WWF Ongoing Thread

[Bix]

The Big Red X was a WWF staple. It was a nice way to make the angle seem bloodier than it really was, which you can see from

.

[Kronos]

The Big Red X was a WWF staple. It was a nice way to make the angle seem bloodier than it really was, which you can see from

.

Oh, that was part of the original PPV broadcast? That works better, then. I genuinely thought it was a modern edit.

[NintendoLogic]

So I finally watched Hogan-Andre from WM3. I'd always been hesitant to check it out since all I'd heard was that it was an atrocious match with no redeeming qualities beyond historical significance. Now that I've seen it, I'm trying to figure out what's supposed to be wrong with it. It told a good story, the pacing was deliberate but not excessively so, and the crowd heat was off the charts. I honestly don't see how it's worse than the Hansen/Andre match that everyone was creaming their jeans over on the New Japan set. At the very least, the finish was a million times better.

[Loss]

As I always say when the topic comes up, check out the attempted piledriver on the floor spot and how gingerly Hogan takes that bump. It's horrible. It's bad enough that it ruins the whole match for me.

[Bix]

I honestly don't see how it's worse than the Hansen/Andre match that everyone was creaming their jeans over on the New Japan set.

As someone who thinks that the WM3 match is (absurd & ridiculous piledriver spot aside) a fun, psychologically sound spectacle: Really? Hansen-Andre has everything the you'd want from a big clash of the titans type match that WM3 match doesn't have.

[Exposer]

Hulk Hogan vs. One Man Gang, Philadelphia 12/5/87

 

This was all right, but something tells me there wasn't a hidden gem Hogan/OMG brawl.

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Philadelphia 9/28/85

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Toronto 10/13/85

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, MSG 12/30/85

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, MSG 1/27/86

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, lumberjack match, MSG 2/17/86

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Detroit 4/26/86

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Boston 5/24/86

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Boston 6/27/86

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Rochester, NY 6/3/87

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Toronto 4/23/89

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, MSG 4/24/89

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Boston 6/3/89

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Fresno 8/9/89

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, London 10/10/89

Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man Randy Savage, Paris 10/13/89

 

I was kind of amused how these guys could have the same match years apart. I complained that Boss Man and Hogan had the same match over and over again, but this was even worse. Their very first match-up in Philly has insane heat and while it's mostly stalling it's extremely effective when they finally do lock-up. Other memorable bouts are the 1/86 MSG bout where Savage bleeds a gusher and the 5/86 Boston match where Hogan bleeds a gusher. Other than that, the first post-WM V rematch where Sherri pops up makes a change from the Elizabeth schtick they did all the time and the 2/86 lumberjack match offers a different dynamic from their usual bout. I guess my overall impression was that they could've done more. It should've been the WWF version of Flair vs. Luger, but instead of an epic mainevent we got the same 10 minute match each time. Prior to watching these I would've thought that Savage vs. Hogan symbolised the era, but now I'm not really sure. I wouldn't call any of their matches great and I was pretty fucking sick of the match-up by the end of '89. My opinion of Savage as a worker took a bit of a hit watching these and my enthusiasm for Hogan was tempered as well, although '89 Hogan seems to be the big problem so far.

 

Incidently, did Hogan and Piper have a match worth watching?

The War to Settle to Score is sort of a spectacle in a way but not a great match at all to be honest. Any of the Piper-Hogan I've seen so far for the WWF set has left a lot to be desired. They have a couple of handhelds from 84 that are okay but nothing more.

[NintendoLogic]

Part of it is my preference for well-structured matches with a clear narrative flow over more free-form chaotic ones. Also, I thought the Hansen match had too much working of holds for a 12-minute hoss fight. Less armbars, more clubbering. I recognize that my view is likely a minority one. The piledriver spot in the Hogan match is pretty bad, but it wasn't a dealbreaker for me.

