouldn;t have been a "drawing" matchup. Martel getting a rematch against Hansen has some intrigue, but I think the fans were tired of Martel by this point and most probably didn't see him regaining the title...and, like the Slaughter match, not in their first rematch in the city.

 

 

AWA @ Rosemont, IL – Rosemont Horizon – April 27, 1986 (1,800)

Brad Rheingans d. Col. DeBeers by DQ

The Midnight Rockers d. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers

Sherri Martel d. Candi Divine by DQ

AWA World Tag Titles: Scott Hall & Curt Hennig © d. Bill Irwin & Ryuma Go

Catch Wrestling Rules: Larry Zbyszko d. Scott LeDoux

Bruiser Brody, Nord the Barbarian, & Boris Zuhkov d. Greg Gagne, Mike Rotundo, & Leon White

AWA World Heavyweight Title: Nick Bockwinkel d. Stan Hansen © by DQ

 

Bockwinkel challenging Hansen would also have been a let-down. a Martel or Slaughter rematch with a stip would have done much better. The rest of the card are mostly names that became prominent in the territory later on (Ryuma Go, Rose & Somers, Rockers, White), but would have had a "Who???" quality to them that might have hurt attendance. The April card, if you were needing to skip one of that bunch, is the obvious choice going by where everyone on it was in their development and placement in the tiering of stars.

 

I assume Go is replacing Scott Irwin and Rotondo and White **may** be subs for the LOD, going back to the LOD vs. Nord and Boris matches. IF they annoucned the replacements ahead of time, it wouldn't have helped sales much.

 

Plus people probably thought Brody would no-show.

[pantherwagner]

It is my understanding that the WWF expansion in continental Europe in the late 80s/early 90s was due to the TV industry opening up to private companies that needed new content. The two star shows for children that were proven TV commodities outside of Europe were WWF and Japanese animation (Japanese cartoons were nothing new in Spain, France or Italy, probably other countries too, but state-owned channels usually had the rights to locally produced animation as well as the popular US cartoons).

 

After a couple of years big boom the WWF Superstars format was a failure in Europe. Nobody wants to sit through endless jobber matches if TV is going to come to your country maybe once every two years and it may not even go to your city anyway. After 1993 the only countries where wrestling was big were the UK and Germany. In the mid 90s I used to get all my WCW and WWF TV from Germany actually. They showed every syndicated or cable show and there was wrestling almost every night.

Not to sure about anime, there have always been quite a number of international co-productions as the Japanese were able to produce it cheap (just think of Heidi). The private stations had the major advantage that no conservative group or church was able to veto such programming, they could just start a media campaign condemning wrestling as a vile waste of time that will only corrupt the youth. TV got a lot more daring once private stations came into the pictures. For Germany it's actually a bit bizarre, the conservatives were violently against wrestling yet they were also strongly pushing for private stations when they feared that state tv would be overrun by young leftist hippies trying to destroy family values and what not. Had that happened in the 50s there is a good chance that there would have been some kind of World of Sports pendant. Alas, that was not to be.

 

Do you have more information how WWF fared during their expansion, I am not aware of shows being canceled because of low ratings. In 1995 German station RTL2 tried to establish Superstars in a Sunday afternoon timeslot. After 2 episodes (can't remember if they aired on the same day) all those aforementioned conservatives groups had a meltdown and managed to make wrestling either FSK 16 or 18, 18 being an X rating. After that wrestling could only be aired after 11PM. That was the end of our mainstream boom

 

I never thought I'd see a Heidi mention on this website.

 

But I can't really answer you on that. I never knew the times as I had a friend (who was also a fan) with a dish and every other Saturday we'd watch the Mexican wrestling on TV and then I'd get a shitload of tapes from DSF and RTL2 (and sometimes other odd stuff like IWF Florida from an Israeli TV channel and GWF or IWCCW or whatever was shown here and there).

 

I remember wrestling being very late on TV so you may be right. Let me ask my buddy Oliver Copp who would know for sure and I will post the answer.

