Mad Dog Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I was curious what you guys thought about Cornette waiting so long to crown champions in SMW in hindsight. I kind of feel it was a minor mistake. The television was getting really tedious leading up to the tournaments and then is immediately much more compelling the second Brian Lee has the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Agreed it took too long before he made his first champs, and the tournaments weren't very well booked. Lee was made to look weak, but he was never any good as a babyface champ anyway, he only gets fun when he turns heel. With Night of the Legends approaching, SMW becomes a bit better than in the previous weeks. Tons of awesome promos from Cornette and Armstrong, the Bodies showing up, Candido winning the TV belt again, no more Kendo, no more Well Dunn, tons of cool Night of the Legend updates. And the infamous debut of the Gangstas. So, I'll finally get to see if New Jack could indeed be considered better then HHH or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I don't think they waited too long to crown champions. I like that they took the time to get over certain guys in advance of the tournament, even if I don't think Lee was all the way where they wanted him to be by the time the tournament started. Anyway, watching the TV, I never got the feeling that the problem with the early TVs was not having champions crowned. If anything, the Heavenly Bodies vignettes were really well done and did a lot to create excitement for the tag division. That said, the heavyweight title was booked horribly and did Lee no favors when he needed a ton of help. I mean, I'm not going to begrudge him for not running through everybody with his finisher, because that wasn't the way southern territories were booked in those days, but he really should have pinned Orndorff clean, especially since it's not like they ran a Lee/Orndorff program around the horn, so it's not like they needed to protect Orndorff for rematches. I know he was still something of a name at this point, but what's the point of having Paul Orndorff if he's not going to put over your supposed company ace? Watching the end of the Volunteer Slam, you really get the feeling the guy Cornette wanted to be the top babyface was Bob Armstrong, not Brian Lee. Which is all well and good, but Bob Armstrong wasn't wrestling at this point, Brian Lee was, and Brian Lee was the guy who walked out of the show SMW champion. I don't think Lee was the right guy for that spot anyway, but even if he was, he wouldn't have gotten over because the booking made him look secondary to the commissioner, a retired 50 year old man. At least don't make the supposed top wrestler of the company look like a bag of shit, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I don't think he should've run through everyone with his finisher. But I think he should've beaten Landell or Orndorff with his finisher and got a non-fluky pinfall victory over them. Landell was annoying and could have instantly regained any heat he lost with a couple of promos. I also don't see why Orndorff and Armstrong couldn't have just fought over the weapon, Lee rolls Orndorff up in a school boy and Armstrong does the three count. The angle goes down almost the exact same way. The DQ was just dumb and instantly devalued the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 The Night of Legend TV show was good thanks to a cool little legend match between Slater/Orton and Stomper/Garvin, an insane promo from New Jack and the memorable Jericho bloodbath. Hearing the Edgar Winter Band again warmed my HB fan heart. The angle on Fire on the Mountain with neither Ricky Morton nor Sunny losing their hair came off as cheap though. Way to kill a stip, I don't care if Candido got his hair shaved. That was not the deal promised, and it feels like a cheap cop out like when The Bullet had another mask underneath when he should have unmasked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 A lot of folks think the hair stip at Fire on the Mountain killed Johnson City for SMW. Cornette (unwisely) figured the fans didn't really want to see Ricky Morton get his head shaved, so they would be happy with him not getting his head shaved and instead shaving Candido of his crewcut. Instead, all it managed to accomplish is teach fans never to trust SMW when they promoted a stipulation match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz25 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I've enjoyed reading the SMW comments throughout this thread. Though, I haven't watched the promotion in years, I must say that I'm with Cornette on his handling of the Bullet during the Vol Slam. I think he knew all along, that at this period, Armstrong wasn't going anywhere, but Brian Lee most likely would. Unfortunately for Lee, that really never happened. It appeared to me, that Cornette was building up a Babyface for the future and forever with Armstrong. I'm sure that was one of his plans from day one. Though, we know the story doesn't end with a happy ending, the Armstrong/Cornette feud drew some good houses and made some entertaining TV for years. I think "years" being the keyword. Armstrong was probably not a whole lot of cash per shot and I have no question that from 93-95 the Bullet was a great investment. As for Lee, I realize he was made to look like a complete pushover in the tournament, but I would like to think that Cornette thought