The significance of a big loss

[JerryvonKramer]

The WWF had ever so slightly better luck with it in that era because of their split crews: the #2 and #3 faces didn't always have to be on the same card as Hogan. The #2 or #3 heels didn't always have to be on the same card as say Savage, and in a sense Hogan's Opponent was something of a #1-A Heel in the promotion while on that run. In Crockett, there were a lot of guys who got runs with Flair that never really felt like anything other than an Opponent: Brad, Jimmy Garvin.. and frankly Ronnie in 1987. He didn't feel like a bigger face than say Dusty, or Nikita, or Barry.

I think the big difference is that Hogan was the superman face, so they could feed him "big men" or monster heels. Whether it was Afa/ Sika, Bossman, Akeem, Bundy, Earthquake, or whoever, you could basically through ANY 300lb+ guy in there and he'd at least feel like a credible threat.

 

Flip that round and the idea of Garvin or Terry Taylor taking on Flair just isn't the same.

 

But the IDEA is also fundamentally different:

 

In NWA the idea that keeps fans engaged is that ANYONE on any given day has at least a chance of beating the champ.

 

In WWF it's watching the superheo prevail over the latest big brute (see above) or, slightly less often, the evil genius (e.g. DiBiase).

 

WWF almost always ran at least TWO programmes that you could legitimately call "main event". In '87 it was Hogan/Andre and then Steamboat/ Savage; in '88 it was Hogan/ Andre alongside Savage/ Dibiase; '89 it was Hogan/ Savage, Warrior/ Rude; '90 it was Hogan/Warrior with Dusty/ Savage (later Dusty/ DiBiase), etc.

 

That was one thing I always thought WWF did better than Crockett, because even BEYOND that, not including the tag title scene, the number 3 feud was always strong and main-eventy as well: Piper/ Adonis in '87, whatever Honkytonk man was upto in '88, Jake/ Andre in '89, Jake/ DiBiase in '90.

 

Point being, any of those number 3 feuds could probably have been number 1 or 2 feuds in NWA AND the WWF didn't always put the top face against the top heel. Best example is the period of '88 when the Megapowers, company's top 2 faces, feuded with the Twin Towers (Bossman and Akeem), who obviously weren't the top two heels (who were either STILL DiBiase and Andre or if not DiBiase and Rude). So you've got at least 3 faces and 3 heels at any one time who can legit work a main event angle if required.

 

By like late 1990, early 1991 before Flair came in, when they had Slaughter, Mr. Perfect, Undertaker etc. plus DiBiase, Savage and so on, they probably had 5+ heels who could work angles or matches with Hogan or Warrior as and when required and it wouldn't look "weird" on top of the card in the same way Garvin vs. Flair or Taylor vs. Flair or Morton vs. Flair does.

 

When you look at it that way, the WWF face-champ model makes a lot more sense than the NWA heel-champ one. The latter was set up for the territories, but for a national company I don't think it works at all. That doesn't mean you HAVE to have a face champ 100% of the time -- no reason why DiBiase couldn't have had a run in '88, for example, or Andre for that matter -- but that you know the heel champ would be dropping it back to a Hogan or a Savage and feuding with them while carrying it.

 

In NWA, what did you have instead? The big face gains some momentum, chases the title, then either fails to beat Flair in which case it takes him a year+ to get back to that level again, or he beats him has a brief run as an interim champ before dropping it back to him, in which case it takes him a year+ to get back to that level again. Where does the face go from from there? In WWF, a heel could have a run with Hogan, then after failing to win the title get a nice upper-midcard/ second-main event level feud with a Savage or Warrior or Dusty or Piper or Jake.

[jdw]

And Ron Garvin and Flair had a long standing feud. It's not as if Garvin came out of the blue as a guy who was feuding with Flair and was a World Title Challenger.

Didn't say it came out of nowhere, and am familar with the earlier JCP feud (and enjoyed it). But...

 

Ronnie was something of a "filler" opponent. Not as much filler as the Brad Armstrong was, but not really top tier earlier in JCP. Nikita, Maggie, Dusty then Morton... those seemed like more focused, intense, bigger pushed feuds in that 1985-86 time frame. With Flair you always juggled who he was booked against because some place like Greensboro or Charlotte would get the first run of it, but other cities could be *months* away from getting it, especially in the expansion period. So they often had multiple people warmed up to go against Flair, and generally always had Dusty they could throw against him when breaking in a new city. Ronnie felt like something belo that.

 

 

 

Every babyface made a point of challenging Flair in interviews, and his angle with Flair was more him helping Jimmy when Ric was horndogging over Precious than a world title program. It came off (to me at least) as something to keep Flair occupied until the next Big Angle kicked off, and all of a sudden Ronnie was champ.

I thought all of the angle worked fairly well. I suspect I like the Flair-Jimmy better than most at the time since I was just watching it on TV, and thought the TV aspect was interesting: new opponent rather than the Usual Suspects, and Jimmy turning face felt like something new as well. Didn't seem like Crockett's fans enjoyed it, as it wasn't a big draw. I didn't see any of the matches at the time other than the cage match.

