Dave on Sayama and watching old footage

[El-P]

I guess you can argue Dyno was one of Foley's main influence as far as the ridiculous bumping came from.

[smkelly]

While DK doesn't have as many sign-ups as Flair, he has quite a few for such a shitty worker. I don't know much about Japanese motivation, but I'm willing to bet many followed TM's foot-prints, again, not bad for such a shitty worker.

The question is whether there's enough to those matches beyond the athleticism that makes them hold up to standards that are used to judge wrestling from across time. Things like selling and transitions and execution aren't controversial standards.

No, and that's why I don't like them as much anymore, because they don't hold up.

 

I've seen better stuff from lesser workers over the years. If anything, I was pointing out the logical inconsistency that if a lot of people follow something, it doesn't always mean it was a good thing to follow. Like the, "If everyone is walking off a bridge, will you do it too?" rhetoric that parents and people in authority always quote.

 

People like Michaels and HHH have said that they followed Flair.

Benoit followed Dyno (most famous one anyway), which didn't turn out as well as HBK and HHH following Flair.

I don't know who followed Sayama, but whoever did, was it as good as the Flair followers?

 

(My original post was sarcastic in nature, but obviously I suck at Internet sarcasm )

[Ditch]

Internet sarcasm is a tricky, dangerous thing.

[Jingus]

You should pick up the NJ 80s set, Jingus.

When I asked my question, I almost added "and please don't tell me to just buy some massive DVD boxset from Will". I can barely force myself to watch more than two or three matches in one sitting nowadays, my interest in wrestling is so low.

 

Sabu matches aren't great in a "oh, look at that cool spot" kinda way, but in what Sabu portrayed and conveyed through those insane spots, a complete lunatic that would do insane shit to himself to hurt his opponent. Sure, they were some poor setup at times, but Sabu brought so much shit, never got complacent and always mixed up things by modifying one of his usual spot, brought new teases, that the positives to me squashed the negatives. And his matches didn't look like controlled chaos not overscripted "insane" match like we saw in WWE in the last decade, it looked like real chaos, and the occasionnal sloppyness actually added to that. Wrestling has become way too clean, and rewatching Sabu's matches today (or Sandman's), makes them look actually better and deeper than just "look at the insane spots". To me Sabu got better with time because the times have gone so far toward overproducing and overscripting that this guy's work looks much more fresh and organic in comparison. And there's that fascinating stuff about never knowing if he was actually hurt or just selling, which infact kinda made him the most realistic "seller" I've seen.

That's a damn fine summary, and it's exactly how I see him too.

 

I don't know who followed Sayama, but whoever did, was it as good as the Flair followers?

Uh... all I can think of are Ultimo Dragon and some of his shittier trainees, so, no. Technically you could also make a claims for Tiger Masks II-IV, but that doesn't help Sayama's case either.

[Resident Evil]

FFFFFFFF

[goodhelmet]

FFFFFFFF

Come on, you can do better than this!

[S.L.L.]

FFFFFFFF

Come on, you can do better than this!

 

I think it's the most compelling argument he's made yet.

[MJH]

I think people have pretty much made their respective cases on the series themselves, but, what's really so bad about being a revolutionary series of matches in their time that don't hold up 30 years later?

[Loss]

I think people have pretty much made their respective cases on the series themselves, but, what's really so bad about being a revolutionary series of matches in their time that don't hold up 30 years later?

Nothing at all.

[Resident Evil]

FFFFFFFF

Come on, you can do better than this!

 

I had written down some stuff but after thinking about it and for several different reasons I just deleted it. Instead of writing edit, I just closed my eyes, decided to have some fun and picked a letter on the keyboard. FFFFFF means nothing at all since it was random though it does kind of come out as me going FFFFFUUUUCCCCKKK* which is kind of funny.

 

Rey Mysterio Jr was heavily influenced by TM and DK's matches. IIRC and I can't quote anymore since I read the interview in the late 90s -- He loved their athleticism and I believe their quick creative thinking. Since Rey I beleive would like to sit in the arena, look at the ring and imagine a creative match taking place inside his head I imagine he truly appreciated TM and DK's work. It's always my belief that it's harder to come up with this stuff right away at the pace DK and Tiger were doing and matches that display it no matter who it is always gets me worked up more emotionally.