 

If you are German and you have a younger sister who is now almost 30, ask her when did Bret Hart, Undertaker and Shawn Michaels stop being featured on BRAVO (for those that don't know, it's a girl pop magazine from Germany). I'd guess 96 or 97, I had a friend that bought it every week and she'd give me a heads up when there was a poster or stickers or whatever on somebody I liked back then which out of the people they were likely to feature it really means only Bret or Bulldog.

[pantherwagner]

Anddddd here's the answer:

 

You know, these was some regulatory pressure on RTL2 at the time but what got them to pull the plug on WWF was never bad ratings. It was WWE being too cocky and too difficult to deal with. It also wasn't wrestling losing popularity because WCW really took off in 1994/1995 and stayed hot through 2002. We're talking biggest single-ticket PPV in German TV history here.

 

Where WWF did suffer popularity-wise was by doing a tour almost every month in 1995 and parts of 1996. They ran so many house shows that fans lost interest in live events for years.

 

WWF bounced from station to station until the early 2000s then, as in the late 90s, advertisers (not regulators) really started to hate wrestling. To this day, many of the biggest brands have clauses in their ad deals that stipulate that not even make-good ads are allowed to be put during wrestling programming.

 

That pretty much killed their longterm on free TV. The final blow was then a combination of fans growing tired of Smackdown, Smackdown tours and WWE in general. Viewership dropped below 100,000 in recent years, and that's where we are today.

[cm funk]

RE: Davey being a draw in the UK

 

WCW ran 3 consecutive nights in London in Dec. 91 with crowds of 3000, 4000 and 5700. They did these shows after bringing him in

 

WCW @ London, England - Wembley Arena - March 11, 1993 (11,500; sell out)

The largest WCW gate to that point

WCW TV Champion Paul Orndorff defeated Michael Hayes

WCW US Champion Dustin Rhodes fought NWA World Champion Barry Windham to a double count-out in a non-title match

Maxx Payne pinned Cactus Jack

Johnny B. Badd defeated Vinnie Vegas

Van Hammer defeated Scotty Flamingo

Davey Boy Smith defeated Rick Rude via disqualification

Sting pinned WCW World Champion Big Van Vader to win the title at around the 16-minute mark by powerslamming the champion as he came off the top rope

 

WCW @ Birmingham, England - NEC - March 12, 1993 (10,500)

Van Hammer fought Maxx Payne to a time-limit draw

Michael Hayes defeated Scotty Flamingo

Davey Boy Smith pinned Vinnie Vegas

Rick Rude defeated Johnny B. Badd

Big Van Vader defeated Cactus Jack

WCW World Champion Sting & WCW US Champion Dustin Rhodes defeated NWA World Champion Barry Windham & WCW TV Champion Paul Orndorff in a bunkhouse match when Sting pinned Orndorff after hitting him with a boot

 

WCW @ Manchester, England - G-Mex - March 13, 1993 (8,000; sell out)

Johnny B. Badd defeated Scotty Flamingo

Maxx Payne defeated Michael Hayes

WCW Saturday Night - 3/27/93: Davey Boy Smith pinned Vinnie Vegas at 7:58 with the running powerslam after Vegas missed a charge in the corner

Rick Rude defeated Van Hammer

Big Van Vader defeated Cactus Jack

WCW World Champion Sting defeated WCW TV Champion Paul Orndorff

For comparison WWF drew 5000 in the same building in Manchester just a month earlier with Bret v. Flair on top

 

Then in 94 two WCW shows with Hogan v. Flair on top drew only 2000 in London and Manchester.