he could get him over by beating heels clean on the road with no TV cameras around to see. But, we also have to remember that tag team wrestling was going to headline most SMW shows anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 See, I could buy that logic if they weren't relying on Lee to headline the shows for the next several months. But remember, this was before the Rock 'n' Roll had joined the territory (Ricky Morton was still working with WCW through July) and the Fantastics weren't working all of the shows because of Japanese commitments (thus, why the Bodies beat the Rich Cousins at the Volunteer Slam when they were supposed to wrestle the finals of the tag team tournament against the Fantastics). So Brian Lee was made to look like a bag of shit, and was then expected to headline all of the towns against Dirty White Boy with people taking him seriously. Brian Lee probably isn't the guy you want to headline with in the first place, but if you do, you want to make sure you nail the presentation, and Cornette didn't do that. I think Brian Lee would have failed on top anyway, because he wasn't really that good at anything (though admittedly, I liked him a lot more as top heel with Tammy), but it's like they doubled down on him failing on top by making sure nobody would take him seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz25 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 See, I could buy that logic if they weren't relying on Lee to headline the shows for the next several months. But remember, this was before the Rock 'n' Roll had joined the territory (Ricky Morton was still working with WCW through July) and the Fantastics weren't working all of the shows because of Japanese commitments (thus, why the Bodies beat the Rich Cousins at the Volunteer Slam when they were supposed to wrestle the finals of the tag team tournament against the Fantastics). So Brian Lee was made to look like a bag of shit, and was then expected to headline all of the towns against Dirty White Boy with people taking him seriously. Brian Lee probably isn't the guy you want to headline with in the first place, but if you do, you want to make sure you nail the presentation, and Cornette didn't do that. I think Brian Lee would have failed on top anyway, because he wasn't really that good at anything (though admittedly, I liked him a lot more as top heel with Tammy), but it's like they doubled down on him failing on top by making sure nobody would take him seriously. Certainly hard to argue your points, they are all completely valid. But, looking at it from a complete business standpoint. I think we, as fans 20 years later, are looking at it from a microscope as opposed to Cornette who was probably hoping that he could get some crowds in certain buildings monthly, so that he could build up to some big shows that would feature himself, Armstrong, RnR and the Bodies. Also, and I probably should research before typing this, were the shows during the summer months of 92 sold shows (fund raisers)? Or were they running their Morristown, Johnson City, Knoxville circuit that early in the game? It's an interesting topic to look back on. To sum up my thoughts: I think Cornette's business plan was to survive most of the year and profit during the themed tours/shows (Vol Slam, Fire on the Mountain, Thanksgiving Thunder, Christmas Chaos). I'm sure most of focus from the booking was his core group that he knew would be there and were "guaranteed" to draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Looking at the results, they were running a circuit between the regular TN towns and the regular WV towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz25 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Looking at the results, they were running a circuit between the regular TN towns and the regular WV towns. Well, it looks like my ideas have all been shot to hell. It looks as though Corny just booked Lee to be a "bag of shit" (great line, btw.) I have no more defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 September of 1994 just isn't very good at all. I almost wrote "goof", and that's because the goofy stuff with Candido, Tammy & Boo Bradley is the only thing I enjoy at this point (and that's despite basically feuding with Lance Storm...). The Gangstas are all about New Jack cutting racist promos, because in the ring they just don't deliver shit. And I'm tired of Ricky Morton getting beat up at this point. The other thing I'm really, and I mean really getting tired of is Cornette vs Bob Armstrong. That was fun for a while, but at this point this is FF material for me, it has overstayed its welcome to a ridiculous degree. Plus the main-event scene is cluttered with Killer Kyle (seriously ?) and Bruiser Bedlam, who sucks even worse. A huge waste of DWB and Smothers. Yep, the promotion seems really tired at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Call me crazy but I thought The Gangstas were a perfectly serviceable team. Great? God no. Good? I don't think that's a major stretch. They certainly could work solid control segments and had more tools than they did in ECW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Thus far they are quite boring on control. Not bad, but rather really green. And no intensity, which really negates the gimmick. And they had way more tools in ECW. Actual tools I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 30, 2012 Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 