Than I went on to how Sayama is such an influence to a high percentage of wrestlers eitheri seemingly directly Saskue/Lyger - or indirectly. Than I think I complimented the Sabu post since I'm such a huge Sabu mark. But yeah basically, I have to give up message board posting unless I'm really excited like I am over the Savage/Garvin Best Territory Match of the 80s candidate or somrthing like that. It's a bad habit (that can accumulate with others) that distracts one from their goals in life and I was kind of disguested at myself for sinking into a habit that I really shoud give up for the most part so I said screw it, you can't keep on doing this RE. You can't correct everyone. Work on yourself as any being should always be doing. Reduce message board posting to absolute minimal talk and save that for productive sensible people with productive type posting. Habits wether they're good, bad or ok are extremely powerful forces in ones life. Remember that kids.

Also remember this the next time you post something

 

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

 

 

I think it's the most compelling argument he's made yet

UWFI = Pro Wrestling = Pancrase = Pride = MMA.

[goodhelmet]

Post of the Year!

[smkelly]

I think people have pretty much made their respective cases on the series themselves, but, what's really so bad about being a revolutionary series of matches in their time that don't hold up 30 years later?

Like Loss said, nothing at all. It is the ways things are. Take movies for example. Nearly thirty years ago, John Carpenters' The Thing came out. At the time, it was probably one of the most over the top horror movies – violence, human psychology, aliens, blood, dismemberment, etc. The graphics were great for 1982 as well, but nothing near mind-blowing compared to today’s standards. The same applies to the violence, aliens, blood, dismemberment, and human psychology. Does it detract from The Thing? To some yes, but to others, not at all. Personally speaking, it is one of the better horror movies I have ever seen, as it actually scares me no matter how many times I watch it (like It and Cujo).

 

This is what RE is seemingly having a hard time understanding. Obviously, he disagrees that the matches aren’t as good to others as they are to him. It’s a teeter-totter argument. RE isn’t going to suddenly admit defeat and pronounce his dislike for the series, while the rest of us aren’t going to announce suddenly that the series is the greatest thing since (insert great thing here). Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets.

 

Out of personal curiosity, I wonder if the dislike of the TM/DK series is an American thing? I mean, do Japanese fans look at the series the same as we do, or do they look at the series as RE does? American culture is always looking for the next big thing while discarding yesterday’s modern miracles (think cell phones, computers, etc).

 

Another thing I’m curious of – when exactly did the backlash start on the TM/DK series? Back in 2002 when I first got on the Internet and message boards, the series was still quite favored, with only a small amount of people who disagreed. I might be wrong in assuming this, but I’m guessing John will be the person to answer that question (no offense intended in any direction).

 

Sean

[Al]

I think the praise for Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid comes from the fact that the match came to the states (MSG, elsewhere?). Those two got exposure that the rest of the Japan juniors didn't get for years. For guys like Benoit, TM/DK was likely their FIRST look at the style, and that leaves a huge impression.

[S.L.L.]

I think people have pretty much made their respective cases on the series themselves, but, what's really so bad about being a revolutionary series of matches in their time that don't hold up 30 years later?

Like Loss and smkelly said, nothing at all....which makes it so baffling that people like Dave and Res get so defensive about the matches when people point out that they don't hold up. If they could offer some legitimate defense of the quality of the matches today - even if I didn't necessarily agree with the conclusions - that would be fine. If they shrugged their shoulders and gave the Apple Jacks defense ("I like them because...because I just do!"), that'd be fine, too. Taking this approach, where they have to be objectively "right" and the other guy has to be objectively "wrong", where they have to "win" and the other guy has to "lose", because God forbid that anyone see your opinions on professional wrestling as being anything less than the wisdom of Solomon...that's a problem independently of whether or not the TM/DK matches are any good.

 

I think the praise for Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid comes from the fact that the match came to the states (MSG, elsewhere?). Those two got exposure that the rest of the Japan juniors didn't get for years. For guys like Benoit, TM/DK was likely their FIRST look at the style, and that leaves a huge impression.

Fujinami showed up at MSG more frequently than than those guys. None of his MSG matches were ever as pimped as TM/DK at MSG was as far as I know, but he was there.

 

Looking at them in context, the TM/DK matches were definitely novel, and I think that is probably where the praise comes from. But it's 2011, and I've seen Masato Yoshino. Yoshino moves at least as fast as Sayama did back then, and unlike Sayama, he can actually hit his spots regularly. And I don't even like Yoshino. Why would I want to watch his vastly sloppier predecessor?

[Resident Evil]

I think the praise for Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid comes from the fact that the match came to the states (MSG, elsewhere?). Those two got exposure that the rest of the Japan juniors didn't get for years. For guys like Benoit, TM/DK was likely their FIRST look at the style, and that leaves a huge impression.

