Biggest fall from grace

[MJH]

Would anyone consider Jumbo Tsuruta from 1993 and afterward to be a fall from grace? The former top man, and one of the greatest of all time, regulated to the opening match comedy with Rusher Kimura, Haruka Eigen, etc.?

 

I'd really like to think the answer for everyone would be "no" for obvious reasons... (edit: yes, I'm the same with Gordy).

 

***

 

As far as Mutoh in All Japan goes, it's worked out in the end. I remember buying a tape, I believe called "Complete Collection 2001", basically a year-in-review, where Taiyo Kea did a promo at the start of the tape asking for the fans support.

 

For the last few years, though, they've been doing fairly well. They're not doing great business, but they've got a sustainable, profitable model, with some good young talent. It's not setting the world on fire, and it's probably got the weakest week-to-week level of "work" of what were the big three companies, but it looks far more stable than NOAH and is a perfectly fine product in the current climate. I'm only upto last years RWTL, but this year's Carnival, for instance, has gotten strong reviews from those that have seen it.

[Mad Dog]

I agree. I think once they started things like the VooDoo Murders stable and such that they had largely saved the promotion. But the early Mutoh years were rough and there was a ton of bad blood towards him for how he was booking and such.

 

How about NOAH as a promotion? They went from challenging New Japan as the top promotion to being in shambles in a matter of years because they failed to build new stars for the future. Really, NOAH hasn't been the same since Misawa died.

[Victator]

I enjoyed Muta in 2000 WCW. He was not having good matches but he was very entertaining personality. I liked some of his stuff with Sting that year.

[smkelly]

I enjoyed Muta in 2000 WCW. He was not having good matches but he was very a very entertaining personality. I liked some of his stuff with Sting that year.

It was interesting as hell because I didn't have a clue who the guy was. WCW debuted some cool talent in 2000. The Wall was my favorite; Vampiro was cool for a while and he actually got over as a face, and Mike Awesome was an incredible acquisition because I had already watched him on ECW destroying Masato Tanaka over the ECW Title, and in some of the best free television giveaway matches of all-time too.

[flyonthewall2983]

As a team, Demolition fell pretty fast. They went from tag champions to doing jobs for the Road Warriors to becoming pretty much a JTTS tag team. They got Fuji back as their manager and some completely nondescript theme music. Granted Ax/Eadie left but it was still a pretty fast fall.

The brief "gimp-mask" period didn't help much either.

 

 

Don't forget Vader falling flat on a his ass during that RAW from 2005 where he and Goldust were Coach's goons.

You can't make me.

[JerryvonKramer]

Safe to say that the definitive answer for this is Billy Graham.

[tigerpride]

Owen Hart had the biggest fall

[JerryvonKramer]

[Mad Dog]

Safe to say that the definitive answer for this is Billy Graham.

I disagree. He was more a case of being hot for a really short period of time.

[Ricky Jackson]

Graham was a huge star for most of the 70s in multiple territories.

 

Backlund's fall was maybe greater--going from 6 years on top in NYC to out of wrestling completely in about two years.

[Matt D]

Amusingly, from a layman's perspective, late era Buddy Rose, Ken Patera, and Greg Gagne are all jokes. This is why Dylan's blood pressure is so high.

[JerryvonKramer]

Safe to say that the definitive answer for this is Billy Graham.

I disagree. He was more a case of being hot for a really short period of time.

 

I'm assuming you've not seen his kung-fu moves.

[flyonthewall2983]

Backlund's fall was maybe greater--going from 6 years on top in NYC to out of wrestling completely in about two years.

And he was still pretty young when he did leave. But I don't think he has any regrets about being in Junior's machine that took over once he did leave. He didn't have any major breakdowns, drug and/or legal problems. I don't know the specifics but it sounded like he just left on his own terms, which to me goes against the idea of a "fall from grace". Then he came back when it was clear Vince was going to feature younger and smaller guys.

