Serious Greatest of All Time Candidates

[KrisZ]

Tenryu's standing during the early internet years was hurt by leaving All-Japan in 1990. I remember lots of people bashed SWS & WAR especially WAR which the talking points for WAR was that it was the wacky indy promotion that ran these oddball 6-mans and was the home of Ultimo Dragon. Even back in the early DVDVR days the guys loved WAR but it was more of a "fat guys working their ass off" way rather than a "Tenryu is fucking awesome" way. Tenryu got lost in the shuffle among the AJ heavies, NJ juniors, & UWFi peaks of internet love.

 

In fact look at the Best of 90's Japanese Indy results to gauge the Tenryu opinion at the time

 

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Ric Flair - SWS (4/18/92 - 2/3 Falls) - 39

Genichiru Tenryu vs. Great Muta - WAR "Crush Night" (10/11/96) - 27

Nobuhiko Takada vs. Genichiro Tenryu - UWFi (9/11/96) - 20 (0-0-1)

Atsushi Onita vs. Genichiro Tenryu - FMW 5th Anniversary Show (5/5/94 - Cage Bomb Death Match) - 13

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Ric Flair - SWS (4/17/92) - 3

Genichiro Tenryu vs. Shiyna Hashimoto (6/17/93) - 2

 

The highest ranked Tenryu match was 44th and in the New Japan version of the list the Hashimoto match from the G1 was ranked 13th with a couple of others very low on the list.

 

IMO, the Tenryu rebirth of love didn't begin until he started feuding with Muto in All-Japan in 2001 and it grew from there plus when the All-Japan 80's set gets released to the public, it will explode.

[ohtani's jacket]

The increase in Tenryu pimping has a lot to do with people discovering new Tenryu matches. Ten years ago, you would've never seen a set like Will's. A "Best of Tenryu" would've included matches that got a high rating in the WON and whatever else fit on a VHS tape. If you didn't buy a tape like that or have one made, you picked up the Jumbo vs. Tenryu comp and maybe the '98 G-1 Climax. Most of us never had the opportunity to watch weekly Japanese television and were busy chasing down all the known four star matches.

 

Take Tenryu's feud with New Japan, for example. This was a known commodity and something people wrote about, but I guarantee that the majority of people on a Tenryu-kick right now hadn't seen it until Segunda Caida started reviewing WAR matches and Wrestling KO tried to do a "Best of '93" poll, which led to Ditch buying stuff from Lynch and hosting more of the Tenryu feud on his server, etc. Those matches may not be new in terms of people praising them, but they are new for the people who are watching them, and what SG is doing essentially is expanding Tenryu's body of work. With an expanded body of work, people are starting to view Tenryu as an even better worker before. The fact that people are pimping Tenryu is not the important detail, it's what they're saying about Tenryu that's significant.

 

I don't know what Meltzer was saying about Tenryu in '88-89, but by the time most of us arrived on the scene I think we took the criticism of Tenryu in the Jumbo matches or Hashimoto match as the standard line on Tenryu, which you either agreed with or didn't. If Tenryu pimping has come full circle then you can hardly blame people for being influenced by where they "got on," but with the level of praise Tenryu has been receiving lately I think Dylan may have a point that he was never pimped quite this much.

[ohtani's jacket]

Also, you can't ignore that Tenryu is "moving up" because of how many of his matches were previously unwatched. If you look at everyone else in the top 20, you'd be hard pressed to find much that's new.

 

Long time Japanese wrestling fans who followed the scene closely from the late 80s all the way through the 90s (like John) might find it a bit of a head scratcher that anyone could consider Tenryu matches new, just as most of us would find it a little odd if people were pimping most of the top 20's matches as new discoveries, but I think it points to an interesting trend that non-All Japan heavies were hugely ignored until recently. Even though you had John trying to make a case for the heavies in his "Best of the 90s" pimping, outside of Hashimoto it didn't really take off at the time because people were trying to watch all the All Japan he'd listed. One of the things that came out of the 80s New Japan set was a need to re-evaluate 90s New Japan and the WAR/Tenryu feud thing is a part of that, I guess.

 

If there wasn't any new Tenryu to discover there wouldn't be as much discussion about him, which ties into what Loss said about the dangers of the "new is better" mentality.

[Ditch]

The NJ '80s set *definitely* made me go out and buy/trade for a lot of early '90s material that flows from the '80s. In addition to the 1993 stuff at WKO, another thing I did was take a closer look at '90 and '91, which included January-April 1990 AJ (a very overlooked period) and SWS. In early '90 you have:

 

-Two or three good Jumbo vs Tenryu tags

-Tenryu delivering an impressive squash to Isao "Arashi" Takagi

-The barn-burner NJ vs AJ tag at Tokyo Dome

 

Then add in the Tenryu vs George Takano match from SWS, and 1990 goes fron being a near-zero in Tenryu's career to being perfectly acceptable. A couple more good outings in '91 SWS don't really add much to a GOAT case, but it helps remove the stigma that Tenryu did nothing in the '90s until the NJ vs WAR feud. And that feud has been very overlooked until lately, adding tremendously to the case.