 

WWF in 94

 

WWF @ Blackburn, England - Arena - March 6, 1994 (3,900)

Sparky Plugg defeated the Brooklyn Brawler

Diesel defeated Virgil

Earthquake defeated Adam Bomb

Tatanka defeated Kwang

Jeff Jarrett defeated Rick Martel

Randy Savage defeated Crush

WWF Women's Champion Alundra Blayze defeated Leilani Kai

WWF IC Champion Razor Ramon defeated Shawn Michaels

 

WWF @ London, England - Royal Albert Hall - March 29, 1994 (3,000)

Kwang defeated the 1-2-3 Kid

Diesel defeated Tatanka

IRS defeated Doink the Clown

Earthquake defeated Bam Bam Bigelow

Jeff Jarrett defeated Koko B. Ware

Men on a Mission defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Quebecers to win the titles when Mabel scored the pin

WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Owen Hart

 

WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - September 14, 1994 (10,000)

IRS defeated the 1-2-3 Kid

WWF Women's Champion Alundra Blayze defeated Bull Nakano

Bam Bam Bigelow defeated Mabel

The Undertaker defeated Crush (sub. for Yokozuna) in a casket match

Jeff Jarrett defeated Doink the Clown

WWF Tag Team Champions Shawn Michaels & Diesel defeated Lex Luger & WWF IC Champion Razor Ramon via disqualification

WWF World Champion Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith defeated Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart

Maybe you could say if Davey wasn't a draw going into SS92, that they made him one that night?

[ButchReedMark]

WCW's TV in the UK was far better in 1993 than 1991 as well though, so I imagine that'd also be a factor. It was on Network TV other than a couple of regions, same old channel and time and day as World of Sport in fact. In 1991 it was far more fractured and always about 2am, if it was on that week in the same timeslot.

 

Not saying Davey wasn't a draw, but WCW's better TV would certainly contribute to the higher attendance figures for what was seen as an inferior brand over here.

 

I think we should get another handle on Davey as a UK draw, it's worth looking at how he drew on a smaller scale when he did small UK shows after leaving WCW or whenever it was. Give us a clue Lister buddy?

[Dooley]

WCW's TV in the UK was far better in 1993 than 1991 as well though, so I imagine that'd also be a factor. It was on Network TV other than a couple of regions, same old channel and time and day as World of Sport in fact. In 1991 it was far more fractured and always about 2am, if it was on that week in the same timeslot.

Ok, but was it demonstrably better than '94 where they had Hogan and Flair headline?

[ButchReedMark]

No, admittedly it wasn't. I don't even remember a 1994 tour which is odd. Touche.

 

Bit of a tone in that text written though. I don't come here to argue the toss.

[mookeighana]

I made pretty graphs yesterday and I thought I'd share:

 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharringt...cs/avghouseshow

[jdw]

The tricky parts on this are:

 

* in the Hogan Era there were multiple cards

* they scaled back to one card per night

* Brand-Split / reduced cards per week / Live TV Tapings

 

On the first, Hogan could be drawing 10K a night while Flair-Piper and Savage-Roberts are drawing 5K... or a heck of a lot less.

 

On the second, in the One Show era, the Champ gets all the credit of the one show without the drag of the B-Show or C-Shows.

 

On the third... it gets muddy:

 

- The Brand Split meant 2 champs

 

So one champ is getting credit for all of it, despite that specific belt bouncing across shows & pushes.

 

- Raw would run Fri-Mon and SD would run Sat-Tue

 

It's likely easier to draw on the weekend when kids don't have to go to school the next day. We certainly see this with the movie Box Office - it's a massive difference.

 

- Live TV bumps

 

I'm about 100% certain that if we studied the attendance numbers in terms of sellouts, we'll find that especially after the peak that Raw and SD tapings held their attendance better than non-tapings. People have been trained to come out to be on TV.

 

What that does with the numbers if broken out to look just at the cards with the Champs... hard to tell. A crapload of work if you don't have the card-by-card attendance data already in spreadsheets, Chris. On the other hand... if you do have it, and back to what you can pull from the 80s... it might make for an interesting look also at the various Hogan Dynasties, Savage's first run, and Warrior's run. Again... it would break them away from the secondary cards that might not be drawing. In addition, you might be able to break the two titles off into their own lines during the true Brand Split Era.