And it's interesting to watch the crowd in that. I really do like the MSG match between the two BUT imo and I don't mean this in an insulting way that is the worse match of the whole entire series. Still, it left people marking out of their minds for these two guys who they weren't familiar with. It's totally written on their faces. I don't think it is possible for anyone to truly understand or put themselves in those shoes and give a total accurate, fair represntation of what they're watching, myself included. Now take matches that are as least as five times as good (no exaggeration) as the MSG match in Japan and see how an observer at the time will take to it.

 

Like Loss said, nothing at all. It is the ways things are. Take movies for example. Nearly thirty years ago, John Carpenters' The Thing came out. At the time, it was probably one of the most over the top horror movies – violence, human psychology, aliens, blood, dismemberment, etc. The graphics were great for 1982 as well, but nothing near mind-blowing compared to today’s standards. The same applies to the violence, aliens, blood, dismemberment, and human psychology. Does it detract from The Thing? To some yes, but to others, not at all. Personally speaking, it is one of the better horror movies I have ever seen, as it actually scares me no matter how many times I watch it (like It and Cujo).

 

This is what RE is seemingly having a hard time understanding. Obviously, he disagrees that the matches aren’t as good to others as they are to him. It’s a teeter-totter argument. RE isn’t going to suddenly admit defeat and pronounce his dislike for the series, while the rest of us aren’t going to announce suddenly that the series is the greatest thing since (insert great thing here). Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets.

 

Out of personal curiosity, I wonder if the dislike of the TM/DK series is an American thing? I mean, do Japanese fans look at the series the same as we do, or do they look at the series as RE does? American culture is always looking for the next big thing while discarding yesterday’s modern miracles (think cell phones, computers, etc).

 

Another thing I’m curious of – when exactly did the backlash start on the TM/DK series? Back in 2002 when I first got on the Internet and message boards, the series was still quite favored, with only a small amount of people who disagreed. I might be wrong in assuming this, but I’m guessing John will be the person to answer that question (no offense intended in any direction).

 

Sean

I looooved Cujo. Awesome movie.

As far as the Japanese fans looking back on the series, I am not too sure on what they think. Of course, NJPW was bigger than life than and the stars from that time I hear are more fondly and often remembered. In fact, Tiger Mask I once heard was top 5 or actually I think it was top 3 biggest NJPW names in history. DK, just from watching NJPW over the years left a big impact as well seemingly on the wrestling world. Of course, he really stood out as a main rival of TM, a very strong personality and he was a foreigner. NJPW constantly mentions him over the years on commentary and to this day want to duplicate him -- See Richards who NJPW wants as DK and who is doing a terrific job in Japan these days --. You see stuff in interviews (a podcast I think) like with Lo -Ki where NJPW told him they wanted to replicate DK and IIRC (stupid memory) his feud with TM.

 

As far as backlash against TM/DK there has always been some to be honost. For the people who view wrestling as JDW does -- they're not going to like some of the structure of the matches. Someone like Childs I can see not taking to it as much. There is also a backlash among some fans over time to certain types of matches. But from what I've seen in other places, there is also still great love for the series. It is my belief that while the structure at times can bother some of the more hardcore fans that same structure is perfectly fine with others and in cases like mine I actually like it a lot.

[smkelly]

I think people have pretty much made their respective cases on the series themselves, but, what's really so bad about being a revolutionary series of matches in their time that don't hold up 30 years later?

Like Loss and smkelly said, nothing at all....which makes it so baffling that people like Dave and Res get so defensive about the matches when people point out that they don't hold up. If they could offer some legitimate defense of the quality of the matches today - even if I didn't necessarily agree with the conclusions - that would be fine. If they shrugged their shoulders and gave the Apple Jacks defense ("I like them because...because I just do!"), that'd be fine, too. Taking this approach, where they have to be objectively "right" and the other guy has to be objectively "wrong", where they have to "win" and the other guy has to "lose", because God forbid that anyone see your opinions on professional wrestling as being anything less than the wisdom of Solomon...that's a problem independently of whether or not the TM/DK matches are any good.

 

The mentality exhibited thus far reminds me of being at college or professional sporting events. Like when Michigan faces Michigan State or Ohio State (especially football). People are just fucking relentless in the "my team is better than your team" meme that usually ends up historically bad for the people involved and the people in the immediate area. Or like someone bad mouthing the Red Sox in a southie bar (of all places, right?). The end result is always the same - the fans will defend their heroes and idols above and beyond what is logical, sane, and required, which, expecting anything less from them is just as illogical, insane, and a waste of time.