Sometime good announcing can save a boring match. Jim Ross just did it with a very nondescript DWB vs Bruiser Bedlam strap match, dropping references left and right, about the Bruiser, about old-school Ron Wright. The two that got me by surprise are a Rey Mysterio Jr. reference (in 1994 ? Really ? Damn !) and a pretty great "My boy !", Barnett style, dropped after a very deliberate "James E. Cornette" (the James E. comes from Barnett's name). And no college sport references at all. I'm glad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 30, 2012 Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 SMW got much better as the year was closing off, with the Rock'n'Roll/Jim Cornette/Gangsta feud, Cactus Jack (and Brian Lee in the background) trying to look after Boo Bradley resulting in a brutal feud with Candido & Fytch, and the arrival of Buddy Landell which is very promising for the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 The beginning of 1995 was pretty good. I wish Lawler would have been seen on TV more than just cutting a few promos on pre-tape. Buddy Landell was more than a welcome addition on the heel side, tremendous worker and promo man. His short match with DWB on TV was really good for what it was. I enjoy the whole Cornette vs Gangstas feud quite a bit, with an awesome backstage brawl that goes outside the building and what seems to be a pretty good match with the Bodies on 01/28. The promos were akward though, with too much race baiting. The evolution of Cornette turning into a tweener and aligning himself with the Rock'nRoll and Bob Armstrong just because of the circumstances was cool and really smoothly done, although it does give the impression that it's everybody against the black guys... There's something that deeply doesn't work about that whole Gangstas stuff, but it's enjoyable nonetheless. On the flip side, I enjoyed Candido vs Boo at first when Cactus was involved, but now that it turned into cat squashing and dog food stip, I don't care anymore. They should have used the fact Candido was the NWA champion more instead of setling him in a "comedic" feud with Boo. Eddie Gilbert showing up is a nice surprise, although I'm definitly not a big fan of his in-ring work. Of course it's basically a way to get Unabomb into the mix, and thus far it's been ugly. Veteran Kane is boring and not-good enough, green Kane is just terrible. I know that soon Al Snow will take Gilbert's place, I'm curious to see his work here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Was there a reason to rob the people from the DWB vs Jerry Lawler and vs Buddy Landell that had been built for weeks on TV on SUnday Bloody Sunday 1995 ? The end result was rather lame (I won't spoil it for whoever doens't want to know what actually happened). So, in other news, Candido is out, Billy Black is in. I really liked Billy Black in Korakuen Hall in 1990 or so, I'm not sure about him in SMW yet. Candido had a nice stint there, the promotion will miss him. Eddie Gilbert is out, and actually is dead at this point (hasn't been mentionned on TV while it was in ECW, but Eddie was a much bigger part of ECW so it's understandable) and Al Snow is in. Snow looks good in the ring thus far, and cuts good promos too. To damn bad he's settled with a green Glen Jacobs playing Unabomb, which really was a proto-Kane without the mask or the outfit. You see Cornette is trying to make him his own Undertaker/Sid, but Jacobs just doesn't have much charisma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 A few quick thoughts as I am finished with SMW. Overall I'm glad I watched it as the product had been really fun at times. My main criticism of the promotion would be the lack of competitive matches on TC after a point (especially the last year), as the old-school format can get a bit frustrating after a while, always building to non televised shows. I didn't get to see a lot of big shows in full, as I had some handhelds that I just dind't bother to watch (I don't watch handhelds anymore at this point, don't have the patience to unless the footage is really quality), so that plays into it too, but still. It's an incredible promotion in term of promos, the number of legit great promos is just ridiculous. Cornette's booking strong point is an effort on details and overall trying to make sense. The weak point is an overreliance on gimmick and stipulation matches. I understand he was booking a regional territory with a limited amount of workers and turn-over of talent, and you have to give the audience something special to keep them interested, but still it really felt exagerated after a while. Also, as much as I enjoyed Bob Armstrong's promos, the feud between him and Cornette overstayed its welcome after the great Wargames match, and it really was hard to keep things interesting. Third criticism of his booking was the way he overbooked himslef. I love Corny, but by 1995 you ended up with three different Cornette's promo on the same TV shows sometime. It wasn't fresh anymore. Cornette as a booker had its strong points, but he doesn't strike me as a particulary great creative booker. He had trouble keeping his lead babyfaces strong too. As a performer, Cornette's stock rised quite a bit with me, he surprised me as a pure worker in the ring, being quite adept, more than I thought he would. And as much as I knew he was great on the mic, some of his best mic work here is absolutely killer. Guys whose stock has risen a lot are