[SteveJRogers]

The Miz since he has been one of the biggest jokes in wrestling since retaining the championship against Cena at WM XXVII.

 

I mean he was ALWAYS a joke, but seems to have become even bigger of one in the last couple of years.

[Loss]

Miz would probably mean more to the bottom line if he was an obnoxious manager who was able to take bumps instead of a wrestler who we are supposed to see as credible. Even a half wrestler/manager like Eddie Gilbert in the UWF would be a better use of him.

[vicious&delicious]

Miz was on a rocket to the top. Creative was behind him. The crowds were into the Miz and Riley act. When he won it truly felt like his time. But the second he won, the WWE immediately started treating him like a joke. He was in a long feud with Jerry Lawler which forced him to need the help of his lackey (Alex Riley) to fend off a 60-year old part time wrestler. After barely defeating an AARP member, they put him in a feud with Cena where he was never booked as an equal. They then turned his lackey, leaving his chickensh*t heel character without his muscle. His weak looking offense was exposed, he lost his title and got lost in the shuffle. As he spiraled down the card, viewers had to suffer through periodic long winded interview segments where Miz would reflect on what a joke he had become. But instead of their being a payoff for his whining, he just kept on moving further down the card.

 

Part of me feels like if they had just given him a few wins with Rileys help against credible opponents during his title reign we would be having a different conversation right now.

[Loss]

I don't know that it matters so much anymore, as it's all in how wrestlers are presented, but Miz was a transplanted personality from reality TV, and it did sort of make it seem like anyone off the street can become WWE champ with a little bit of training. It's not David Arquette winning the WCW World title bad, but I remember Kevin Nash arguing something about Miz being a questionable choice for champ for that reason, and me thinking it wasn't completely without merit.

[Guest Staples]

/

[Matt D]

I don't know that it matters so much anymore, as it's all in how wrestlers are presented, but Miz was a transplanted personality from reality TV, and it did sort of make it seem like anyone off the street can become WWE champ with a little bit of training. It's not David Arquette winning the WCW World title bad, but I remember Kevin Nash arguing something about Miz being a questionable choice for champ for that reason, and me thinking it wasn't completely without merit.

I think there was sort of a boyhood dream element with the Miz that they could have played up and didn't. It's also that he won it using the MITB briefcase in a bs manner. He also worked his way up from the tag belts to the mid-level belts, to winning it. In context it's not as bad as "Reality star wins title!"

[mookeighana]

When I look at the work I did for my WWF Overly Complicated ELO Theory the five people who had the largest OCELOT score drops in a year were (with ridiculous specificity):

 

Bret Hart Survivor Series 1996 to Survivor Series 1997: Bret beats Austin for #1 contendership sliding to his feud with Jerry Lawler and firing in 1997.

CM Punk 9/25/09 - 9/25/10 MSG: Punk comes off PPV wins over Jeff Hardy and the Undertaker but he loses his title to Undertaker in the opener of Hell in a Cell (Oct 2009), loses the rematches, starts SES and loses his hair to Rey, and eventually SES breaks up.

The Miz 3/14/11 to RAW 3/12/12: Miz technically defeats Cena at WM by the next year he's a random foe in the Johnny vs Teddy ubertag with 12 men that went under 11 minutes.

Sheamus July 2010 to 3/15/11: He's WWE Champion and beats Cena at both Fatal 4-Way and MITB. Less than a year later, he's King Sheamus and losing to Triple H.

 

None of these really feel like huge BURYING, but you can see the contrast being (on paper) being on the very top to losing to the top people and being in midcard feuds (for Punk, Miz, Sheamus examples).

 

I always thought the Iron Sheik had quite the top of the card, bottom of the card experience, but I know he was really just a transition champ.

