Serious Greatest of All Time Candidates

[MJH]

Like Dan, I'm not sure what of her matches or performances were "mediocre". "Not great", sure... but if you run through her comm appearances: 1/24 trios certainly not, (2/28 and 3/20 she isn't on), Dream Slam I and II certainly not (though I know you're not as a big a fan of the first Kandori match as most, Ditch, I doubt you'd call it "mediocre"), vs. Yamada on 5/3 is good, w/Yamada vs. Hotta/Toyota 5/8 is good, 6/3 tag w/Kyoko vs. Aja/Bull is very good, vs. Kurenai on 6/11 is 90 seconds long, vs. Minami on 7/4 is good, JGP Finals is excellent, 8/25 vs. Kazama is probably Kazama's best match (certainly one of them), 9/5 tag is great, 9/29 she's not there, Marinepiad vs. Aja is disappointing for well-known reasons, 10/10 she's not on, Queendom I found disappointing (esp vs. Kansai at the start) but bad?, Kandori 2 at St. Final is very good and 12/10 is one of the best AJW tags ever... I haven't watched the TV in a while; I recall a nice little match with Debbie and the Harley one where she gets injured. Certainly some of those are not great, but everything is at least good (exc. Kurenai; Aja is at least a "good" match) and some are really great.

 

As far as Hokuto not being a consensus pick for best wrestler in 1993, I agree. But that's a testament for the quality of work in 1993 rather than an argument against Hokuto. You had the AJ big three for starters all hitting or reaching their peak. Hansen had a career year too. Some might argue Vader (I wouldn't). But a Top 10 worker for 1993 would probably all be #1s with a bullet in any year in the last twelve.

 

Edit: As noted earlier in the thread, however, I wouldn't nominate Hokuto for GOAT. But she's all-time great and '93 is certainly her banner, career year.

[Ditch]

I just watched her vs Harley Saito from JGP and thought it really failed to follow up on the intensity they had in the trios early in the year, but that's where she got hurt? There's a couple matches, vs Hotta and another I can't recall offhand, where she does really annoying "ow my leg I'm crippled ---> hey I'm on offense so I'm fine" selling. The Kong match, which I guess isn't really her fault? Oh and apparently she missed a bunch of shows. So while it's one of the best years in joshi history, it's not the sort of year that's so overwhelming as to make her a legit Top 5 pick. Again, it's not arguing against greatness, but rather about how it stacks up compared to the best in wrestling history.

[ohtani's jacket]

She was prone to doing the "ow my leg I'm crippled ---> hey I'm on offense so I'm fine", bad knee or not, but I'm not sure how that equates to "too many" mediocre matches/performances.

[Ditch]

...for the year to be considered so overwhelmingly good to make up like half the case for her as a top 5 of all time candidate. If she had several more years at that level, MAYBE, but she didn't.

[ohtani's jacket]

Not if people believe that her work was peak work for '93 and every other year.

[Ditch]

That's why I'm saying a handful of problematic performances hurts that case tremendously when you couple it with her not being on a number of shows. The number of good Hokuto matches on tape from that year isn't, like, 50. It's in the rage of 10-20 depending on tastes, unless I'm really missing something. I haven't seen anyone's GOAT case be so completely reliant on one year, or even a 2-3 year run, as Hokuto's 1993. For it to be convincing it really ought to be 'denser' or have her just running the table with great matches.

 

Yes, a lot of it depends on taste. But how many of those are even held up as joshi MOTYCs? The Kandori matches, I can maybe see the November 4 vs 4 tag being held up on that level, the Toyota match, the Hotta match if you ignore the leg selling, and the tag league finalie. Those six, and there's a couple I haven't seen yet so let's round it up to ten. The Kazama matches were Kazama's best but weren't anything earth-shaking. Even if one concedes that as the best year any wrestler ever had, it's not by the sort of margin I think would be called for when there's just such a dearth after it, and *maybe* ten matches that joshi fans rate highly from her before '93. Seems mighty thin to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

You're not going to find 50 good matches from any Joshi wrestler in 1993 because the footage we have is commercial tapes, a bit of TV and some handhelds. I think you're underselling the fact that her Dream Rush match against Kyoko and Dream Slam match against Kandori were considered two of the greatest women's wrestling matches of all-time, with the latter being regarded for a long time as one of the greatest matches ever. Add to that the other strong matches she had in '93 like the Toyota match or the 9/5 tag and you have a really great year by any wrestler's standards.