 

With Jumbo vs Tenryu 6/5/89, various matches opposite Choshu and the Hansen/Gordy vs Tenryu/Kawada RWTL '88 epic all having been widely seen, the 'consensus' has been that Tenryu was excellent in the mid-late '80s. The AJ set will magnify this, but won't really change minds in that regard. People already know how good Tenryu was in the early '00s. What's different is the '90s, because unless Tenryu was top 5-10 from Japan in the '90s he really can't be considered for GOAT. What did people generally see from Tenryu in the '90s? Well, there's the solid but unspectacular April '90 match vs Jumbo, 1/4/93 vs Choshu, the bloody nose match vs Fujinami, the G-1 '98 slugfest with Hashimoto, and maybe people saw his bouts with Takada and/or Onita. All that doesn't really suggest someone who stacks up with Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, let alone Liger or Taue or [joshi wrestler of choice]. It's not just that Tenryu had some good highlights, but that he had a VERY deep 1990s in terms of high-end matches or at the very least high-end performances.

 

So, to draw on the NJ '80s set effect, the AJ '80s set will jack up interest in '90s Tenryu, be it people downloading NJ vs WAR matches, or be it people buying the Tenryu Comp Of Doom from Will. The talking points won't be new, the matches have been on the Lynch catalog since before I entered high school, but there's going to be much fresh talk about Tenryu over the next couple years!

[MJH]

Tenryu's the most interesting "outsider" case I've heard.

 

I'm all for revisiting the late-'80s stuff. I agree that he had the better singles matches in 85/86 with Choshu, certainly the last time I watched them which is going on a few years. Jumbo's singles matches with Choshu never really did much for me; but neither did Jumbo's matches with Hansen. Some guys just match up well, whilst others don't. Kobashi vs. Hansen was dynamite. Kawada not too far below. Misawa vs. Hansen struggled. I don't think the discrepency between them is any sort of barometer in their respective talent, just of chemistry. Vader matches up much better with Sting than he did against a lot of better workers (even if I'm not as high on those matches - or Vader - as some).

 

Tenryu/Jumbo I watched recently (ie; that comp). I'd certainly veto any "Tenryu was better than Jumbo there". Tenryu was great, but Jumbo was better. Jumbo (for a much smaller time due to his illness) was a better "old man", too, than Tenryu's been. He had much better opposition, though, that I'll grant you.

 

Tenryu may have been a Top 10 for the '90s in Japan. He's certainly between Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Hashimoto. Taue might have an outside case but I think the only thing Taue has on Tenryu is offence (Taue's biggest strength) and being a part of elite matches (with a much reduced role than the others - RWTL '96 is a career performance and he's third in the match). Benoit was better. Liger was probably better. Eddy was better too but if we only take his Japanese work then probably not. I certainly don't think Tenryu's a Top 10 worldwide for the '90s. And I haven't found any of the WAR stuff to be revelatory excellent. Deserving of more than it got previously, but dwarfed by others around it.

 

Is there a good comparison outside of wrestling on the longevity issue? The Beatles are #1 for a seven year run. Of course they were releasing albums at a much faster rate than people do nowadays but no great band has longevity, do they?

 

And, really, how *great* was Tenryu in the early '00s? Or even the second half of the '90s? The odd very good showing, perhaps, but *great*? I'm not so sure. Was his run as a top-level worker really longer than maybe 10-12 years? Others have that. And, besides, Jumbo has as great a longevity-based case as anyone; 16 years as a strong Best In The World candidate.

[Ditch]

I think a mark of greatness, beyond the number of good and great matches, is the ability for someone to be plugged into different scenarios and still work. Tenryu as the AJ homegrown vs Choshu, as the rebel vs Jumbo, as the ace in SWS, as the invader in NJ vs WAR and AJ vs WAR, as (essentially) a legend doing dream matches in NOAH... it all worked. Plug him in with great workers like Hashimoto and the result is great. Plug him in with a lesser opponent and the result will be a career match or at least a top 5 match for the guy. Meanwhile, there's very few times where Tenryu didn't match up well with someone, at least when that someone was any good. Hansen comes to mind.