[JerryvonKramer]

[JerryvonKramer]

About 63 pages into this epic epicness. Must pause for breath.

 

One very small thing Kris:

 

AWA would then fire a big shot by running Wrestlerock at the Metrodome in front of 22,000 on April 20th spoiling their fans and just like what happened to Chicago after Super Clash look at the decline after a big show.

On that recent shoot, Greg Gagne mentioned that AWA could never draw for shit in May through July and it was a downtime for that area in terms of wrestling for whatever reason and started picking up again late August. He claimed that they once did a show in May that Hogan insisted on running despite them telling him this during his hottest period that did less than 1,0000. The figures seem to bear him out and as such the low crowds in June wouldn't have been a big surprise to them. Would be interested to see if the WWF had any sort of record drawing in the Minny-St. Paul area during the summer months.

 

It also speaks to John's point here:

 

Well look at what the AWA was offering up on their Thanksgiving competition show with Blackwell vs. Hayes and the annual battle royal on top. Hogan vs. Savage will smoke that one everytime.

Understood. More along the lines of the prior Hogan appearance: Hogan-Piper several months after Mania, drawing "4,500". That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Savage in November 1985 wasn't as big of a star as Piper yet, but attendance went up 11K?

 

I can see the WWF doing poorly on non-Hogan shows, as they do that into 1986 and 1987. But 4500 for Piper-Hogan and 4K for Hogan-Bundy (who had the big push leading up to Mania) sandwiching around that 15K for Hogan-Savage on Thanksgiving... doesn't that strike anyone else as odd?

Conforms to the pattern Greg outlines with attendences being down in the summer and up in the winter. Quirk of the area.

[khawk20]

Some of the talent that appeared at Wrestlerock was piggybacked over from the Crockett Cup so that had to have been a factor. The AWA roster was pretty thin at that point, at least when considering running a Supercard.

 

It's true about the AWA numbers dipping a lot in the summer, for the most part. In places like Minnesota and Winnipeg, there is only so much decent outdoor weather per year, and people spent it utside, camping, hunting, fishing, whatever. I know Winnipeg numbers dipped a ton every year in the summer months, as did the attendance at the monthly Civic Center shows.

 

Late August would be when the weather began to change into fall, and Verne geared his programs to begin in earnest around that time. The Blackwell-Brody feud, for example, kicked off at the beginning of June in 1984 at the big St. Paul Battleroyal, and Blackwell remained "injured" until the end of September. Brody, meanwhile, filled his time feuding with Jim Brunzell and Tony Atlas. In Winnipeg, Brody and Abby were around in April and May of that year (notably squashing the Baron and The Crusher in a non-title, no dq match), and then Brody was off the cards up there until November when he met Blackwell in their Winnipeg grudge return bout.

 

The Winnipeg April and May shows drew about 2600 and 1900, respectively, down from the usual 3500 - 4000 range. The numbers climbed back into and above the 3500-4000 range in the fall once again. St. Paul only ran a July show after the Battleroyal which drew respectably as it had Martel's first title defense against Bockwinkel on it (around 6500 IIRC), before running two shows in September, the first of which only drew 3000 for Martel-Rheingans and a Fabs-Heenan family Weasel suit match on Bobby's farewell tour of the area. Brody and Blackwell headlined the September 30th card 3 weeks later and did a much better number, before sellouts in October (Blackwell-Brody death match), November (Thanksgiving, LOD vs. Blackwell-Bundy) and December (LOD-Fabs, Martel-Garvin) returned the area to "normal" in terms of interest and attendance.

 

Something that should have been a tell-tale sign that things were going south to Verne was after the usual summer blahs in 1985 (1500-2000 a show in the summer, preceded by the 14000+ Star Cage show in April), the numbers never really rebounded from that range, with the exception of the 1985 Fall Battleroyal show, which saw the AWA and WWF go head to head with attendance being about even but still pretty high (10000+ at both shows). After that, they struggled. Without looking I know the shows were mostly below 3000, and the exceptions were not very much above that, and they never got it back. Hansen as champ, even programmed with incoming superhero Sgt. Slaughter, couldn't draw in St. Paul. Given the newness of Slaughter that was a VERY bad sign.