 

Ronnie was a solid extension of that, and the TV aspect of it was very good: some of Flair's best stuff, even the campy Date With Precious.

 

 

I think it gets overlooked that no matter how or why he got the belt, it added several years on his career he probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, jobbing to Boris Zuhkov in 1990 or whatever is bad, but I don't think he even gets hired by Vince if he isn't a former NWA champion. Ronnie was winding down as it was in JCP, people forget he was in the business over 20 years by the time he won the title. So the way I see it, it was like a lifetime achievement award that got him a year of WWF paychecks that were probably double what JCP was paying (and even if they weren't at least he could cash them).

I don't know how much it added. Dusty tended to have Dusty's Guys and he tended to take care of them. So he would have been around through the end of 1988 (frankly was there most of the year). I don't know what his relationship with Flair was, but if he got in with him he might have been able to get a decent multi-year contract from Turner. It's just a matter of getting there.

 

He didn't last all that long in the WWF. So it didn't add a *ton* of years to his career. As pointed out, he was essentially job fodder by 1990.

 

John

[jdw]

See, on TBS for YEARS they'd do these mini Ron Garvin/ Flair feuds before 87 and Jimmy and Precious. They had lots matches on TV and at house shows, especially in 85. Ron Garvin was the utility top guy to fight Flair during and between various angles. It wasn't just Garvin challenging him in promos or Flair listing him in his "lists of guys" promos.

 

At least that's how it comes off after watching Will's Horseman set.

That hits it far clearer than I did. "utility guy" is perhaps fairer than "filler" as well.

 

John

[Bix]

For what it's worth, in his book, J.J. Dillon said part of the philosophy behind the Flair-Garvin programs, especially in '87, was to have stiffer/more hard hitting main events to differentiate JCP from the WWF.

[Johnny Sorrow]

In case it's not already evident, I'm a huge Ronnie Garvin fan.

 

And the Jimmy Garvin/ Flair feud may not have been accepted by Crockett fans as well as it should have been, but as a Crockett fan who was at the Philly Civic Center the night Jimmy Garvin officially turned face, I can tell you the roof blew off the place when Sharp Dressed Man hit and Jimmy ran out to be Wahoo's partner against the MXE. (The fireball angle had just aired on Worldwide THAT same Saturday in the afternoon on Philly 17, and it was supposed to be Wahoo and Ronnie vs. The MXE that night. The Express came out wearing the stolen US Tag belts, Wahoo came out by himself, got on the mic and said something like, "Oh I have a partner..." and ZZ Top blares as Jimmy charges the ring and the MXE head for cover.)

[JerryvonKramer]

Do you think Harley Race ever recovered from the loss to Flair in 1983? I mean was that match the semi-official end to Harley being considered a main eventer? He was only 40 in 83. To put that in context, Flair was 40 in 1989, Savage was 40 in 1992, Hogan was 40 in 1993, and Triple H was 40 last year.

 

Point is, he wasn't that old in wrestling terms.

[smkelly]

I think it was more health issues and Vince buying out St. Louis that ended Harley's days as a main eventer. Age might have had some to do with it too.

[sek69]

Harley looked way more aged at 40 than any of those other guys. He made an appearance on Saturday Night right before showing up in the WWF when he would have been around 43, and he looked at least 10-15 years older than he was. Not sure if it was from his ring style, or living hard out of the ring (or a combination of both).

[JerryvonKramer]

Recent Dino Bravo talk made me wonder about his loss to Kerry Von Erich are WM7. Seems like that was his last real big match and after that he was pure JTTS after being "protected" like jdw said.

[Matt D]

Recent Dino Bravo talk made me wonder about his loss to Kerry Von Erich are WM7. Seems like that was his last real big match and after that he was pure JTTS after being "protected" like jdw said.

 

That match is the worst. I always forget how bad it is and have to watch it now and again to remind myself. I actually like the finish a lot in theory, but it's just a terrible terrible 3 minute match. I guess the way the match is laid out isn't terrible, to be honest (Bravo attacks at the bell while Kerry is getting his coat off, gets a lot of offense in early, Kerry comes back. Dino blocks the claw, hits the side slam. Kerry kicks out. Dino goes up to the second rope in desperation. Kerry catches him in the claw, hits the discus punch, match), but the execution sure as hell is the drizzling shits. Wretched punches. Weak chops. Both the worst atomic drop AND inverted atomic drops. Lame head slams into the apron. The blocked claw sequence looking miserable. Kerry backing up six steps for no reason so he can get clotheslined over the top. The worst.

 

And yes, not only did Bravo lose that match but Kerry also kicked out of his finish.

[JerryvonKramer]

On that note, is the sidewalk slam possibly the lamest finisher in wrestling history? It's basically a normal move.

[Loss]

Possibly, but I really hate the concepts of finishers in general and don't think wrestlers should even have them. Signature moves, yes. Finishers, no. But that's a different topic.

[Matt D]

On that note, is the sidewalk slam possibly the lamest finisher in wrestling history? It's basically a normal move.