 

I think Liger in the '90s is a really interesting comparison. There's lots of times where Liger was the driving force in a match; where Liger got career-level performances out of an opponent; where Liger was a one-man show. But there were also plenty of instances of Liger in a title match or on a big show where he did stupid things (especially late in the decade), did mindless bomb-throwing, went through the motions, or was simply out-worked. I've watched loads of semi-obscure NJ TV, and sometimes a hidden gem would turn up, but other times those less-famous Liger matches were simply a letdown. Some of it, I'm sure, is the difference in how junior matches age compared to heavyweight style. But there's no excuse for failing to lay a match out properly, or dogging it until being told to start trying hard because of the TV JIP mark. There's no excuse for Liger going along with the overkill & no-selling trends in the late '90s.

 

At this point I'm pretty sure I've liked more Liger matches in the '90s than I have Tenryu matches, but in terms of *performances*, and matches that are better than good, or distinct/memorable, I think Tenryu beats Liger hands-down.

[Childs]

Meanwhile, there's very few times where Tenryu didn't match up well with someone, at least when that someone was any good. Hansen comes to mind.

Are you saying Tenryu didn't match up well with Hansen? I thought they matched up great -- one of my favorite All-Japan singles series of the the '80s.

[Ditch]

Of what's on the set, I'm not sure I saw the '86 one, I probably saw the '87 one and didn't care for it, I know I saw 3/9/88 and was disappointed, not sure about 3/27/88 or 7/27/88. I'm pretty sure there were some I saw that aren't on the set. But heck, maybe I'm wrong, I mean I enjoyed a lot of their tag interactions. In which case I really can't think of a good wrestler Tenryu couldn't mesh with.

[Phil Schneider]

So the Lawler project got started because of this discussion. Folks should check out Lawler v. Tito which I linked to on Segunda Caida. I know JDW is a Tito fan and this was pretty damn great for a totally underground match.

[Matt D]

There should totally be a Tito vs Weird opponents comp with Lawler, Undertaker, Flair, and Windham on it. I can't wait to check that match out later.

[MJH]

I thought the Lawler/Dundee-MX tag was decent enough, if run-of-the-mill. I don't see how you can call the match with Harley "a Lawler match" at all, though. Ignoring the fact that the touring world champ is going to be leading the thing, it's Harley's routine. That's not to say Lawler's bad in it (I'm not as impressed by a 'variety of punches' as you are - they're still just punches; what exactly makes it any more impressive than Kobashi having infinite chop variations?) but it's as obviously "a Harley match" as something eight or ten years later would be "a Flair match".

[Loss]

MJH, what's your favorite Southern tag? Your favorite NWA title match in the U.S. that's not Flair/Steamboat or Flair/Windham?

 

If punches aren't impressive, why can so few wrestlers throw a good one?

[Dylan Waco]

"There still just punches" seems to me like it could applied to almost anything else in wrestling. "It's still just matwork. It's still just head drops. It's still just near falls." et.

 

Lawler/Dundee v. MX match was pretty easily a great match I thought. By pure chance I happened to find it on AWA disc the same day Phil reviewed it on SC. Here is what I wrote.

 

JIP but I don't think anything is really missing. Lawler and Dundee hit an awesome duck down/apron lariat spot early and Lawler goes from that straight into the old "abandon the criss cross to chase the heel manager" bit which is a staple of the other Midnight Express. Condrey backs Lawler into the corner and decks him twice but it just pisses Jerry off and he drops Condrey. Dundee avoids the knee to the back coming off the ropes spot and we get the strut. I absolutely loved the sequence of stuff based on the turnbuckles, with Lawler saving Dundee, Rose trying to save Condrey and then a similar motif off of the leg press spot in the corner. Dundee is awesome cranking the headlock, while back dropping the other heel and then the heels take turn getting punched to shit. GREAT moment with Rose getting the upper hand and Dundee is still in the ring so he jabs Rose in the fucking face to cut his momentum before taking his spot on the apron leading to a Lawler fist drop and another bail to the floor spot from the Express. God Dundee creams Rose coming off the top and they do an amusing spot with Lawler and Dundee taking turns going for the cover as the ref counts half confused. Lawler lights up Rose with great punches, but Lawler takes a boot on the corner charge and then takes his awesome over the top backwards bump for Condrey's big right which is followed up by Rose slamming him on the floor. They start to work over Lawler's back. Lawler is really great positioning himself in the right way so that he can get off a hope spot but still be totally isolated in the heel corner. Nice bit of psych with Rose hitting his Vader Bomb splash to Lawler's back. Good cradle for another nice hope spot and Rose hits a darn good looking British Bulldog style powerslam for a near fall. Awesome awesome awesome spot with Lawler reaching backwards desperately when he gets shot into the ropes and JUST missing a tag to Dundee. Dundee ends up chasing around Dangerously and Lawler ducks down on a double clothesline attempt and then hits a double clothesline of his own for a near fall. Dundee comes in a house of fire throwing some sick blows, but Lawler hits the floor to chase after Paul E only for Dundee to get knocked out with a phone shot for the finish. This was a great match. I'm not sure I agree with Phil that this was better than the best of Midnight Rockers v. Rose/Somers matches but it's in the same neighborhood.

