Victator Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Taz in 2000, pretty much says it all. Taz went from being a killer in ECW to jobbing to everyone in the WWF. Consider how promising Taz(z)'s WWF career started, he debuted at the 2000 RR, defeating the undefeated Kurt Angle by submission no less. He was then allowed to go over and take the ECW championship belt from Mike Awesome, before returning to defend it in the WWF. Instead, Tazz was squashed by Triple H in a champion vs champion match, Tazz then dropped the belt to Tommy Dreamer and returned to the WWF, where he was thrown into the messy hardcore division and did nothing worth note until 2002, where he briefly held the tag titles with Spike Dudley...Now Taz, who went from wrestler to acclaimed commentator works for TNA, a rumored result of Vince McMahon's control freak nature over the headset. I would not say Taz was squashed by HHH He got a decent amount of offense in. It was still really stupid ECW allowed their World Title to be treated like that. But if it was a normal WWF title match I would say he made a respectable showing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 It was definitely strange how things went down with the ECW title. Awesome defected to WCW as the reigning ECW Champion, is beaten by a WWF wrestler in Tazz, who turns around and jobs it to Tommy Dreamer who then loses it on the same night. Not how I would treat my World Heavyweight Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 One of the more interesting parts of the first WWE ECW DVD set was in the documentary, where Vince talked about the Tazz/HHH match. He actually outright said that, while he must have had a reason at the time for putting HHH over since he wouldn't have done it if he didn't have a reason, he couldn't remember what it was, couldn't think of one, and said that in hindsight, it was a mistake. I never really liked Taz, so I don't really care one way or the other about it, but very weird to see Vince openly acknowledging that he screwed something up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 I had forgotten about that. Vince seemed to have genuine regrets about not helping ECW at their end. It was an interesting watch - I had never seen Vince out of character before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Hell, how many guys got more than one big run against Backlund? Don Muraco...anyone else?Greg Valentine. 1979, 1981, and then in a non-title series in 1984. I think there was at least one other guy that went around with Backlund twice but I am drawing a blank. Tabe Slaughter in 80/81, and again in 83. Muraco too, in 81 and again in 83, as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Re: Vader's debut. I thought he had to go in for surgery or something along those lines. So he destroyed Monsoon and then they couldn't do much with him for a few months. I might have the timeline wrong. I think he already needed surgery when he worked the Dome Show and had a great match with Inoki. Vader debuted later in the month at the Royal Rumble, then worked the following RAW, and was off the road for a few. So, I guess the timeline is right, unless he got surgery between the Dome Show and the Rumble. The other HUGE problem Vader has about 96 is that they ran Michaels vs Vader on house shows all around the loop before Summerslam 96 with Vader losing cleanly. So by the time the PPV hit the majority of the fanbase who would have ordered the PPV had already seen the match and a definitive result. The Vader shoot is pretty good. Believe the reason for this is Vader was meant to get the title at the time those shows were booked, and Shawn talked his way out of it. It was a given he wouldnt have jobbed in a bunch of return matches, so they tried to get money our of it on the house show loop first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 The other HUGE problem Vader has about 96 is that they ran Michaels vs Vader on house shows all around the loop before Summerslam 96 with Vader losing cleanly. So by the time the PPV hit the majority of the fanbase who would have ordered the PPV had already seen the match and a definitive result. Really? I have a hard time believing that the fanbase that would have ordered the PPV were following house show results. The net wasn't something everyone had, and even less had subs to the Observer or the Torch or whatever, and hell...the PWI mags results were always 3 months late. Wouldn't the same general kids audience for WWF still have gotten their folks to get it? Shit, I ordered it and I wasn't a kid, I was 26 and I had no idea about house show results. But back to the "kid" thing, wouldn't it seem more likely that a lot of fans were choosing between WWF and WCW at the time and choosing WCW? I'm just saying, off the top of my head I'm thinking WCW was kicking some ass at the time. I most certainly could be wrong. And Taz didn't have a fall from grace. The guy's neck was fucked in ECW yet he managed to get the bigtime contract, debut big, wind down his career, and get a commentary gig for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Vader's point was that the match was over exposed to each