shawmic Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 How much time is dedicated to his heel run on Raw from 02-04? And if time is dedicated, how is it spun? Not much at all. It goes from him winning the title from Jericho to resurrecting Flair's career to him and Flair seeing something in Orton & Batista. No mention of the actual heel turn with Shawn, feuds with Kane, Booker, Goldberg, etc. Now that I think about it the only actual feuds they cover are Rock & Orton. Which reminds me of another great line - Rock and HHH were having such amazing matches in 1998 that the main eventers at the time had to up their game to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 How much time is dedicated to his heel run on Raw from 02-04? And if time is dedicated, how is it spun? Not much at all. It goes from him winning the title from Jericho to resurrecting Flair's career to him and Flair seeing something in Orton & Batista. No mention of the actual heel turn with Shawn, feuds with Kane, Booker, Goldberg, etc. Now that I think about it the only actual feuds they cover are Rock & Orton. Which reminds me of another great line - Rock and HHH were having such amazing matches in 1998 that the main eventers at the time had to up their game to keep up. And he also "passed the torch" to John Cena at WrestleMania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 Which reminds me of another great line - Rock and HHH were having such amazing matches in 1998 that the main eventers at the time had to up their game to keep up.Well, Summerslam that year kinds of bears that out a bit. The hype for Austin/ Taker was awesome. and the match was great, but Rock/ HHH ladder match was a bit of a show stealer. And the crowd was exploding at the finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 - He claims Eric Bischoff offered him a 2-year deal for $52k a year and he told Bischoff he would only accept one year for $52k and after that year he'll either not be worth it or be worth more and Bischoff agreed. Given what we know about Bischoff's negotiation style from Jericho's book and the entire contractual giveaway bonanza that was WCW under his watch I have no problem believing this. Bischoff really didn't get fiduciary responsibility and considered the Turner coffers something to impress people with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 - He talks about how he was promised the title at SummerSlam 99 months in advance, not even realizing how bad that comes across. They also say that Austin wanted to lose to Foley by the time the show came around and he got to win it the next day but they don't actually go into why Austin didn't want to lose to him and the drama it caused at the time. I'm guessing that Trip didn't analyze how badly his first title reign bombed, how the took the belt off him, and how he didn't start getting top level heat until the murderers row of Vince (with Steph angle), Mick and then Rock to put him over. My recollection as well is that Austin was dealing with injury issues at the time which was central to getting the belt off him at the time: he was having a tough time working a full schedule of matches. He only worked one match between Summer Slam (08/22/99) and coming back for the 10/11/99 Raw and 10/17/99 No Mercy. He was done before Survivor Series, where if he wasn't 100% healthy he would have won the title back since it ended up with Show. Instead, he was such a mess that he went out on the shelf and didn't come back until 2000's No Mercy. Trip got the belt because they needed to give Austin a rest. Couldn't quite go back to Rock since he was the whole first half of the year and they turned him face after Backlash (or kinda-sorta at Backlash and more clearly the next night). They thought Austin would be back, which was what they were trying to do at No Mercy and Survivors... but he was too much of a mess. Of course it's a nicer story for Trip to point out Austin was a dick that the reality that Trip was a throwaway temp champ who bombed to the point that even with Austin out, Vince panicked and took the belt off him. It wasn't until *after* the feud with Vince and hooking up with Steph (who we have to admit was an excellent heel early on in that role that the fans just HATED) that Trip got the belt back. Yep... Trip revisions... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Which reminds me of another great line - Rock and HHH were having such amazing matches in 1998 that the main eventers at the time had to up their game to keep up. For fucks sakes. Fully Loaded 98 - Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - July 26, 1998 WWF IC Champion The Rock 1-1 Triple H in 2/3 match WWF World Champion Steve Austin & The Undertaker defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Kane & Mankind (w/ Paul Bearer) to win the titles Summer Slam 98 - New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 30, 1998 Triple H (w/ Chyna) defeated WWF IC Champion the Rock (w/ Mark Henry) in a ladder match to win the title WWF World Champion Steve Austin pinned the Undertaker So basically a shot at Austin, Taker, Mick and Kane. Weeeeeeeeeeeee~! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's one of those phrases that people say without thinking about, because even if you accept the premise that Hunter was stealing the show on the undercard (bear with me), can he or anyone else explain how that made the main eventers "step up their game"? Did they? Did main events suddenly get noticeably better after the summer of 1998? And if they did, shouldn't the fact that Rock moved from the undercard to main event matches at the same time mean it was Rock making the difference there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 The current programs with The Rhodes Family and Bryan have been carefully engineered so HHH and Steph need not look foolish in any final outcome. It's kind of brilliant in the sense that there's been more attention paid to avoiding any heel humiliation for them than there has been in the booking of anyone since around 2008. WWE's attention can be channeled, it's just always in the wrong place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I