 

Winnipeg in 1985 followed the usual trend, holding a steady 3500+ attendance in the winter and spring, dipping in the summer, and climbing back up in the fall, and even beyond their usual numbers. The November, December, and Jaunary 1986 shows in Winnipeg all had above-average attendance. Vince getting their TV after the 1/86 show and taking over the Winnipeg arena was IMO a pretty substantial blow to the company as Winnipeg may have been their most viable market at that point.

 

....and, as I noted in the Territories thread, Vince never ran Winnipeg regularly and basically killed off the town because the local production the AWA did really got the fans to buy into the local storylines better than in most places. Their bouts and feuds were often unique, and the generic WWF material on their TV and occasionally at their arena did not appeal to the populace.

 

 

So yeah, AWA summer bad, AWA Spring-fall-winter good.

[jdw]

On that recent shoot, Greg Gagne mentioned that AWA could never draw for shit in May through July and it was a downtime for that area in terms of wrestling for whatever reason and started picking up again late August. He claimed that they once did a show in May that Hogan insisted on running despite them telling him this during his hottest period that did less than 1,0000. The figures seem to bear him out and as such the low crowds in June wouldn't have been a big surprise to them. Would be interested to see if the WWF had any sort of record drawing in the Minny-St. Paul area during the summer months.

 

It also speaks to John's point here:

 

Well look at what the AWA was offering up on their Thanksgiving competition show with Blackwell vs. Hayes and the annual battle royal on top. Hogan vs. Savage will smoke that one everytime.

Understood. More along the lines of the prior Hogan appearance: Hogan-Piper several months after Mania, drawing "4,500". That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Savage in November 1985 wasn't as big of a star as Piper yet, but attendance went up 11K?

 

I can see the WWF doing poorly on non-Hogan shows, as they do that into 1986 and 1987. But 4500 for Piper-Hogan and 4K for Hogan-Bundy (who had the big push leading up to Mania) sandwiching around that 15K for Hogan-Savage on Thanksgiving... doesn't that strike anyone else as odd?

Conforms to the pattern Greg outlines with attendences being down in the summer and up in the winter. Quirk of the area.

 

Except that the Hogan-Bundy that I mentioned was in January:

 

Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - July 21, 1985 (4,000)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Roddy Piper

 

Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - November 28, 1985 (15,000; near sell out)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Mr. T) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Bobby Heenan)

 

Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - January 20, 1986 (4,500)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated King Kong Bundy

 

Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 17, 1986 (11,500)

Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan

 

St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - November 2, 1986 (10,409)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff

 

St. Paul, MN - Civic Center - February 8, 1987 (13,383)

Hercules defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan

 

I'd buy the theory, exception:

 

* It doesn't fit Hogan-Bundy

* Hogan-Piper was rather big

 

July 21, 1985 was a Sunday in the Summer... so maybe everyone in the Twin Cities was up to something else. Then again, Hogan drew poorly opposite Ventura in March 1985 as well.

[JerryvonKramer]

4,000 in July is decent-average in that area if you look at what AWA were doing too. The only thing to extrapolate is that Hogan-Piper wasn't enough of a draw to get people to go to see the wrestling while the sun was out.

 

Seems like around 2,500-5,000 represent your "hardcores" in that area and anything less than that even in the summer is in the bottoming-out zone. And then the BIG gates in Winter go 10,000-20,000+. I suppose that Greg Gagne was saying that you'd never get one of those big gates in the summer, which is borne out by the data for for both AWA and WWF.

 

That doesn't explain Hogan-Bundy though. Who knows. AWA crowds through Jan and Feb 86 in that area before the big Wrestlerock show are also pathetic (sub-3,000). Was it a mini-burn out after this pissed them off?

