HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

[blueminister]

I think Lesnar is instructive because he embraced prowres as a last-ditch income source after washing out of MMA and football. Maybe all UFC has added is new road to ascension in the Sport of Kings, and in the future all the old timer DVDs will have them recounting how they were top MMA prospects after college football before they went down to a knee injury and fell in with some carnies at the gym.

[goc]

I think Lesnar is instructive because he embraced prowres as a last-ditch income source after washing out of MMA and football. Maybe all UFC has added is new road to ascension in the Sport of Kings, and in the future all the old timer DVDs will have them recounting how they were top MMA prospects after college football before they went down to a knee injury and fell in with some carnies at the gym.

I wouldn't really call Brock's return a "last-ditch income source" The guy made millions of dollars in his UFC run. He's pretty well set for life and I assume he only went back to WWE because they offered him probably the best contract of anyone ever. Work 3 matches a year, work maybe 10 Raws to build up the PPV matches and make 7+ figures.

[Al]

Of course there's also the issue with MMA that you can only do it as long as you can win. You can be a 40 year old pro wrestler and be protected. No such guarantee for the 40 year old MMA fighter.

[jdw]

The bottom line is that for college wrestlers, who historically have been a HUGE part of wrestling's talent base, the ability to earn a living with MMA is a factor in terms of WWE's struggling developmental system.

Have college wrestlers really been a HUGE part of wrestling's talent base? Researching the issue, I didn't find that to be true. In fact, I think it's notable how few collegiate stars made significant runs in the business.

 

College wrestling hasn't been a huge part of wrestling's talent base for ages. It's not like Vince has worked on recruiting those guys much either. Brock and Angle are exceptions to the rule.

 

I suspect if we go around the indy circuit we'd find the same thing.

 

John

[Slasher]

Wrestlers nowadays seem to be guys who are actual wrestling fans. It seems almost as if wrestling decided that they don't need the uber athletic guys anymore as much as they need the athletic guys who understands at least one function of professional wrestling. No they don't want the uber smark who wrestles but they definitely want a guy who deadlifts 300 pounds and knows who Stone Cold was.

[goc]

The biggest stars ever since the 80s have been fans, or people born into the business. Hogan was recruited into the business but had been a long time fan, and idolized Superstar Billy Graham. Austin & Cena were both fans who didn't come from outside sports. The Rock comes from a wrestling family.

 

I'm not really sure how vital it is to recruit guys from the outside, at least ones who never really watched. Kurt Angle is the exception to the rule. Brock Lesnar didn't like the life style. Bobby Lashley also quit. Jack Swagger is their latest amateur wrestling "project" and he doesn't seem like a guy who really cares about wrestling.

[NintendoLogic]

Actually, Cena wasn't much of a fan growing up. Pro wrestling is something he was recruited into after he couldn't make it as a bodybuilder.

[hammerva]

Actually, Cena wasn't much of a fan growing up. Pro wrestling is something he was recruited into after he couldn't make it as a bodybuilder.

Based on the videos of him as a kid, I have to disagree with that one. He was pretend wrestling with his friends all the time and had fake belts and fake shows. Maybe he didn't want to be a wrestler as his #1 career path like a Shawn Michaels but he definitely grew up as one

[Guest Andrews]

Actually, Cena wasn't much of a fan growing up. Pro wrestling is something he was recruited into after he couldn't make it as a bodybuilder.

Based on the videos of him as a kid, I have to disagree with that one. He was pretend wrestling with his friends all the time and had fake belts and fake shows. Maybe he didn't want to be a wrestler as his #1 career path like a Shawn Michaels but he definitely grew up as one

 

Exactly my thoughts. When he is a talking head on the numerous DVD's, the only time he seems like he is speaking even remotely naturally is when he is speaking about the past events, i.e. Ted Dibiase screwing Hogan out of the belt, etc.

[Slasher]

You also don't get to where Cena is in a HHH world without having a certain passion for the business often found in fandom. Look at Batista. That is a dude who was backed by HHH but quickly showed that he was mostly in it for the money. He never got to the heights Cena or even a guy like Jeff Hardy experienced.

