Loss Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I don't know the answer to that question, but I would guess the Luger turn was decided on sometime in late April during the build to Wrestle War '89. Because of the angle with Terry Funk, it was the first NWA show in quite a while that seemed to be very clearly laying the groundwork for the next show to follow. Also, around this time, they left Techwood Drive and moved to Center Stage and really seemed to be putting a strong effort into putting out a better wrestling product. The shows were more angle-driven and they were airing more marquee matches. Also, at least initially, that Center Stage crowd was hot. I remember Dave actually downplaying the positives of this a little in the WON at the time, believe it or not. He said there was nothing wrong with improving their product, but on its own, it wasn't enough to turn things around. They needed a promotional machine, they needed backing from TBS, and they needed an angle that was red hot, not just good. Back to Luger, I'm sure the finish of Wrestle War '89 was designed to turn Luger heel. He was hinting at the turn right away after Wrestle War '89, doing a promo on that weekend's show about how he was "sick and tired" of playing by the rules. This is motivating me to get back to recapping WONs and really dig into '89, but for Chrissakes, I have too many projects going on at this board. I am only one man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I think the best thing that could be said was that Herd handled it poorly, and it did screw us out of what would have been a nice series with Lex. Yes, it was so promising, with Steamboat bringing the hate more than he ever did against Savage. You wonder if they knew when Hayes won the title from Lex that Lex would be programed with Steamer after Rick dropped the NWA Title back to Flair? It really didn't make a lot of sense to have Lex do a quicky turn around with Hayes only to see Hayes go back to tags, and also take away they vibe that Ricky might lift the title from Lex. The US Title just didn't bounce around that much in those days. Doesn't seem like it was planned in advance to me. Luger getting the US title back at a house show seems like them just scratching the entire Hayes feud and going to a different direction, with Luger being critized for his arrogance before the heel turn on Steamboat. And Hayes getting the tag titles with Garvin seems like a way to replace his US title reign. Back to Luger, I'm sure the finish of Wrestle War '89 was designed to turn Luger heel. He was hinting at the turn right away after Wrestle War '89, doing a promo on that weekend's show about how he was "sick and tired" of playing by the rules. Luger got the US title back at a house show on May 22th, do you remember if that promo happened after or before ? Anyway, I thought the way they handled him getting back his title was kinda odd, since the whole Luger vs Hayes feud was pretty hot, introducing the comeback of the Freebirds. It was bizarre to have Hayes get the upset win on PPV, and Luger getting the title back two weeks later on a non-televised show, at a time title didn't bounce around like John said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 That promo was before, and Luger even hooked Hayes' tights to win the title back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I always thought they should have done a regular Starrcade '89card with Flair vs Muta, Luger vs Sting and Steiners vs Warriors. All matches that happened, although Flair-Muta would have gone much longer than 2 minutes. On the undercard, they could have done (assuming Funk was willing to do more matches) Funk vs Sawyer (former J-Tex guy vs new J-Tex guy), MX vs Dudes rematch, Pillman vs, um, somebody. Doom vs Samoans? OK this is a really crappy undercard but I think those top matches would have worked better as title bouts than in the Iron Man/Team tournaments. And the show shouldn't have been on a freakin' Wednesday. As for Steamboat, the 8/14/89 WON says he told John Arezzi that after agreeing to terms they tried to cut $50,000 from his salary and he was so insulted that he backed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ric Flair vs Great Muta - WCW 11/25/1989 Interesting to see Muta working to Ric's strenghts, that is not going for a spotfest like he did with Sting. Muta would actually not do one of his signature highspots, as they work basically a scientific match on the mat mixed with some stiff chops from Flair. I really dig Flair's fiery babyface work from the Terry Funk angle and on : no begging, no Flair flop, no being thrown out of the top rope, much more agressive, showing the fiery babyface attitude with tons of fire on comebacks and basically kicking