 

King Kong Bundy defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via count-out

 

The gates were down that Christmas anyway, 7,000-8,500 are not good crowds for December -- less than half of the normal turnout. Although perhaps we can see there how Vince literally split the crowd - if the two sets of people are different, there's your usual crowd of 15,000+ sitting at two different shows.

[jdw]

4,000 in July is decent-average in that area if you look at what AWA were doing too. The only thing to extrapolate is that Hogan-Piper wasn't enough of a draw to get people to go to see the wrestling while the sun was out.

 

Seems like around 2,500-5,000 represent your "hardcores" in that area and anything less than that even in the summer is in the bottoming-out zone. And then the BIG gates in Winter go 10,000-20,000+. I suppose that Greg Gagne was saying that you'd never get one of those big gates in the summer, which is borne out by the data for for both AWA and WWF.

WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - June 17, 1984 (11,000)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned David Schultz with a clothesline after the challenger missed a top rope move; after the bout, Schultz hit the champion several times with the belt before Hogan eventually cleared the ring and regained his title belt; Okerlund was the guest ring announcer for the match (Hulkamania)

 

WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 26, 1984 (13,000)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Gene Okerlund defeated George Steele & Mr. Fuji (w/ Jesse Ventura) at 10:21 when Okerlund pinned Fuji after Hogan slammed his parnter onto Fuji and then pushed down on top of him during the cover; Jesse Ventura sat ringside for the match; after the bout, Ventura argued with the referee over the call and briefly faced off against Hogan until Hogan & Okerlund cleared the ring of Steele & Fuji (Best of the WWF Vol. 1, Hulk Still Rules)

 

We also are missing attendance data for a lot of the cards, and Kris focused on the Hogan stuff earlier in the thread.

 

I don't doubt that there's a grain of truth in what Greg is saying... but I don't believe it simply because Greg is saying it. It's not hard to find examples of him talking bullshit about the *business* side of the business. It's Kevin's comments that carry more weight.

 

That said:

 

* the WWF did draw good crowds in the Twin Cities on occasion in the summer

* there are probably several more that we simply don't know of because of the lack of results/attendance numbers

* Hogan-Pipper in a singles was a Huge Match in the WWF in 1985... actually their Biggest

* that's a number that the WWF would have thought was total shit rather than looking for an excuse

 

I don't think the third point needs to be explained. It's a match the WWF never blew off on TV, or came close to blowing off. It's almost certain that the WWF was gobsmacked by drawing that little for their biggest match there.

 

 

That doesn't explain Hogan-Bundy though. Who knows. AWA crowds through Jan and Feb 86 in that area before the big Wrestlerock show are also pathetic (sub-3,000). Was it a mini-burn out after this pissed them off?

The WWF was up and down. There doesn't always have to be an explanation for everything.

 

 

King Kong Bundy defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via count-out

 

The gates were down that Christmas anyway, 7,000-8,500 are not good crowds for December -- less than half of the normal turnout. Although perhaps we can see there how Vince literally split the crowd - if the two sets of people are different, there's your usual crowd of 15,000+ sitting at two different shows.

Both the WWF and AWA ran on Thanksgiving. Hogan vs Savage wasn't really even a major focused feud at that time. It's a sign of how over he got, and how quickly, that they were popping big gates around the horn. In turn, despite the push... it's quite possible that Bundy wasn't as over as Vince thought.

 

Which may be the reason the rematch didn't pop.

[mookeighana]

I took a stab a question someone asked me: What were Hulk Hogan's attendance numbers like, on average, in the 80s?

 

I looked at 19,000+ WWWF/WWF/WWE shows from thehistoryofwwe.com from 1963-2013 and pulled attendance numbers for the shows from the descriptions (about six thousand of the shows had attendance numbers).

 

Keep in mind:

* Attendance quotes from this era are hardly a scientific number because "announced" figures were exaggerated and I have no idea where these estimates originally came from.