[caley]

Doesn't Cena's dad own an indy fed? Seems like a family that loves wrestling, even if he only bought it in 2007, it's not something he'd buy with an eye to making money, one would think.

[NintendoLogic]

Cena's dad is a huge fan, yes. Cena was a fan for a time as a kid, but he had stopped watching by the time he was a teenager. His main loves were football and bodybuilding, but he wasn't good enough for the former or big enough for the latter. He was brought into the business after being spotted in a gym. I'm not saying he doesn't have passion for the business, but he's not some starry-eyed fan living out a boyhood dream. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, mind you.

[cm funk]

Austin was a scholarship college football player at D1 North Texas. After college he was doing some sort of manual labor job (can't remember exactly what) and would go to matches at the Sportatorium with his friends. Somebody spotted him there and suggested he try wrestling. He wasn't exactly a lifelong fan who dreamed of being a wrestler, he fell into it the way a lot of guys did in the 70's/80's.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Austin was a scholarship college football player at D1 North Texas. After college he was doing some sort of manual labor job (can't remember exactly what) and would go to matches at the Sportatorium with his friends. Somebody spotted him there and suggested he try wrestling. He wasn't exactly a lifelong fan who dreamed of being a wrestler, he fell into it the way a lot of guys did in the 70's/80's.

He drove fork lifts as a dock worker.

[artDDP]

Austin was a scholarship college football player at D1 North Texas. After college he was doing some sort of manual labor job (can't remember exactly what) and would go to matches at the Sportatorium with his friends. Somebody spotted him there and suggested he try wrestling. He wasn't exactly a lifelong fan who dreamed of being a wrestler, he fell into it the way a lot of guys did in the 70's/80's.

Austin would mention being captivated by World Class when he was a kid and having to fight his siblings to watch it each week.

[tomk]

Karma and Sin Cara were both great pick-ups. The way it ended sucked but you absolutely cannot fault them for actually signing them.

Someone want to walk through what made either of them great pick-ups?

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Karma and Sin Cara were both great pick-ups. The way it ended sucked but you absolutely cannot fault them for actually signing them.

Someone want to walk through what made either of them great pick-ups?

 

I can't speak for Kharma, but how was Sin Cara not a great pickup? Meltzer, for example, talks about him as a HOF-worthy draw from Mexico. That makes me think he'd be a natural successor to Rey Mysterio. Kharma was seen as a top female worker, but I don't think she makes sense in the WWE context because almost all the females on the roster suck or look mismatched, which would either make Kharma the dominant dog of the division (and to have opponents to match her would require making the roster in her image, which wasn't going to happen) or would make Kharma lost in the shuffle by being misplaced. That, or Kharma could fight men and squash Zach Ryder two times a month on Raw. I don't think Kharma made much sense as a pick up. But Sin Cara was a guy WWE had to take a chance on in light of Mysterio's body breaking down.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Sin Cara was a transparently bad pick up in hindsight. Being a great draw in CMLL means less than nothing in WWE. Sin Cara had very few logical opponents from the jump, stylistically was a totally different worker than Rey (which tomk has talked about before) and was incapable (and allegedly unwilling) of delivering promos to get himself over. The mask, lighting, et got him over with kids for a while, but I don't think it's surprising things turned out as they did.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I think Sin Cara was a transparently bad pick up in hindsight. Being a great draw in CMLL means less than nothing in WWE. Sin Cara had very few logical opponents from the jump, stylistically was a totally different worker than Rey (which tomk has talked about before) and was incapable (and allegedly unwilling) of delivering promos to get himself over. The mask, lighting, et got him over with kids for a while, but I don't think it's surprising things turned out as they did.

But is that true in itself or by design? It has often been argued by types like Matysik and Meltzer that if you can get over in one territory, then you can get over in any territory. I think that argument is obviously inductive to the point of ridiculous. I'd say if you can get over in at least two territories of significantly different expectations, then you can probably get over in almost any territory. So do you think Sin Cara was at all set up to fail like practically any act in WWE who haven't been chosen by the big wigs to be their top guy?

 

On that note, the blue lighting during Sin Cara's matches is really dumb.