ass, which was really new after a decade of being a bitch. That should have looked pretty refreshing at the time, and that was the perfect way to work for him at this point of his career, being the legendary 6 time champ people finally got to cheer for. Too bad it didn't last as people were going apeshit for face Flair. Really good match which rightfully ends on a dq, as Dragon Master (Kendo Nagasaki) jumps in the ring as soon as Flair puts on the figure four on Muta, which was a nice way of keeping the hold over strong, after Flair had defeated Funk with it at the previous Clash. Great post match beatdown with Muta, Nagasaki and Sawyer. The match you won't see at Starrcade 89, and much better (although less spectacular) than the Sting match earlier in the year. On a side note, Buzz Sawyer looked absolutely amazing killing jobbers. Poor guys, Sawyer really put the hurt on them. It's a shame he was fucked up in the head, this guy was just awesome in every way in the ring and on promos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 From Graham's site: NWA @ Atlanta, GA - Center Stage Theatre - June 1989 World Championship Wrestling - 6/10/89 - featured pre-taped footage from a different television taping of Jim Ross conducting an interview with Terry Funk regarding his upcoming match at the Clash of the Champions against Ricky Steamboat; after Funk referred to Steamboat's child as a "pig-nosed half-breed," Steamboat interrupted with he and Funk sharing words; moments later, NWA US Champion Lex Luger appeared in the studio, called for the tape to be stopped, and said he was done with the politics and was upset that he wasn't on the upcoming Clash show; Luger then argued that he should be the top contender to Flair's title instead of Funk or Steamboat; Luger then called for Flair to either wrestle or give up his title and said he would be at the Clash; after Luger left, the remainder of the Steamboat interview was shown in which Steamboat said Funk should be happy for even being in the Top 10 This aired 4 days before the Clash. The 05/13/89 WCW had "prior to the bout, pre-taped comments from Lex Luger were shown in which he said he was going after NWA US Champion Michael Hayes and no one would stop him" type of comments. I would be interested when Dave has "Lex turns on Steamboat" in the WON. Wade doesn't have it until Lex wins the title back, and is very specific that we should expect Lex to turn on Ricky at the Clash. When Hayes won the title, Wade had nothing on the plans. In fact, his predictions the issue before are kind of funny: Lex racks Hayes while Steamboat nc Flair due to Funk run in. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Starrcade 89 A truly mixed bag. On one hand, the Iron Man Single tournament worked really well and was weel booked, although Muta being basically jobbed out was disapointing. They did a good job with the points so that Luger, Flair or Sting could still win depending on who and how would win the last match. And they did a good job working the last match up to 20 seconds before the time limit. Of the four, Sting was the worst, by a wide margin, which I expected by that point. But he ended up looking like a star finally pinning Flair in a non-title bout, and it was a perfect setup for the months to come, transitioning the fading Flair vs J-tex to Flair vs Sting. Simple, efficient booking. On the other hand, the Tag Team Round Robin really dragged and was anti climatic, with all Samoans match toward the end, which also happened to be the worst matches on the show. Doom vs Steiners vs Road Warriors matches were decent in a bomb throwing way, but there wasn't any real good match to speak of, and all seemed very repetitive (again, that was expected since all those teams are pretty limited in doing power spots). Doom ended up looking like complete jobbers, which is either totally dumb or just a bit racist (I just wonder). The Samoans having a poor and sloppy final match with the RW, and it really accomplished nothing to have the Warriors win at this point. It felt like the crowd was tired of those matches by the end. Also, despite the good lightings in the entrance ramp during the formal introduction of the participants, the overall production was pretty awful, with the theme music being played only half the time; the show ending with Gordon Solie interviewing the RW in a totally pointless promo and Sting and Flair not having the time to get their promos in. Just embarrassing and total amateur hour. The Iron Man tournament mixed in with regular matches would have worked so much better and kept the crowd hot. You could have thrown in Steiners vs Doom, MX vs Dynamic Dudes, and some random shit like Tommy Rich vs Mike Rotunda and Brian Pillman vs Buzz Sawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 El-P, in case you weren't aware, Flair/Sting actually went like 17 minutes because Flair messed up the timing. They were doing a countdown live in the arena, but Flair hadn't gotten to the figure four yet, so they just kept wrestling for another two minutes or so. Lex Luger is the rightful winner of this tournament! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 El-P, in case you weren't aware, Flair/Sting actually went like 17 minutes because Flair messed up the timing. They were doing a countdown live in the arena, but Flair hadn't gotten to the figure four yet, so they just kept wrestling for another two minutes or so. Lex Luger is the rightful winner of this tournament! Ah ah ! Didn't noticed that. I was listening to the announcers, and by the time Flair got to the figure four setup, they were talking about how there was 30 seconds left. Kayfabe, always kayfabe. Honestly, Luger looked like a much better wrestler than Sting in 89. Sting was a bunch of athletic spots and was pretty clueless about everything else. I can't stand his way of just stopping selling from nowhere. This is something that annoys me whoever does it, from Hogan to Lawler, but Sting's no-selling just comes from nowhere and never seems like he's blocking pain or getting so pissed he's not feeling it. As far as booking goes, the tournament really made the three major names in the company look strong, which is something that has been a lost art for a long time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Really enjoyed Muta/Luger and wished they coulda had a long non tourney match in 89. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Luger not only sold a knee injury for half the show, but actually found a way to change his trunks after every single match of the night. If that's not workrate, what is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Luger not only sold a knee injury for half the show, but actually found a way to change his trunks after every single match of the night. If that's not workrate, what is? These are the small aesthetic things I enjoyed in US wrestling. It fit the character too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Watching the debut of the new Skycrappers in retrospect, The Undertaker gimmick really made Mark Callous. Sid had megastar written all over him. When you see Mean Mark Callous taking his place, not so much. Not much presence, not much charisma, just a tall red-haired guy with pale skin and a few spectacular spots. Funny how things worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I saw that match and thought he had a ton of potential. Not the presence of Sid at that point, but a huge guy who could move. It was obvious in a few years he would be big. I wish they had one match with all three Skyscrapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I have a couple of questions: 1) Did Harley Race have a role on WCW TV before the '91 Bash? And did he work any TV matches in '90-'91 besides the Bash '90 match with Rich? 2) Did Zbyszko have a role on TV before WrestleWar '91 or was his appearance there a surprise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 WCW 1990.02.17 Great episode. A few fillers including a fun squash from the new team of Kevin Sullivan & Cactus Jack, and Doug Furnas gettinga win over perennial JTTS Jacko Victory, now part of teh Royal Family and managed by Lord Littlebrook no less. Plus a very good Rock'n Roll Express vs MX match with Terry Funk on commentary, which was quite fun. But the show featured some great angles and matches destined to put over the 4 Horsemen as ruthless brutes taking over WCW : _Brian Pillman had challenged Ric Flair the week before, and Flair confronts him. A non scheduled match is booked for the show. _After a Steiner squash, their interview is interrupted by the Andersons, who ask them to not show up at Wrestle War, or they'll get the same treatment as Sting did. The Anderson cheap shot the Steiners, and Arn DDT's Scott on the floor _Interview from Sting at the hospital. Got busted good by the Horsemen and could be out for 6 months to a year. He says he wants to come back before that. _Arn Anderson vs Shane Douglas for the TV title : really good match, with Arn destroying Douglas's left arm after he let him shine for a while. Douglas's selling was fantastic, and finally the referee stops the match before Shane gets his arm broken down. Ole distract the referee after the end of the match so that Arn can still torture Shane, before the Steiner make the save. _Ric Flair vs Brian Pillman : excellent match, Pillman was on fire at the time. Flair was back to the total heel Flair structure, but still busted out some cool suplexes like the butterfly, and actually dove