 

I'm sure that people who still hold Hokuto as one of the greatest of all-time are those who haven't moved on from 2001 or whenever it was that they last watched wrestling, but Hokuto was a favourite of people in an era where only the high points mattered. A disappointing match in the '93 JGP is just a disappointing match in the '93 JGP. For Hokuto fans, that tournament had an overarching narrative about Hokuto's body giving out right at the point of her greatest success, an irony which made for far more compelling viewing than simply cherry picking the best matches of a supposedly great worker. I'm not half the Hokuto fan I used to be (in fact, I could gladly go the rest of my life never watching one of her matches again), but you don't even like her most famous match so it stands to reason that you're not going to buy her case.

 

People have a tendency to view things as peak or longevity, one or the other, but I'm a firm believer that you have to look at it on a case by case basis. Why let longevity arguments destroy the case of a talented performer like Hokuto? Many other workers rely on a single great year even if they have longevity on their side. Hell, if you listed ten great workers, I'm sure we could find a year where if you took it out there would be a void in their body of work/career. Everybidy peaks; everybody gets a heavy weighting for that peak.

[Loss]

Not a GOAT candidate by any stretch, but I'm starting to think the second tier discussed before with guys like Vader and Steamboat should also include Riki Choshu.

[Childs]

Yeah, Choshu was probably my favorite guy on the New Japan set, though not technically the best. He's like the Jerry Lawler of Japan. If you can get past perceptions of a limited moveset, he was awesome at making pro wrestling feel alive and meaningful.

[Ditch]

Choshu moves up to be sure, but there's just so many matches where his limitations get in the way. The inability to structure a match of significant length (especially after the Fujinami feud), have interesting control segments, and the Flair-like progression to "does exactly the same 4-5 moves every match" really hampers him. When did Choshu ever carry someone? How many times is he responsible for someone's "career" match?

 

I think there's a decent case for him in the top 40, but top 20 gets really tough. Though I suppose people in the 30s are still pretty elite.

[Clayton Jones]

I think there's a better case for Choshu than for Fujinami, but I still have issues with Choshu's tendencies to go into long drawn out Scorpion Deathlock teases and his dependence on restholds in general. When Choshu brought the fire he was maybe my favorite guy on the NJPW 80s set, but when he milks a "halfway there modified Scorpion Deathlock... maybe!" segment my fast foward trigger finger gets itchy quick.

[Dylan Waco]

Choshu is the rare wrestler who every time he stepped into the ring during his peak run the match instantly started to feel like a bigger deal and more important. I definitely see him on that Steamboat/Vader level.

[smkelly]

Tito-Orndorff from St. Louis that was on the 80s set was a good match. Solid work, good selling, lots of nice little stuff. I use it a lot as an example of the fact that there was good wrestling in the WWF in the 80s, not just all the stuff people bag on. Good match, along the lines of a good match that people would see in other territories in the era.

It was most certainly a good match. Honestly, it was one of my favorite matches from the set.

 

I’m considerably late to the discussion, but I have some thoughts I’d like to share. But, I’ll start with a question first, what is a Southern Tag? I’ve seen the term used many times at DVDVR, here, and other places, but never had a clear understanding of what it entails. I suspect it is a style of tag wrestling in the south (primarily), which is obvious (by its name). Furthermore, there are other monikers to styles I don’t know/understand either, most notably, King’s Road. Would someone mind explaining that one as well for me? (I lied, I started with *two* questions)

 

I haven’t read all twelve pages yet, but I will likely do that sometime down the road, but discussions like this always intrigue me. I am a list person, seemingly by nature, so I enjoy discussions that lead to potential list making.

 

In terms of the actual discussion itself, I feel that holding separate, but equally important criteria in mind for inclusion into the GOAT annuals would be the key element to a successful poll/debate/whatever. Some may agree or disagree, but to me, wrestling ability and drawing ability are those criteria. As I said, some may agree, while others might say other abilities are more important, or things like longevity, title reigns (which I don’t take seriously anymore), etc.