market. Fans in Bloatsburg were less likely to order Summerslam because they saw the match and Vader lost clean. They also did stuff like jobbing out Vader on house shows to Warrior and Ahmed Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Believe the reason for this is Vader was meant to get the title at the time those shows were booked, and Shawn talked his way out of it. I have a hard time believing that Vader was taking the title in August. Vader beat Shawn in the six man tag in July, which led to Vader's Title shot. Although not really in the WWF at the time, it's pretty standard booking to have the champion drop the fall in a tag match or non title match, to then set up a title match, which he'd then win to avenge the loss. Example: Kawada beats Misawa in 6/95 tag title match, Misawa beats Kawada in 7/95 Triple Crown match, Ricky Morton pins Flair on TV in tag match, Flair beats Ricky around the loop in title matches during the '86 GAB tour. Not to mention that Mankind was already waiting in the wings to challenge for the title the next month (hence the Septmeber '96 IYH being "Mind Games"). I know that Vader was supposed to take the title in November and Shawn had it changed to Sid (which is why the December IYH was called "It's Time"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Guess I'm getting SummerSlam and Survivor Series confused, I just knew the plan was for Vader to beat Shawn for the belt that year and Shawn talked Vince into giving Sid the spot WWF at some point did a reversal on their house show booking though, and it didn't start with Vader and Shawn. It went from first match on TV/PPV->house shows in the 80's to at some point the opposite. I know for example they did Luger and Yoko all summer with DQ finishes leading up to SummerSlam 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Did Shawn have it changed? I thought it was because JJ Dillon jumped back to WCW around that time and Vince didn't want them to know all their booking plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 The way I've always known it is because Shawn disliked how Vader manhandled him. HBK threatened to get him fired or something to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Vader's point was that the match was over exposed to each market. Fans in Bloatsburg were less likely to order Summerslam because they saw the match and Vader lost clean. I'm not trying to be a dick, but do ya really think the "fans in Bloatsburg" who took the time and spent the money to go to a house show would NOT pick up the phone and buy SummerSlam? I'd imagine those fans were the ones still buying WWF shows unless something better and hotter was available to spend money on to watch at home on a Sunday night. Possibly the week before? WCW Hog Wild was the first PPV with the NWO as a unit and Hogan as a heel for crying out loud. I'm just saying that WCW kicking ass is more likely the reason SummerSlam didn't sell more PPV's than "People saw house show matches." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 The way I've always known it is because Shawn disliked how Vader manhandled him. HBK threatened to get him fired or something to that effect. Yeah when Vader first came in both Shawn and Taker read him the riot act about working too stiff. But the SS '96 story I thought had more to do with JJ working in the WWF office then jumping ship to WCW. Vince was afraid Bischoff was going to have another "he beats the big guy with 3 superkicks" situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 The way I've always known it is because Shawn disliked how Vader manhandled him. HBK threatened to get him fired or something to that effect. Yeah when Vader first came in both Shawn and Taker read him the riot act about working too stiff. But the SS '96 story I thought had more to do with JJ working in the WWF office then jumping ship to WCW. Vince was afraid Bischoff was going to have another "he beats the big guy with 3 superkicks" situation. He couldn't win a green belt at the local YMCA with those kicks, by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 A different sort of a "Fall from grace" would be Greg Gagne. Hard as it is to believe, Greg was very over and popular as a member of the High Flyers between 74 and 83. His singles bits during that time were also well-received--he was a legit challenger to Bockwinkel in 1979 after winning a non-title TV bout against him. (I know, hard to believe...). Greg began to lose his shine with the fans in a big way as 1984 began, with the proliferation of big-muscled wrestlers. Greg looked smaller against 240-260 pound guys like Bock and Raschke, but he looked absolutely puny compared to the LOD, Brody, Atlas, and Hansen...never mind the larger wrestlers in the other areas, particularly the WWF. As expansion by the WWF moved onward, more and more people were able to see the huge size difference between Greg and others, and combined with the propensity of people to cheer the large muscle guys, good or bad, in larger numbers, Greg lost credibility with the fan base in the AWA as a "main-event" performer. Now, he was a little older and his skills had diminished slightly, but