[Kevin Ridge]

I haven't seen the Hansen/Andre match yet so not making any comments about that. However, I've always enjoyed watching Hogan/Andre from WM3. Probably seen it now close to 20 times. I know it's not a great match in itself, seems to be hated by wrestling fans and the piledriver spot is pretty weak. But I still dig the moment from Andre's entrance to the ring with no music to the bodyslam/leg drop finish that still gives me goosebumps. Surprised to hear from someone seeing it for only the first time.

[Jingus]

I've mentioned on here my enjoyment of the Andre/Hogan match. Perfectly booked, expertly sold, facial expressions from both men were excellent. It was a tad slow, and yes the piledriver spot and Andre "head-butting" the post both looked like crap, but it got the job done and delivered everything it had to.

 

On the other hand, it's not even in the same ballpark as the Hansen match. That one had a feeling of viciousness and hatred that Hogan couldn't begin to equal. Yeah, it's slowed down by the standard New Japan tradition of sitting around in holds for too damn long, but the rest of it is off the chain.

[ohtani's jacket]

The Big Red X was a WWF staple. It was a nice way to make the angle seem bloodier than it really was, which you can see from

.

This angle was such a defining part of my wrestling fandom that I sought out the hair match. Not good.

 

Neither was Hogan/Dibiase, Dibiase/Jake, Hogan/Bad News or a bunch of other stuff I tried to get into. Is it just me or was there a slump after '87?

 

The most enjoyable things I've watched lately are the coronation ceremonies for Haku, Duggan and Savage. Haku's coronation is awesome (esp Bobby), Duggan's features some great moments with Hacksaw wearing the crown and Savage's has a nice poem from the Genius.

 

Also watched some Backlund matches. The Hogan match and the Race match to be exact. The Hogan match is the best possible technical match Hogan could have in the WWF I guess, but after getting into Backlund during the Smarkschoice WWF poll I was kind of annoyed by him this time round. Way too much lying around in a headlock or some other hold, working a spot, going back to the hold. The Race match was the same. Yeah, it was Backlund's thing and there were cool spots and all, but why would every guy he faced get caught in his headlock and go through the motions? That's as annoying as any other worker's repetitive schtick. The Race match is disappointing if you're expecting something special, but serviceable if you realise it was never going to be an all-time classic. The layout of the match wasn't very good and neither was the selling, but there were some cool spots and the crowd was hot.

[Jingus]

I like Race and love Backlund, but hated their match together. Sometimes two guys just have a bad night, and that one was awful. Killing time with go-nowhere holds is one of my pet peeves, and this one definitely felt like they were trying to run out the clock. You can never exactly know why two guys had a stinker like that; maybe one of the dueling World Champions didn't trust the other guy, so they weren't trying anything tricky or complicated out there. Or maybe one of them just had diarrhea that night and was physically incapable of doing more. You always gotta remember, there's usually a reason why a guy has a bad match, most of the time it's not something they'd deliberately choose to do. I once saw Hansen and Tsuruta have an insultingly boring match where they did nothing but barely-sold lackadaisical armbars the entire time; since we've seen both men do much better, including against each other, it's safe to assume that something was wrong with one or both of them which kept them from excelling that night.

[Ricky Jackson]

I'd take Backlund/Race over Backlund/Hogan, but both were pretty good matches IMO. Maybe not amongest Bob's best ever (I think the Race match is really quite good, though it seems like I'm in the minority with that opinion), but far from his worst big stage matches as world champ.

[Kronos]

Goldberg vs The Rock -- 4/27/03, Backlash

 

I had this crazy idea this morning to watch the Goldberg 2003 PPV matches. To that end, I cue'd up 7 matches (including a RAW match with Michaels). This one was the first. And the last. I just don't see how I could take any more, especially when some of the later ones have HHH. I am already tapping out.