 

I break it down to those two criteria for many reasons, primarily to include wrestlers like Hogan, Austin, and The Rock into the equation. Granted, Austin was a great worker, but his top-shelf work simply cannot compete with Misawa’s or Kobashi’s, or even Flair’s (which could be debatable). The same applies to Hogan and The Rock. However, the drawing ability list would be relatively easy to complete, as numbers and gates are available. Nevertheless, the debate of who actually drew the shows/gates would come into play (with some obvious no-brainers though).

 

Regarding working ability, the styles of Lucha, Joshi, and Shooto are not available to me. I have seen more footage of those styles than the normal and even slightly overzealous fan, but my level of experience pales in comparison to others. I would simply be lying if I claimed to have extensive knowledge, or even tried to rank them.

 

Notwithstanding, my extensive viewing “expertise” lies with American and Japanese promotions. However, I do not veer too far from my comfortable perch enough to speak of the various territories in the United States with anything resembling logical thought. This to me, is one of the fundamental flaws of these discussions. Some people have a wide-range of viewing habits or experiences, while others only watch the WWF, or ROH, or whatever. Evidence of sheltered viewing is exhibited in the PWT GOAT polls.

 

But it might boil down to bias as much as limited exposure to the various wrestling elements around the world and throughout the decades. Some people are simply unable to differentiate between “favorite” and “best ever”, which I doubt wouldn’t be as much a problem around these parts, but sometimes the two are so closely wound that it is the logical choice to make. For example, if John Doe’s favorite wrestler were Kenta Kobashi, he would have a good argument of citing his favorite wrestler as the greatest wrestler of all-time. I on the other hand, would not have as an easy time defending my favorite wrestler (Danielson) as the greatest wrestler of all-time.

 

I have said this to people before, but everyone and everything has a #1 fan out there somewhere. Try to remember times when you’ve been near a radio/television and heard the most annoying song you’ve ever heard in your entire life (or similar situations with different stimulus). You might have been like, “This is the worst song of all-time.” But somewhere out there in the world, that #1 fan is screaming his or her head off in delight when they hear that same song that made you recoil. What is that old adage, “one man’s trash is another man’s delight”?

 

While I’m not very good at it, mathematics can prove just about anything (or so I’m constantly reminded at college by math gurus). I’m willing to bet there is likely a mathematical formula that could create a list of the greatest wrestlers of all-time.

For example: Amount of Years (longevity) times (or divide) Number of __ * matches (preferably 4*, which is debatable) times Drawing Ability (number of shows that was clearly headlined by so-and-so, which again, is debatable). Or something similar, as it depends on what criteria, and if you multiply, divide, or simply add the criteria.

Random Example of Greatest of All-Time Formula ©:

John Doe – 24 year career / 30 4* matches x 100 shows headlined = 80 points

Versus

Ric Flair – 30 year career / 100 4* matches x 1,000 shows headlined = 300 points

 

A four-star match on a PPV card, like WrestleMania or Starrcade would be more significant than a four-star match from a house show caught on fan-cam (in my opinion at least), so maybe adding .05% (or more) to the total would be an adequate representation of the matches’ criteria. Similar methodology is exhibited in polling sometimes – if John Doe versus Ric Flair has more than five #1 votes, it gets additional bonus points.

Furthermore, headlining would need to be clearly defined.

 

This may not tickle your fancy, but it might prove worthwhile, at least, on a debate point-of-view. It might just create the apex list of the Greatest Wrestler of All-Time though.

 

Without further ado, here is my (non-mathematical list) of all-time greats in wrestling (in no particular ordering).

 

Hulk Hogan. Arguably, the greatest draw of all-time. I’m of the persuasion that without Hogan, wrestling wouldn’t be the way it is today, for better or worse. While Hogan is not known for his spectacular matches, he is nevertheless one of the true icons of professional wrestling. Once again, for better or worse.

 

Ric Flair. Arguably, Flair is the greatest worker of all-time. He is the definition of World Champion, as he toured and defended one of the most prestigious championships ever made for professional wrestling around the globe for years. Flair did that while having epic matches with a wide-variety of upper echelon workers, as well with the workers that were easily forgotten after they had retired. Flair has enough great matches to fill a small-town phonebook.