If the move is protected and no one else is using it, it's fine. Big Show's deadliest move right now is a punch, and it's protected like no one's business. Hell Cena's finish is an overglorified fireman's carry takeover. Henry's is just picking up the guy and falling on them, basically. It's all in the presentation.

 

In WWE neither DDTs or Pile Drivers matter in the least.

[JerryvonKramer]

Was Bravo's sidewalk slam ever given any sort of build or protection though? It was such an anticlimactic way to end a match.

[Matt D]

Was Bravo's sidewalk slam ever given any sort of build or protection though? It was such an anticlimactic way to end a match.

Oh the move was a killer in 87-88. It was a match ender. When Hogan or Warrior kicked out of it in 90, that was the first time I remember that happening.

[khawk20]

Was Bravo's sidewalk slam ever given any sort of build or protection though? It was such an anticlimactic way to end a match.

FWIW his finisher when he was a smaller, more agile wrestler was the Airplane spin.

 

I wonder what other moves were "available" that he could have used in it's place...maybe all the good ones were already being used in the WWF, and that was all he/they could come up with as a power-finisher.

[Matt D]

And it was better than, let's say Duggan's running clothesline out of the three point stance (because he used clotheslines throughout the match), but that was super over.

 

Neither here nor there, but I felt bad for the RnRs when they came back in 90, because they were still using the Double Dropkick. Well and good except for the fact that as opposed to 1985, every babyface team had that as just a regular move. The Dynamic Dudes were doing it in the middle of a match. THAT hurt things.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the thing that hurt most of the southern tagteams in the 90s (RnRs, Midnights etc) were their bellies. Worst for it were the Garvin and Hayes version of the Freebirds.

[El-P]

Neither here nor there, but I felt bad for the RnRs when they came back in 90, because they were still using the Double Dropkick. Well and good except for the fact that as opposed to 1985, every babyface team had that as just a regular move. The Dynamic Dudes were doing it in the middle of a match. THAT hurt things.

I'm watching this period right now, and yes, the RnR's offense does look dated compared to the new blowjob tag teams of Dynamic Dudes, Zenk & Pillman and Southern Boys. But they are still an excellent working team despite the lack of new exciting offense. And the double dropkick was still over when they did it, so it shows that everything is perception.

That said, I would have loved to get the Rockers thrown in this mix, opposing Doom and the MX.

[El-P]

I think the thing that hurt most of the southern tagteams in the 90s (RnRs, Midnights etc) were their bellies. Worst for it were the Garvin and Hayes version of the Freebirds.

Hurt in what ways ? To get a job in the WWF, yes. Otherwise, I don't see it as a problem, especially for heels. I like my old school wrestlers with bellies.

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there, but I felt bad for the RnRs when they came back in 90, because they were still using the Double Dropkick. Well and good except for the fact that as opposed to 1985, every babyface team had that as just a regular move. The Dynamic Dudes were doing it in the middle of a match. THAT hurt things.

I'm watching this period right now, and yes, the RnR's offense does look dated compared to the new blowjob tag teams of Dynamic Dudes, Zenk & Pillman and Southern Boys. But they are still an excellent working team despite the lack of new exciting offense. And the double dropkick was still over when they did it, so it shows that everything is perception.

That said, I would have loved to get the Rockers thrown in this mix, opposing Doom and the MX.

 

Looking back, and especially how over the MX were as faces, I would have really liked to see RnR turn heel at that point, annoyed with the fans cheering the Midnights.

[El-P]

The MX never registered with me as faces. I was so glad to see them turn back heels. I'm about to the point when Cornette and Lane left, and they are still clearly the best tag team in the US, head and shoulders abover everyone else. It's a shame WCW fucked around with them, there was still ton of mileage to get from them, at least until the mid 90's.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the thing that hurt most of the southern tagteams in the 90s (RnRs, Midnights etc) were their bellies. Worst for it were the Garvin and Hayes version of the Freebirds.

Hurt in what ways ? To get a job in the WWF, yes. Otherwise, I don't see it as a problem, especially for heels. I like my old school wrestlers with bellies.

 

I think it hurt because - at least in the case of RnR and the Freebirds - part of the gimmick is that they were pretty boys who girls screamed for.

 

Now, I've said it many times, that RnR were two of the ugliest guys I've ever seen, but the fact is they had girls screaming. How can you have girls screaming being THAT ugly AND with a beer gut when you've got the likes of Shawn Michaels in the Rockers in WWF or even people like Zenk around in WCW?

 

Freebirds in the early 90s were just sad.

[JerryvonKramer]

[phantom double post]

[Matt D]

Freebirds in the early 90s were just sad.

I find the early 90s Freebirds pretty fascinating, in how they were booked, how many chances they were given, the fact both Hayes and Garvin were pretty smart guys when it came to psychology and wrestling in general so they couldn't be COMPLETELY deluded, the music video/live performance disaster, the match vs the Dynamic Dudes where they were hugely cheered, Badstreet/Fantasia, Big Daddy Dink, Precious as the behind the scenes GM, the weirdness with the late Johnny B Badd match, JR's complete and utter lack of caring when Jimmy Garvin was announced as the mystery Freebird.

 

It's a three year trainwreck basically.