 

This match may just as well be the greatest performance of The Rock's career. It's easily better than the carryjob DDP did at Havoc 1998 because in that match, Goldberg actually wrestled. In this one, Rock basically comes into the ring and dances around the hat-rack that is Goldberg for 15+ minutes. And the crowd loves it. If I went back and watched, I'll bet I would count 8 moves from Goldberg, all of which The Rock sells like death. He prances around, stooges, plays to the crowd -- it just might be the greatest single wrestler performance since Graham Chapman wrestled himself.

 

The crowd is torn, too. Rock tries so hard to come across as an opponent-burying bitch-face in his prematch interview with Teri. By the end, he even cracks himself up, and the crowd has fallen in love with him all over again -- to the point that there are no Goldbeerrrrrrrrgggggg chants when Goldberg enters. (there are later, but that's when the crowd has calmed down from loving Rocky.)

 

I have never seen anyone cover up a main event wrestler's limitations the way Rock does here. I don't know that Jericho, Michaels, Hunter, or Kane are up to the task. Unless you guys tell me those matches are must-see, I have to pass.

[Kronos]

sorry double post

[JNLister]

Most of the talk I've seen of Hogan-Andre being horrible is from 87 itself, either in post-show reviews or year end awards. With that context you have to remember that people were looking at it without the benefit of 25 years of it being hyped as the most iconic moment in wrestling industry, and on the night itself you're talking about people watching it barely half an hour after seeing Steamboat-Savage.

[ohtani's jacket]

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team

 

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Boston 10/12/85

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Toronto 10/13/85

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Toronto 12/15/85

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Mid-Hudson Civic Center 1/7/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Philadelphia 1/11/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, MSG 1/26/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Philadelphia 2/8/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, SNME 2/15/86

The British Bulldogs & Lou Albano vs. The Dream Team & Johnny V, MSG 3/16/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, Wrestlemania II 4/7/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, SNME 5/1/86

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team, MSG 5/19/86

The British Bulldogs & Lou Albano vs. The Dream Team & Johnny V, Civic Center 10/29/86

 

Greg Valentine vs. Davey Boy Smith, MSG 4/22/86

Dynamite Kid vs. Brutus Beefcake, MSG 4/22/86

 

This was a pretty good feud once you get past the fact that it's not Southern style tag wrestling and that there's heel in peril and other structural quirks. You've basically got three good workers involved and Beefcake trying harder than at any other point in his career. For the curious I would suggest just watching the two Toronto matches as the stuff from '86 doesn't really add anything to the '85 matches. I was quite impressed with their TV matches, however. By WWF standards they were quite good and featured plenty of action. I particularly liked the short, non-title match from the Mid-Hudson Civic Center and the first SNME match. That fireman's carry and super diving headbutt the Bulldogs did was insane. The December Toronto version was my favourite. The singles matches weren't bad. The Valentine match was a typically solid Greg Valentine match with some good spots. The Dynamite Kid match was the clipped version from the Bulldogs tape but also had some good action. Thoroughout these matches I didn't see too many flaws with the Bulldogs and I thought DK did some good stuff. There were flaws with the WWF style of tag wrestling, but in general the Bulldogs were pretty good. It kind of reminded me of Strike Force vs. The Islanders in that all of the matches were decent but none of them were great and thus they all kind of blur together into a stream of decentness.

[Kronos]

Goldberg vs Mark Henry -- 10/06/03, RAW

http://youtu.be/6m-Z7z0C-q4

 

Well, after being talked into checking out some of the other Goldberg 2003 matches, I decided to start by indulging my man crush on Mark Henry. Looks like Goldie has won the title since we last checked in, from HHH at Unforgiven. That's what I get for watching out of order.

 

This match runs for about 5 min before ending on a run-in, and it's actually pretty good. Henry plays it like a monster, attacking Goldberg as he enters the ring and not really letting up. My favorite is the shoulder breaker -- it sells Henry as seriously strong. Goldberg gets some good shots in, too. Most interesting, perhaps, are the keylock that Henry uses and the armbar from Goldberg -- good for them for trying to mix it up a bit. Goldberg gets his big babyface pop when he finally bodyslams Henry.