from the top rope (got punched in the gut for it, but still). Stiff chops from left and right. Woman, who looked ridiculously hot, missed Pillman as she was supposed to slap him to break a 3 count, and Pillman didn't sell his leg after the figure four spot, but outside of that, just a super solid match. Pillman really looked like the next big thing on the babyface front. Hum... too bad he was settled with Z Man at the same time, he was ready to get some single gold already. _The main angle was the Horsemen threatening Luger so he would walk out of the title match at WW. They gave him one hour to think about it, and Ole was just great in his role. Luger showed up at the end of the show and punched Ole in the nose as an answer, and disposed from teh three Horsemen on the stage. Quite effective face turn after a great heel run in 1989. This was not taped at Center Stage, and the crowd in that town was just red hot, I mean Korakuen 90-like hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Pillman should have been a bigger babyface star than he was. He was super over with the live crowds, had a more dynamic style than the average wrestler at the time, was a solid promo and most importantly could work with anyone. His matches with Flair, Luger and Windham are among their best from that period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 WCW 1990.02.17 I love the moment during the Luger interview where the Horsemen come out and Flair trips on the steps coming into the ring. Flair covered by selling his humiliation! The crowd pops huge for that and Luger even has trouble keeping a straight face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 They made so many terrible booking decisions around that time. I'm not even sure why they turned Flair heel. Fans wanted to cheer him, and his face turn was way overdue when it happened, as he had gotten really stale. Yet they turn him back 9 months later. It also took the steam off Luger. Even if Luger hadn't turned, he was destined to be the #2 heel with Flair around. It was in the WON that at one point, the plan was for Ole to turn on Flair and manage Luger. Arn and Tully coming in and siding with Luger and Ole, leaving Flair, Sting, Pillman and a newly turned Muta would have been great stuff. Really, heel Luger versus face Flair had some milage. While they ran that match quite a bit on house shows, they never really met with that dynamic in a major match outside of Starrcade '89 (which gave away the match in a completely meaningless way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 WCW 1990.02.17 I love the moment during the Luger interview where the Horsemen come out and Flair trips on the steps coming into the ring. Flair covered by selling his humiliation! The crowd pops huge for that and Luger even has trouble keeping a straight face. You remember every detail. Yeah, that was a funny one. Flair selling it made it great. Yeah, right there... they could have flipped the result of Pillman & Zenk's match, and worked with something like this: * start the show announcing Sting's knee injury and that he'll be out of WrestleWar * earlier on this TV show Pillman steps in to challenge Flair for the title * later promo of Flair & the Horsemen thinking Pillman is another snot nosed punk like Sting, and they'll take care of him like they took care of Sting * Horsemen come out to cause Pillman & Zenk to lose * Zenk & Pillman come out the Flair & Arn vs R'n'R match for a brawl-o-rama * batshit crazy Flair interview about how Pillman has gotten under his skin You have enough time to send this to Atlanta to quickly cut those things into the end of what to have in the can for WCWSN. No need to show the whole Pillman & Zenk vs MX match and Flair & Arn vs Morton & Gibson matches, and instead use that as a teaser to watch WWW and TME the following week "to see how this all unfolded". That would have worked pretty well. What was the deal with Doc ? I guess they only wanted to feed him to Luger, I don't see Doc getting the US title while working in Japan for both companies at the same time. The thing is, the babyface front wasn't exactly loaded on top. You had Sting as clear N°1, then Doc as N°2 probably, and then it was down to Pillman. The company was really structured around tag teams at this point, the Steiners being directly under Sting as the N°2 babyfaces, much more than Doc was, equally with the Road Warriors maybe, who were becomig stale by that point. Then you had the Dynamic Dudes and Rock'n Roll Express coming back to fill the undercard. I don't get what the need was to put Z Man & Pillman together, especially since Pillman was over already in single. Maybe it was a way to give some rub to Zenk, but although they were a pretty good team, Zenk looked