 

Kenta Kobashi. His All Japan run, especially 93-97, is likely never to be reproduced in terms of quality and greatness. His battles with injuries and disease are things of legend, man.

 

Mitsuharu Misawa. “The Standard Bearer of Future Generations.” I believe he has the most 5* matches (WON) ever. Be it singles, tag, or six-man, Misawa did it all, and seemingly with ease.

 

Toshiaki Kawada. Dangerous K is one of the All Japan Three Musketeers, and is sometimes overshadowed by his peers, Kobashi and Misawa, but man alive is Kawada great in his own rights. A league of their own describes Kawada’s ass kicking perfectly in contrast to Misawa’s finesse and Kobashi’s power.

 

Chris Benoit. While his personal life is unforgivable and unforgettable, his in-ring work is nonetheless as humanly perfect as perfection goes. I believe Benoit to be the man responsible for breaking down the size-barrier in wrestling (seems to have been rebuilt though).

 

Stan Hansen. One of the meanest hardest hitting bad asses to ever lace up a pair of boots, man. Hansen reminds me of those grizzled construction workers that wet their whistles every day in the bar. They’re the kind of person no one messes with and wants on their side when a fight breaks out. Oh yeah, he’s had some epic matches too!

 

Steve Austin. Austin did the same thing Hogan did for wrestling, only in a different direction. Instead of taking vitamins and saying prayers, it was beer bashes and stunners for the entire family. Austin revitalized wrestling in the late 90s with the “Stone Cold” gimmick. He was great as “Stunning” Steve Austin too.

 

Bret Hart. While some don’t hold him in the same light as I do, Bret to me is nevertheless one of the finest in-ring workers to compete in a WWF ring. Be it a straight-laced technical bout (SummerSlam ’92) or a dark alley street fight (WrestleMania 13), Bret was capable of going full-circle in nearly any style.

 

Jushin Liger. “The Standard Bearer of Junior Heavyweights” ©. Liger pioneered the emergence of Junior wrestling in Japan, and his influence was spread world-wide. Liger, like Kobashi, has fought injuries and diseases like Lance Armstrong. No question, Liger deserves recognition for his career.

[Loss]

"Southern tag" refers to the typical U.S. structure for laying out a tag match where one guy gets isolated from his teammate and they build to a hot tag where the fresh guy comes in and cleans house. Occasionally, people complain about the formulaic nature of it, but it has probably produced more good matches than any other formula in wrestling history.

[Childs]

Choshu moves up to be sure, but there's just so many matches where his limitations get in the way. The inability to structure a match of significant length (especially after the Fujinami feud), have interesting control segments, and the Flair-like progression to "does exactly the same 4-5 moves every match" really hampers him. When did Choshu ever carry someone? How many times is he responsible for someone's "career" match?

 

I think there's a decent case for him in the top 40, but top 20 gets really tough. Though I suppose people in the 30s are still pretty elite.

Going more than 15 or 20 minutes in a singles match was certainly not his thing. But I can't think of a ton of matches where that weakness got in the way (the Jumbo broadway is an obvious exception.) In fact, he was pretty damn good at working to his strengths. Most of his peak singles matches were short and intense. He left the epic stuff for tags, where he was tremendous as the guy who would run in to create game-changing moments.

 

I guess I can see the criticisms of his headscissors- and scorpion-centric control segments. But he rarely held them long enough to lose the crowd, so they don't bother me too much.

 

I don't know if he carried people exactly but he brought an intensity to matches that lifted other great performers. Jumbo and Tenryu, for example, both got more interesting when he showed up. Fujinami, another all-time great, had his best matches with Choshu. Some of Hashimoto's earliest great matches were against him. Fujiwara had one of his best matches against him.

 

I guess what it comes down to is that for all of his technical deficiencies compared to other all-time greats, he had a rare ability to make matches feel big and charged. Throughout the New Japan and All Japan reviewing, I never groaned when I saw his name on match list, because I knew his presence promised some sort of excitement. I can't say that about too many guys.