[Johnny Sorrow]

It seemed to me that Sin Cara's biggest problem was being injury prone. As soon as he'd gain some momentum he'd get injured (or "wellnessed") and it'd halt everything.

 

I thought Kharma was going to be awesome. They totally implied that the point was she was going to murderalize all the Barbie Dolls, but then what went down went down and that was basically it.

[Jimmy Redman]

I dont think "he was set up to fail" is a case you can convincingly make for Sin Cara.

 

He was brought in as Hunter's first big signing, they had a press conference and hype coming in, he got to bypass development which NOBODY gets to do, and was presented as a special attraction with his own big entrance, unique lighting, and showcase matches that were heavily hyped. His pushes were derailed by mainly his injuries/Wellness Violation, and if anything else also his reported attitude and unwillingness to learn English.

 

None of these things really betray a lack of willingness on WWE's part. They tried. It just didnt work out.

[WingedEagle]

It was clear at the time, not only in hindsight, that skipping developmental was a big mistake for him. Del Rio went through it and he was more well versed in different styles and spoke the language. They threw him out there with a neat gimmick and entrance but without the ability to work in a style that meshed with or to communicate with all but a couple guys on the roster.

 

Combine that with either an unwillingness to adapt or a failure to provide any direction and you've got a situation that will undoubtedly fail to meet expectations.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Sin Cara was a transparently bad pick up in hindsight. Being a great draw in CMLL means less than nothing in WWE. Sin Cara had very few logical opponents from the jump, stylistically was a totally different worker than Rey (which tomk has talked about before) and was incapable (and allegedly unwilling) of delivering promos to get himself over. The mask, lighting, et got him over with kids for a while, but I don't think it's surprising things turned out as they did.

But is that true in itself or by design? It has often been argued by types like Matysik and Meltzer that if you can get over in one territory, then you can get over in any territory. I think that argument is obviously inductive to the point of ridiculous. I'd say if you can get over in at least two territories of significantly different expectations, then you can probably get over in almost any territory. So do you think Sin Cara was at all set up to fail like practically any act in WWE who haven't been chosen by the big wigs to be their top guy?

 

On that note, the blue lighting during Sin Cara's matches is really dumb.

 

The territories haven't been around in almost thirty years. Matysik himself has scoffed at the notion of Mexicans and Japanese wrestlers getting over in the States, which tells you a lot about Larry and wrestling promoters who came out of that era.

 

I don't see how you can argue Cara was set up to fail. He was presented as a pretty big deal, got a unique special entrance/aesthetic for his matches, the WWE allegedly was going to the trouble to hire guys specifically to work with him when they realized he was awful against the vast majority of the active roster, et.

[KrisZ]

His attitude killed him more than just about anything else because he came in with this total entitled attitude thinking he was the biggest star in business which he was in Mexico but still this isn't like Mil Mascaras in the 70's calling his own shots this is current WWE where they want you to fit their system not the other way around. Between that and his injuries his time there has been a flop.

 

They were ready to make Kharma a big deal but her situation killed that dead.

[cm funk]

Kharma got over instantly, I don't see how anyone can argue signing her was a bad idea.

 

Cara's work within the confines of the WWE style was starting to improve IMO during his time teaming with Mysterio, but the guy just can't seem to stay healthy. There's nothing inherently bad or wrong about WWE signing one of the biggest stars/draws in Mexico, a market they did very well in at times over the past decade. Haven't seen recent #'s but I know for a time they had the highest rated wrestling in the country as well as drawing big houses on their annual tour. I get the sense that business there has declined quite a bit with the devaluation of the peso, drug violence, AAA/CMLL improving, as well as Mysterio slowing down.

 

The struggles Cara would eventually have were predicted by practically everyone before he started on tv, and he compounded them with attitude/stubborness, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth taking a shot with him. He did get over, and he did sell masks, but with injuries/wellness he's never been able to build momentum.

 

What surprises me is that they don't seem to be looking at more Mexican wrestlers, guys who are bigger, work a style more conducive to WWE, are willing to learn or already speak English etc. etc. With AAA looking to break into the US market you'd think they'd try and poach a few key guys just to hurt them