Tracey Smothers, Dirty White Boy and Ricky Morton. White Boy in particular, who I wasn't overly familiar with except a few tag matches from the 80's and the awful WWF stint. Terrific brawler, terrific promo, great heel, superb face. Smothers I already liked a lot, but his best work is just right there. Being the babyface anchor to a regional promotion was the right spot for him, super worker who could do workrate matches, bloody brawl, gimmick matches (the ladder match with Candido is arguably better than the Shawn matches from the same era). Improved quite a bit on promos, sometime cutting really strong ones, other time being a bit shaky, but overall quite good. Ricky Morton was just amazing to watch as he carried angles after angles on his back, cutting excellent promos whatever the situation, and still being really strong in the ring. For someone who was passed his prime and supposedly "dated", he showed me that he was still a great performer up to 1995, at least anyway. I never knew he was such a great angle guy. The Gangstas didn't do much for me. New Jack did cut some great awkward promos, but th whole Gangsta angle just didn't work for me and was conterproductive. As far as work goes, they were just blah. New Jack could do a little bit of stuff in the ring, while Mustafa was useless, and even the Rock'n Roll coudn't carry them to really good matches. Nope. Thumbs down. Al Snow was better here than anywhere else, and the rest of his career seems even more a waste now. Candido was as fun as ever, his stock didn't rise with me as he was already a big favourite of mine. Watching Tammy improve week to week was very cool. Boo Bradley was as useless here as in ECW. Paul Orndorff was the best wrestler of the company in 1992, really enjoyed his work and was surprised by how hard the guy was still pushing himslef and others. Buddy Landell came in too late, but was an amazing promo man especially as a babyface. Loved Bob Armstrong promos at first, but in the ring he didn't bring anything to the table, so after a while I was tired of having him being basically the number one babyface in the company. The best even Commissioner character though, before it became a cliché. Ron Wright was awesome in his role of devious hypocrite old man piece of trash begging for pity. Loved the whole Ron Wright in a wheel-chair period. The Armstrong boys, especially Scott, didn't impress me that much, to the point I now think the talking point of them being underrated and underused is false. They were decent to good, but that's it. The Heavenly Bodies were clearly the heel anchor to the company, and to me the peak ended with their first departure (which is maybe the best moment in SMW history). I enjoyed the first version more than I thought I would, as I'm not a big Stan Lane fan, but Del Rey brought the team to another level. Truly the last old-school tag team that came into the game, misused in WWF, and their work in SMW was very satisfying, although I must admit they are not close to what the MX were. And they had a terrific music theme to boot. Oh, and I enjoyed Tim Horner a lot. Unironically. What else ?.... I dunno. I'm feeling quite burned out at this point, so I'll let it rest. To me the promotion peaked in 1993 and first half of 1994. It was funny to see how ECW followed the footsteps of SMW in a way, with guys like Brian Lee, Candido, the Gangstas, Tracey Smothers, Boo Bradley, Lance Storm, Al Snow would progressively transfer from one promotion to another (with sometime a transitionnal and usually failed WWF stint between the two). Anyway, it was fun. Must see there are the works of Smothers, DWB, Ricky Morton, Heavenly Bodies and Candido & Tammy, and moreso promo-wise Cornette/Wright/Bullet Bob/Landell. I need a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Here's an awesome video of Ron Wright from 1973 in Knoxville. I thought everyone who'd seen him in SMW would enjoy this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yep, discovered this the other day when I was looking for a Jerry Lawler vs. Tommy Gilbert match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 That is awesome. I don't even think it'd qualify as something spectacular from that era, but its just so refreshing and different from everything going away. You wonder if they'll be anything close to a reset where the formula veers away from a scripted promo in the ring to set up every show, and there are generally simpler and shorter interviews to set up television. My gut says we're in the reality era indefinitely, but perhaps its toned down at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 What really surprised me was how not muscular everyone on the TV show was. Jerry Lawler was really young and had no biceps whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 I've recently found this thread and thought it would be the best place to ask. I recently started on attempting to watch the complete SMW TV run and am up to 'The Master' angle. Does anyone know who the third stalker that attacks Brian Lee is? First one is the Mongolian Mauler, second is the Night Stalker, whilst the third is a fat, almost Samoan looking guy. Anyone have a name for him as I don't recognise him at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 That was Malachi (or Molokai) the Grim Reaper, who also worked indies teaming with Bill Eadie as Demolition Blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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