* Obviously Hogan was going to work the largest cities. The other crews went to the smaller markets, so it's likely to be skewed towards the tours that Hogan (as the top guy) was on.

* I have estimates for a portion of the shows, usually about 40% from 1984 through 1991. The smaller cities are more likely to be the cities without estimates so you're getting an incomplete picture.

* Exceptionally large events (like PPVs) are going to skew the numbers which Hogan was very likely to work.

 

1984: 693 shows (65 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 94 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1985: 668 shows (84 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 169 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1986: 746 shows (106 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 185 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1987: 754 shows (123 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 225 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1988: 637 shows (66 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 191 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1989: 640 shows (88 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 146 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1990: 670 shows (63 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 220 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

1991: 490 shows (71 shows w/ attendance figures and Hogan matches, 133 shows with attendance figures without Hogan matches)

 

Average Attendance

1984: 10,857 attendance for shows with Hogan / 5,737 attendance for shows without Hogan

1985: 11,437 attendance for shows with Hogan / 6,407 attendance for shows without Hogan

1986: 11,756 attendance for shows with Hogan / 6,292 attendance for shows without Hogan

1987: 10,440 attendance for shows with Hogan / 4,770 attendance for shows without Hogan

1988: 10,354 attendance for shows with Hogan / 5,338 attendance for shows without Hogan

1989: 10,983 attendance for shows with Hogan / 5,802 attendance for shows without Hogan

1990: 10,404 attendance for shows with Hogan / 4,778 attendance for shows without Hogan

1991: 9,767 attendance for shows with Hogan / 5,233 attendance for shows without Hogan

1984-1991: 10,804 attendance for shows with Hogan / 5,483 attendance for shows without Hogan

 

Is it definitive?

 

As you go through the cities, you certainly find examples of both where Hogan drew more in a given city than the tours without him and times when the numbers are very similar.

 

Consider: a city like Vancouver, British Columbia; we have six shows with attendance figures - three with Hogan (average 10,500) and three without Hogan (average 4,148).

Still, they're in different years, with different line-ups. Here were the cards:

 

Hogan Shows

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - BC Place - July 5, 1986 (16,000+)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Big John Studd

Also included WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid

 

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - December 2, 1990 (about 10,000)

WWF Tag Team Champion Jim Neidhart pinned Demolition Smash

Black Bart pinned Koko B. Ware

The Legion of Doom defeated the Orient Express & Mr. Fuji in a handicap match

Tugboat pinned Dino Bravo

Davey Boy Smith pinned Buddy Rose

Sgt. Slaughter pinned Jim Duggan

WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect defeated Kerry Von Erich via count-out; Roddy Piper was the guest referee for the bout

Earthquake defeated Hulk Hogan via count-out

 

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - July 7, 1991 (5,500)

Ricky Steamboat vs. the Brooklyn Brawler

Tugboat vs. Koko B. Ware

Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty vs. Paul Roma & Hercules

Bret Hart vs. IRS

Virgil vs. Ted Dibiase

The Legion of Doom vs. WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys

Davey Boy Smith vs. WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan vs. Sgt. Slaughter (Desert Storm match)

 

Non-Hogan Shows

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - December 6, 1984 (1,700)

Gama Singh defeated Ben Bassarab

Bret Hart defeated Mr. Fuji

Moondog Spot defeated Steve Austin (Ray Evans)

Angelo Mosca defeated the Iron Sheik in a Death Match

WWF Women's Champion Wendi Richter defeated the Fabulous Moolah

George Wells defeated Nikolai Volkoff via disqualification

Tony Atlas defeated Moondog Rex

Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine via count-out

 

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - September 9, 1986 (7,000)

Owen Hart pinned Moose Morowski

Iron Mike Sharpe pinned Terry Gibbs

Danny Spivey pinned Bret Hart

Jim Neidhart pinned Mike Rotundo

Billy Jack Haynes defeated Bob Orton Jr. via disqualification

Tito Santana pinned Nikolai Volkoff

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated George Steele via count-out

Big & Super Machine defeated Big John Studd & King Kong Bundy via disqualification

 

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - July 21, 1990 (3,744)

Shane Douglas pinned Black Bart

WWF World Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Rick Rude

Paul Roma pinned Paul Diamond

Nikolai Volkoff pinned Boris Zhukov

Koko B. Ware pinned the Genius

The Bushwhackers defeated Greg Valentine & the Honkytonk Man via disqualification

The Big Bossman pinned Ted Dibiase

 

It is conclusive proof? Hardly; but it's an interesting example.