[Ditch]

While mulling over who from the usual suspects I'd put on par with Choshu, Bret Hart came to mind. He's someone who is often mentioned as either a top-tier or second-tier wrestler, and I think is quite overrated in that regard. If he was somewhere other than WWF post-Hogan boom he wouldn't be remembered nearly as fondly. smkelly's post above is a perfect example. "one of the finest in-ring workers to compete in a WWF ring" is really not the biggest accomplishment; the promotion is about bodybuilders and gimmicks more than wrestling. If you're going to look at the whole package (ie. ability to draw, ability to work, charisma/promos), no way is Bret top ten material.

 

Bret was good but not overwhelmingly so in the '80s. He was inconsistent in WCW. And when you dig into his WWF singles run, by the time you're even ten or twelve matches deep you're talking about matches that are only notably good by WWF standards. Comparing him to Choshu, who was second-tier at best, is quite instructive. Choshu was able to keep himself hot for longer (even pre-injury Bret's star was tarnished), he's got way more charisma, and when you combine Choshu's work in NJ and AJ in the '80s, Choshu's part in the NJ vs WAR feud, and a few other '90s highlights, his body of work is a lot more impressive. Choshu was a waaaaay better draw, too. When all was said and done Bret had plenty of opportunities to wrestle good opponents so it's not as though being in WWF meant he never had the chance to shine, compared to someone in Japan. I think both of them were prone to being repetitive.

 

This isn't to say that I think Choshu is a top 20 guy. More that Bret isn't.

[Graham Crackers]

I didn't realize people disliked Choshu's drawn out application of the Scorpion Death Lock. It creates an impression that he is always trying to win a match rather than wasting time, even if it really is filler.

[jdw]

I don't think people dislike the drawn out Scorp. It's the other rest holds that tend to get laughs when people remember the "Always Go-Go-Going and Never Slowing Down" meme. Things like the chinlock and the leg scissors were favorites for yucks.

 

Choshu got around that by being one of the folks to invent Nitro Style a decade before there was Nitro: shortening matches, cutting out the need to fill space that he wasn't terribly good at, and "getting to the good stuff" which he was.

 

You tend to accept it for what it was. Savage was brillant at Nitro Style in the WWF as well, even dipping into My Turn, Your Turn and I've Got Stuff To Do mode to epic levels in his SNME match with Bret.

 

If you're watching Savage in the WWF, you accept it as it's better than a lot of the surrounding stuff in the fed and you're not expecting Backlund vs Patera from him. If it's Choshu, you accept it because you're not expecting Backlund vs Inoki from him.

 

Though you get a few yucks the next time you see the "Always Go-Go-Going and Never Slowing Down" nonsense.

 

John

[Frankensteiner]

I am curious, how do you quantify Choshu as "waaaaay bigger draw" than Bret?

[El-P]

Choshu not only was a way bigger star than Bret as an active performer in the 80's both in NJ and AJ, but was also a great booker for NJ in the first half of the 90's and drew shitloads of money booking the rise of the 3 Musketeers and Tenryu vs NJ. He lost his touch with the UWF-i feud, and the Sasaki push, but Choshu really was magic for a good 10-15 years.

[Frankensteiner]

Choshu not only was a way bigger star than Bret as an active performer in the 80's both in NJ and AJ, but was also a great booker for NJ in the first half of the 90's and drew shitloads of money booking the rise of the 3 Musketeers and Tenryu vs NJ. He lost his touch with the UWF-i feud, and the Sasaki push, but Choshu really was magic for a good 10-15 years.

I'm not disputing Choshu as being on top longer or even being a bigger star. I'm just curious about the methodology of comparing two guys from different promotions & regions and declaring one as unequivocally better draw than the other.

 

NJ was at its most profitable in the 90s. If you look at the list of guys who drew 10K+ houses in that 10 year period, Bret is even with Hashimoto and ahead of Muto, the two biggest draws in NJ.

[Dylan Waco]

Is that the Farmer list? Because there are a lot of problems with that list

[Frankensteiner]

Correct.

[Loss]

I am curious, how do you quantify Choshu as "waaaaay bigger draw" than Bret?

There was at one time a stat in the WON that Choshu has headlined more shows with $1 million+ gates than any wrestler in history. Not sure if that's still the case, but he is one of the five or ten biggest draws in the history of Japanese wrestling, so yeah, he's above Bret.

[Loss]

I'm guessing it would go Rikidozan, Inoki, Baba, Takada, Choshu if listing the top five draws ever in the country ... is that accurate?