he was still basically the same guy in 84-85-86. Yet people really began to hate him. It became too hard to believe that Greg could realistically win against some of the guys he wrestled, and when he did...ouch. people hated him more. I think if Greg would have wrestled from say 1964 to 1984, instead of 1974 through 1989, wrestling fans would remember Greg as a much better wrestler than they do. Greg's fall from grace is all about the era he unfortunately had to conclude his career in, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 How about Mutoh. He went from having a career revival in 2000/2001 to destroying All Japan with bad booking and being on top of the company in the span of about a year. He actually has 2 or 3 big fall from graces really. He had a really hot 1995 as the IWGP Champ and then fell of a cliff in 1996 due to his laziness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 How about Mutoh. He went from having a career revival in 2000/2001 to destroying All Japan with bad booking and being on top of the company in the span of about a year. He actually has 2 or 3 big fall from graces really. He had a really hot 1995 as the IWGP Champ and then fell of a cliff in 1996 due to his laziness. What ? Mutoh really saved All Japan from going under, the company was going nowhere fast after the exodus. You couldn't run Tenryu vs Kawada for ever. Mutoh never had any fall from grace, he's been a big star for the last 20 years, got his own company, delivered memorable matches late in his career... I don't see any fall from grace at any point in Mutoh's career, he reinvented himself at the right moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 He had several. He was great in 1995 and then largely sucked until 2000 when he shaved his head and debuted his new offense with the Shining Wizard. Then he went to All Japan with Hashimoto and KaShin (is that right?) and largely had the company going in a horrible direction until they settled into being the no. 4 promotion and found their own voice as a company. He's remained a star throughout but there are clear ups and downs to his inring work. I mean there are some brutal years with him in the late 90s where he just didn't give a fuck. I mean look at him in 2000 WCW. Can you believe that guy turned into the guy you saw a few months later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 You're gonna judge Mutoh from what he did in WCW in 2000 ? Come on. He didn't even want to be there, it was under Russo, he hated it. Mutoh has had tons of excellent matches from 95 to 00, and except for a few infamous terrible ones, including the Takada sabotage, I don't see how Mutoh "sucked" during this period. Hell, Mutoh during the 1996 G1 Climax was excellent. He went in AJ with Kojima, not Hash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Oh, you're right. Hashimoto won the Triple Crown as a freelancer didn't he. I'm not really comparing his WCW run. Just that he was unmotivated. We'll just have to disagree on this. I think Mutoh was terrible with a few shining moments post 1995. I can rattle off tons of stuff in the early to mid 90s but I honestly couldn't tell you a good Mutoh off the top of my head other than his Dome Show match against Chono in 2000. I mean 1995, I don't remember seeing a bad Mutoh match. That was probably the last truly great Flair match I remember seeing when he and Mutoh fought in the 95 G-1 Climax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I'd agree that All Japan sucked from the split in 2000 until early to mid 2003 or so. But Mutoh and Kojima jumping actually caused them to do well financially, with a long string of sellouts. Would anyone consider Jumbo Tsuruta from 1993 and afterward to be a fall from grace? The former top man, and one of the greatest of all time, regulated to the opening match comedy with Rusher Kimura, Haruka Eigen, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Mad Dog, check out the Mutoh/Hashimoto G1 Final from 1995. One of the best NJPW matches of the 1990's. As already mentioned, Mutoh was great in the '96 G1 too. He had a killer match with Kazuo Yamazaki on the opening night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 No. I think he gets a pass because it was health related. I think Terry Gordy under the same guideline doesn't take heat for his post coma work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Mad Dog, check out the Mutoh/Hashimoto G1 Final from 1995. One of the best NJPW matches of the 1990's. As already mentioned, Mutoh was great in the '96 G1 too. He had a killer match with Kazuo Yamazaki on the opening night. The 95 G-1 Climax was the first heavyweight puro stuff I watched when I started getting into that stuff. I've watched about everything from 1995 that Mutoh did because he was just that good that year. The Flair match from that same tournament was great and I liked the Austin title defense from around that summer too. I love that Hashimoto match too. That was the perfect final to the tournament and really capped off what a great year he was having at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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