like Pillman's albatros. I agree with Dylan, Pillman should have been much bigger than he was as a babyface, he had *it*, the work, the good matches, the connection with the fans. They made so many terrible booking decisions around that time. I'm not even sure why they turned Flair heel. Fans wanted to cheer him, and his face turn was way overdue when it happened, as he had gotten really stale. Yet they turn him back 9 months later. It also took the steam off Luger. Even if Luger hadn't turned, he was destined to be the #2 heel with Flair around. It was so out of the blue too. You had Woman making advances to Flair the weeks prior to Clash, and it looked like they were going in the direction of "Will Flair turn to be with Woman", but all of a sudden at the Clash, the Horsemen turn on Sting, next thing you know Woman is with them on TV, and that's it. What ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Rock'n Roll Express vs Ric Flair & Arn Anderson (Main Event 1990.02.18) Fuck editing. Seriously. This match was so great at first. Flair & Arn just bumped their ass off for Ricky & Robert, just two little bitches. The crowd ate it. You can argue it made them look weak, but I don't think it's the case. That was Flair & Arn, they can do that and still keep credibility when they finally kick Ricky's ass. But that doesn't come before a while, you feel they really want to give the audience some fun times. Finally they get on control, and it's as good as Arn and Flair can make it in 1990 against Ricky Morton. Then something odd happens, Morton makes a no-sell comeback routine. Yeah, makes me look like an idiot; or maybe it's because of Flair who's just demanding that from anyone he works for, be it Luger or Morton, another Flair stample you can knock him for. But that's not the odd thing, the odd thing is that they cut to the crowd, and when they get back Ricky is still there but Flair is obviously bleeding. 30 seconds later, they go into the finish without a hot tag. Yep. I guess it happened because Flair bladed, and there was a no-blood policy on TV, but it ruined the ending of what was an excellent match until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 That's it, after being tolerable the first weeks months, the Fabulous Freebirds are officially going into my shitlist. By early 1990, they were unbearable. They totally kill the life out of their matches against Zenk & Pillman at WrestleWar. They don't do shit and still botch spots, restholds galore, I swear they must have gone through 10 pure resthold sequences in that match, don't have any offense, don't bump well, Garvin being the worst of the two. Didn't take long before they got on my nerves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 With Flair having the book, he was always going to turn back heel sooner rather than later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Gone back to watch some WCW 1991, I'm in March/April. I'm amazed at being entertained by the ridiculous Norman/Abby/Rotunda vs Kevin Sullivan/Cactus Jack feud. It's stupid, but the face trio is so random, and I like Cac/Sullivan, so... Early Cactus Jack is an interesting beast. I wonder if that's the only Abby face stint in his career ? Always odd to see Abby without the blood. I didn't notice before that Bloom and Enos had a stint in WCW at this point as the Minnesota Wrecking Crew II. These guys really are underrated, they would have deserved more high profile matches, they were really good. I lile Ole much better in his manager role, because quite frankly, the whole Andersons deal by this point was quite dated. Jimmy Garvin is officialy the laziest wrestler in the company. And Johnny Ace had a single match with Flair which Flair couldn't make any good with his usual routine. That's how bad Ace was at this point. MX vs Zenk & Pillman is a pretty good undercard feud, and Cornette is gold on promos as usual. Mostly tag team programs, with the Rock'n Roll vs Freebirds feud (which was lame), and the RW vs Doom. On that topic, it's interesting to see Animal vs Simmons have a pretty bad and boring match, whil Reed vs Hawk was quite good in a bomb throwing way. Things are clearly moving slowly at this point. They show Sting making progress after the surgery, preparing him for a big comeback. In a way, it didn't bode well for Luger, who should have got the title at this point, he was hot and since he chocked once before, another loss would just not look good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Interesting tidbit from the WON at the time: Flair/Luger at Capital Combat was originally going to be hair vs hair! No idea how they would have handled that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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