[MJH]

Nice to know I'm a cliche... .

 

But I like plenty of "southern tags". I just thought that match was OK, rather than anything special. There was nothing there I haven't seen done plenty of other times, either as well or better. The best spot in the shine was the posting sequence and that's hardly original. I never felt there was a great rhythm to it, and I want more than punches. The backdrop wasn't the highest or prettiest in the world by any means, I'm not sure what the spot in the corner was supposed to be where Lawlers laying across it... though he did a nice bump to the floor for the cut off, and the slam on the outside, in the context of the rest of the match, was emphatic. The heat was fine but "there", and they went straight to the finish off the hot tag. The match was fine... but great? Not at all.

 

Lawler's punches are great. And you're right, hardly anyone can do them well at all. But... I want more offence from a guy I'm supposed to be buying as the best in that territory/world/ace/whatever. As an old man working a veteran gimmick, sure, that's fine, like a broken down Kobashi. But for a guy in his athletic peak, I want more.

[Ditch]

I rate Kobashi over Lawler big-time but Lawler's punches add far more than Kobashi's chops. Kobashi's chops are more like moveset filler than brutal/dramatic blows.

 

That said, Lawler being a better striker compared to broken down Kobashi isn't the hugest accomplishment.

[MJH]

I'm actually a fairly big fan of late-Kobashi - I think it's remarkable what he can get out of chops and charisma and working matches around that. But it was less a comparison of quality and more an example of how a veteran limited to just strikes can work effectively.

[Dylan Waco]

How about veterans "limited" to just head drops?

[Sean Liska]

I turned the corner on Lawler with the Memphis set. I knew the guy was good, but the caliber of work he put in with a wide variety of opponents put him in the Best US Worker Ever dicussion with Funk and Flair. I thought the 85 LLT match with Dundee was like the 6/3/94 of the 80s in how epic it was. The Mantell and Funk stuff also stood out. I was also really surprised by how varied Lawler's moveset was and how crazy his bumps were.

 

I wouldn't use the Express match as an argument for him, though, he was capable of much better "average" stuff in Memphis.

[khawk20]

Lawler's punches are great. And you're right, hardly anyone can do them well at all.

Makes me wonder why more guys just didn't learn the Dory Funk (Billy Robinson, too) forearm shiver/uppercut instead. Always looks good, and more realistic than even a decent punch, imo.

[Tim Evans]

Speaking of the Lawler project, Phil have you seen Jerry Lawler vs Tommy Gilbert from 1973?

[Dylan Waco]

Speaking of the Lawler project, Phil have you seen Jerry Lawler vs Tommy Gilbert from 1973?

So bizarre that you bring this up Tim as I just saw that it was on youtube today. Is that the oldest available Lawler match?

 

[MJH]

Lawler's punches are great. And you're right, hardly anyone can do them well at all.

Makes me wonder why more guys just didn't learn the Dory Funk (Billy Robinson, too) forearm shiver/uppercut instead. Always looks good, and more realistic than even a decent punch, imo.

 

I do think punches work better as a one-off strike that the heel can build around using as an illegal hit, and that forearms (for instance) work better as a general strike. But that's just a personal preference on my part as to how I like punches used. I have no problem with Lawler or whomever using them as a regular strike, and certainly Lawler does them as well as anyone. I just like a more broader variety of offence than various punches, especially from a guy in their athletic prime as the best/ace/whatever.

[Bix]

Speaking of the Lawler project, Phil have you seen Jerry Lawler vs Tommy Gilbert from 1973?

So bizarre that you bring this up Tim as I just saw that it was on youtube today. Is that the oldest available Lawler match?

 

 

Yes, it is.

 

Am I remembering wrong or didn't Lawler do double duty on that show and also do a tag with Jim White?

[Ditch]

I've been watching a lot of '93 AJW lately, and I think the case for Hokuto as GOAT is incredibly weak, much weaker than for Takada. The case for her was always about that year and a relative handful of highlights from other years. Well, there's simply too many mediocre matches/performances from her in '93 that it would be enough to overcome the number of great years that other wrestlers had over time, and I don't think she's even good enough to be the consensus pick for that year alone!

 

Granted, only one person had her #1 in the SC vote, and with how joshi-friendly the board was that's saying something. But she got 11 top 5 votes, and I don't think there's a case for her as top 5 unless one is rating joshi twice as much as any other style.

[ohtani's jacket]

I doubt very much anyone would consider Hokuto the GOAT anymore, but you'll have to explain which of her performances were medicore. Was this before or after she blew her knee out? Mike Oles used to argue against Hokuto's '93 all the time.