 

Not bad, Fellas. Everyone comes out of this one looking good.

 

Goldberg vs Ric Flair -- 8/04/03, RAW

 

Special referee Randy Orton means this won't end well for Goldberg. Jesus, Flair looked old and flabby even in 2003. He works a pretty smart match here, using sneak attacks, brass knucks, and Orton's help to try to put down Goldberg. Goldberg is tough to beat, though. He tosses Flair around like he's a cruiserweight. (Seriously, is there any reason Flair needed to be bumping this much for a man his age?)

 

More of an angle than a match. Michaels runs in at the end to knock out Orton and help end the match, but not before he almost makes out with Goldberg in the ring.

 

Another good job protecting Goldberg and putting over your heels.

[Johnny Sorrow]

-- it just might be the greatest single wrestler performance since Graham Chapman wrestled himself.

Ha, that's awesome dude.

[Kronos]

There were flaws with the WWF style of tag wrestling, but in general the Bulldogs were pretty good. It kind of reminded me of Strike Force vs. The Islanders in that all of the matches were decent but none of them were great and thus they all kind of blur together into a stream of decentness.

 

When I watched Bulldogs vs Rougeaus from Summerslam 88, I thought the Bulldogs were not good. Their moves were okay, but they didn't give anything to the R's. There was no sense to me that they were working together with their opponents to make a great match. I thought they felt like legit bullies. (and they were the Face team)

 

Is that just a weak match? Or perhaps the fellas had weakened by 1988? Or too roid-ragey to play nice?

[Kronos]

-- it just might be the greatest single wrestler performance since Graham Chapman wrestled himself.

Ha, that's awesome dude.

 

Well, that Chapman video is one of the greatest rasslin videos I have ever seen.

[Matt D]

I feel like the Bulldogs were the poster children of heel in peril wrestling. They took way too much of a lot of their matches. It might have been more of a problem in their later run though.

[ohtani's jacket]

There was a HIP stretch in most of the Dream Team matches where Beefcake would eat a bunch of offense usually from Davey Boy Smith, but I think it was supposed to convey how close the Bulldogs were to winning the titles before the inevitable schmozz. That and the fact they had some pretty state of the art offense for 1985/86 WWF and tended to overload their matches at times. The thing I couldn't figure out is why they were so bad at entering the ring to prevent a pinfall or to stop one of the Dream Team from attacking their partner. So many times they'd stay on the apron.

 

I don't know what the later Bulldogs were like, but in '85/86 they were billed as aerial exponent and these exciting young guys with arsenals at the cutting edge of pro-wrestling and I thought they delivered that with their offense.

 

I had never seen that Monty Python skit before. Nice parody of WoS and a good Walton impersonation.

[Johnny Sorrow]

but in '85/86 they were billed as aerial exponent and these exciting young guys with arsenals at the cutting edge of pro-wrestling

That hits the nail right on the head, man. I remember when I was like, 14 and the Bulldogs had just first started appearing on TV. My best friend and I were talking wrestling and he asked me if I had seen this new team The British Bulldogs. I hadn't, and the next Saturday we were watching together and they were on. It was like seeing a shot of exciting shit we'd never seen before from two guys who looked cool and jacked. A lot of it doesn't hold up for me now, but at the time it was fucking cool.

[Ricky Jackson]

Yep, I agree. One of the main reasons I got hooked on wrestling in the first place was because of the Bulldogs and their fast-paced style.

[goc]

Anyone here seen Rick Rude vs. Hogan from Boston Garden 1/9/88? After watching this match it's not a surprise to me that Hogan never wanted to work with Rude. Rude gives him a really nasty chairshot, hitting him with a half open wooden chair with the front part of the chair hitting Hogan right on top of the head. Really ugly looking.