 

Sean

[jdw]

Another thing I’m curious of – when exactly did the backlash start on the TM/DK series? Back in 2002 when I first got on the Internet and message boards, the series was still quite favored, with only a small amount of people who disagreed. I might be wrong in assuming this, but I’m guessing John will be the person to answer that question (no offense intended in any direction).

Frank Jewett was picking apart the series, or more specifically Sayama, forever. Pretty much every point against Sayama made in the "recent" backluash/rethinking of Sayama is a mirror of what he poked and kicked in the late 90s / early 00s. Not saying he influenced anyone on it back than: he picked apart most things Juniors, and a lot of the current Backlash Crowd happened to be on the opposite side of the debate from him back then as they were still in their Juniors Luv period. This is something I think I mentioned as well recently.

 

I recall that I and others often pointed to Sayama-Kobayashi as the better series than Sayama-DK, and that was something I said after the first TM set even before coming on line (which got some interesting reactions).

 

By 2002, I'm pretty sure that people like Dylan who goes back a long time online was pointing to DK-Fujinami as his The Shit! juniors matches in the early 90s, and the one that people really should be checking out rather than that DK-Sayama match.

 

Sayama slagging wasn't that rare at the time. The "backlash" against him in the 80s NJPW set was easily one of the most predictable things of the entire 80s project.

 

John

[goodhelmet]

FFFFFFFF

Come on, you can do better than this!

 

I had written down some stuff but after thinking about it and for several different reasons I just deleted it. Instead of writing edit, I just closed my eyes, decided to have some fun and picked a letter on the keyboard. FFFFFF means nothing at all since it was random though it does kind of come out as me going FFFFFUUUUCCCCKKK* which is kind of funny.

 

Rey Mysterio Jr was heavily influenced by TM and DK's matches. IIRC and I can't quote anymore since I read the interview in the late 90s -- He loved their athleticism and I believe their quick creative thinking. Since Rey I beleive would like to sit in the arena, look at the ring and imagine a creative match taking place inside his head I imagine he truly appreciated TM and DK's work. It's always my belief that it's harder to come up with this stuff right away at the pace DK and Tiger were doing and matches that display it no matter who it is always gets me worked up more emotionally.

Than I went on to how Sayama is such an influence to a high percentage of wrestlers eitheri seemingly directly Saskue/Lyger - or indirectly. Than I think I complimented the Sabu post since I'm such a huge Sabu mark. But yeah basically, I have to give up message board posting unless I'm really excited like I am over the Savage/Garvin Best Territory Match of the 80s candidate or somrthing like that. It's a bad habit (that can accumulate with others) that distracts one from their goals in life and I was kind of disguested at myself for sinking into a habit that I really shoud give up for the most part so I said screw it, you can't keep on doing this RE. You can't correct everyone. Work on yourself as any being should always be doing. Reduce message board posting to absolute minimal talk and save that for productive sensible people with productive type posting. Habits wether they're good, bad or ok are extremely powerful forces in ones life. Remember that kids.

Also remember this the next time you post something

 

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

 

 

I think it's the most compelling argument he's made yet

UWFI = Pro Wrestling = Pancrase = Pride = MMA.

 

Seriously, you guys are not giving this post the love that it deserves.

[jdw]

Walk away from the post, Will.

 

 

 

John

[Childs]

We're no-selling it in tribute to DK and Sayama no-selling those tombstones on the floor.

[S.L.L.]

The grammar in that post is really good. If he were a great poster like Sayama was a great wrestler, 90% of the words would be misspelled and the punctuation would be nonexistent. The 10% of words he spelled right would be big, impressive ones, but seriously, that post had mostly good spelling and grammar, and effectively communicated a message using mostly simple terms. It was like a Jerry Lawler post. Absolutely terrible. Worst post ever, and anyone who disagrees is lying in order to look cool on the internet. You can survey any group of people in the world, and they will agree with me.

[smkelly]

Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets.

If you think he is really that bad (not saying he isn't), just ban him then, man.

[Death From Above]

This thread and the DVDVR TNA Victory Road thread in one week. Horn of plenty.

[goodhelmet]

Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets.

If you think he is really that bad (not saying he isn't), just ban him then, man.

 

I don't get this post. Only two people have banning powers here... myself and Loss. There is no way in hell I would ban RE.

[Loss]

There is no way in hell that I would be up for dealing with goodhelmet if I banned RE.