[Jimmy Redman]

Miz was on a rocket to the top. Creative was behind him. The crowds were into the Miz and Riley act. When he won it truly felt like his time. But the second he won, the WWE immediately started treating him like a joke. He was in a long feud with Jerry Lawler which forced him to need the help of his lackey (Alex Riley) to fend off a 60-year old part time wrestler. After barely defeating an AARP member, they put him in a feud with Cena where he was never booked as an equal. They then turned his lackey, leaving his chickensh*t heel character without his muscle. His weak looking offense was exposed, he lost his title and got lost in the shuffle. As he spiraled down the card, viewers had to suffer through periodic long winded interview segments where Miz would reflect on what a joke he had become. But instead of their being a payoff for his whining, he just kept on moving further down the card.

 

Part of me feels like if they had just given him a few wins with Rileys help against credible opponents during his title reign we would be having a different conversation right now.

I also feel like the timing (in the year) was bad too. Having him win in late November and come into Wrestlemania as champion made him really stand out as a guy who wasn't on that level yet. Especially because the build to WM27 was John Cena and The Rock feuding with each other. He was left looking like a little kid in the background gesticulating wildly trying to get our attention.

 

I often compared his situation to Edge's, and while at the time a lot of people were upset that Edge had a three week reign and they went back to Hunter for WM, I think in the end it worked out much better for him, because he wasn't trying to play a Mania main eventer before he was ready to. Instead he got a big win over Foley on the show and used it to lead into his summer push to the top, where there is less scrutiny.

 

My fantasy plan for Miz was just to delay his cash in until after WM27. So he gets his world title run after Mania where they are able to focus on him, and they have about 9 months from after MITB to build him up to that level, like Edge had.

[SteveJRogers]

I don't know that it matters so much anymore, as it's all in how wrestlers are presented, but Miz was a transplanted personality from reality TV, and it did sort of make it seem like anyone off the street can become WWE champ with a little bit of training. It's not David Arquette winning the WCW World title bad, but I remember Kevin Nash arguing something about Miz being a questionable choice for champ for that reason, and me thinking it wasn't completely without merit.

I could see that being true if the MiTB match was Miz' first match ever. But he went through all the paces, went through NXT, did the tag team thing with Morrison, was in the hunt for mid-card titles, etc.

 

And as for what Nash has to say, didn't Diesel start as an "off the street" body guard? Even with the Royal Rumble booking that now bears his name and a run as IC champ and teaming with HBK, couldn't you kinda make the same case for him getting the title as quickly as he did?

[Jimmy Redman]

I don't think his reality TV background has anything to do with it, but to me Miz does give off that vibe of a guy playing a wrestler. Maybe it is his lack of an obvious athletic background, or just the way he presents himself or looks, but he just does. Even back in 2010 when he was rising to the top, when he was cutting promos and wearing suits he was gold, but once he stepped in the ring he just...lacked something. And it's not about having great matches or whatever, more just being able to project that you are an elite wrestler in a kayfabe sense. He almost never comes across as legit.

 

I think someone said it above and they're right: in another era Miz would have been a pretty good manager. A guy who can talk, get heat, come off as pretty loathsome but not intimidating, and bump like a nut for babyfaces when required.

[flyonthewall2983]

Last guy I can think of (maybe besides Del Rio currently) who pulled of the suits was Batista. I forget which match it was for the build-up for but he came out in a grey number with sunglasses. Besides the flashy suit (something he probably gleaned off from being with Flair), he gave off a heavy vibe of intimidation. He looked more like Tom Sizemore in the bank shootout in Heat than he did a pro wrestler.

[goc]

The problem with the Miz is that you can't buy him as tough. There's just nothing about the guy that says "this guy is tough/dangerous." For all the whining I saw on the internet about how they were making him look like the new Honky Tonk Man, I feel like he needed way more interference & gimmicks for his title run to work. They really needed to play it as "this guy is way too weak to keep the title against ___ challenger" and then have him jump through all kinds of hoops to get sneaking out wins. Even the PPV match with Lawler, he should have never won that match clean with a Skull Crushing Finale.