 

However, there's a lot of missing attendance figures for other cards in this city including:

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - February 25, 1985

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - January 26, 1985

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - November 9, 1986

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - May 16, 1986

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - September 5, 1986

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - January 22, 1987

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - May 14, 1987

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - September 1, 1987

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - November 10, 1987 (Had Hogan wrestling)

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - January 18, 1988 (Had Hogan wrestling)

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - July 1988

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - August 27, 1988

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - December 12, 1988

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - October 17, 1988

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - February 28, 1989

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - December 8, 1989

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - July 1, 1989

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - March 19, 1990

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - May 24, 1991

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - February 20, 1991

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - November 2, 1991

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - January 10, 1992

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - Pacific Coliseum - June 11, 1992

 

Without all of these other datapoints, there's certainly a lot of selection bias and incomplete datasets in play when you're looking at which cities Hogan went on tour and which cities Hogan did not.

[jdw]

It's consistent with what Dave wrote a number of times during the 80s, that can be paraphrased:

 

"Hogan is drawing, nothing else is."

 

That's wasn't a 100% rule. At times Hogan had light shows. At other times a city and/or the WWF was hot it would draw without Hogan. At other times something like Savage-Ted drew... then again, Hogan was kinda gone in that stretch.

 

But overall... sounds about right.

 

The trickier thing is to do comps. Hogan probably wasn't working Bakersfield much, or other two bit smaller arenas. He has a bit of an advantage because he was working large buildings for the most part.

 

So Hogan MSG vs Non-Hogan MSG, Hogan Boston Garden vs Non-Hogan Boston Garden, Hogan Houston Summit vs Non-Hogan Houston Summit, etc. are likely interesting data sets to look at.

 

* * * * *

 

I'd also flip it, thought it's harder data to get at: Dave did tend to talk about JCP cards drawing more with Flair than without Flair. I'm not sure that the difference would be as large, but it would be interesting data to look at. Again, same building vs same building is likely the data to look at. There does some a point where pretty much every JCP card of note ends up having Flair on it as (i) he became a House Champion, and (ii) they didn't tend to run Big Arenas with split crews like the WWF did (i.e. Hogan working MSG 5-6 cards a year while others headlined the rest of the shows). So at a certain point, there really aren't comps to draw good data from.

 

John

[MoS]

This is an absolutely fascinating read. Loss, can you do something bout the formatting of old threads like this? The line breaks disappear and reading blocks of text is a very tedious task.

 

As for Hogan-Austin comparisons, I have Hogan above Austin for precisely what he helped Vince do in the 80s. Although Austin at his peak was probably a bigger dra than Hogan at his peak, the sheer importance of Hogan's run is too much. However, Austin made the WWF into such a gargantuan money-making machine that the brand, to this date, is a huge draw, surviving numerous scandals. That is not something you can say about Hogan. The WWE has never been in as bad a shape as it was in the mid-90s, and Austin deserves some credit for it.

[Matt D]

If any note needs to be formatted, it's this one (and you know, my Buddy Rose stuff. That's hell enough to read as it is I bet, even without formatting problems).

[Loss]

I have been working on re-formatting threads for several months. There aren't enough hours in the day. I can only do so much, but I think the best bet is for people to edit their own old posts when they come across them.

[Matt D]

This was generally the thread I showed people when trying to explain PWO to them.

[PeteF3]

Pro-tip: If you right-click a page and click on "View Source," you can find the text of any post in its original format.