thought Trips got hurt almost immediately after that ladder match and essentially vacated the belt pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I think the only memory I have of that HHH IC title reign was him doing an episode of the Drew Carey Show with the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's one of those phrases that people say without thinking about to put themselves over. Corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I actually think the main events started going downhill at that point. The Foley/Rock stuff wasn't good inring wise as the Rock wasn't quite ready in the main event slot yet. You had the good Austin/Rock main event at Mania and they went back to Austin/Taker. Except the Taker's hip problems really drug the quality of his work down and Austin was starting to struggle a bit too. HHH didn't help matters as he wasn't very good in 1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Rock/Austin at WM15 was terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Was it? I haven't seen it in a long time and the rest of that show was so shitty I must have remembered it incorrectly. Okay, point still stands. Main events quickly went downhill after Summerslam 1998. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I like Rock-Austin at both 15 and 17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I remember liking it but I sat through a show of really shitty wrestling before I got to it. So I might have overrated it at the time. I haven't seen that match since XV aired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Which reminds me of another great line - Rock and HHH were having such amazing matches in 1998 that the main eventers at the time had to up their game to keep up. For fucks sakes. Fully Loaded 98 - Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - July 26, 1998 WWF IC Champion The Rock 1-1 Triple H in 2/3 match WWF World Champion Steve Austin & The Undertaker defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Kane & Mankind (w/ Paul Bearer) to win the titles Summer Slam 98 - New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 30, 1998 Triple H (w/ Chyna) defeated WWF IC Champion the Rock (w/ Mark Henry) in a ladder match to win the title WWF World Champion Steve Austin pinned the Undertaker So basically a shot at Austin, Taker, Mick and Kane. Weeeeeeeeeeeee~! Even funnier when you think how poor of a match that 2/3 falls was (in comparison with the admitedly excellent 60 mn Iron Man match they'd have in 2000, thanks to Rock improving vastly and creative booking mostly) and how awkward that ladder match was, with tons of sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow climbs up the thing with a ridiculous oversell of the damage done that apparently only hampered their ability to climb up steps since they were moving fine on the flat ring. Yeah, Rock was beginning to recieve supertar reactions, and DX was very over (and really, the NOA & X-Pac coming back from WCW really beneficiated HHH who wasn't over a bit as Shawn's little buddy), but to say it made the main eventer step up their game is plain ridiculous stuff. What killed the main events in the months to follow SummerSlam was the überRussoification of the product with ridiculous stipuations, 2 on 1 matches and swerves. Hunter was not seen as a credible main event player before he and Stephy feuded against Cactus who put them over huge. 4 years of a nearly non-stop push, kissing up to Shawn's ass and marrying the boss' daughter. Indeed, stuff of what legends are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 How much credit should Chyna get for even how over Hunter was in 97-98? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 How much credit should Chyna get for even how over Hunter was in 97-98? Good question. I think she played a part as a novelty act in 1997, then was effectively more over in her role than HHH was during the early DX days. I don't think Huter with Mr. Hughes would have garnered the same reactions. Huge amazonian Chyna brutalizing petite Marlena was a big part of HHH vs Goldust, then HHH had his first feud with Foley when he was getting over strong as a babyface after the Ross interviews. By then Chyna was established, the nolvelty was wearing of but I'd say she still got HHH more heat than he would have got on his own. Hell, HHH cracking jokes behind Shawn in late 1997 got crickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Even in the expanded DX, I always thought he was the least essentially and least over member of the group. Billy Gunn might have been less over than him but that's a big if to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwebb Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Given what we know about Bischoff's negotiation style from Jericho's book and the entire contractual giveaway bonanza that was WCW under his watch I have no problem believing this. Bischoff really didn't get fiduciary responsibility and considered the Turner coffers something to impress people with. I love what Bob Holly said during one of his shoots or interviews. When trying to gauge if WCW had any interest he didn't even have to tell him how much the WWF was offering. Bischoff just told him I'll pay you double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 As Loss mentioned in the 97 yearbook I thought Hunter showed nice aggression in the 97 feud with Foley. He looked like he belonged in the ring with him. I don't think it got him hugely over or anything but it was a minor step. Even in the original DX stuff they had him hanging around the top guys so you knew they desperately wanted to push him to the top one day. Just took nearly two and a half years till it finally worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 btw anyone on the net in 1998 will know that "are the new Age Outlaws over or was it just the entrance and sing along that were" was a topic that came up at every single wrestling site and board at the time. Even Herb Kunze would not stop talking about it (he claimed they weren't) Sean Shannon was involved in that one as well. Good times. and Chyna interfering in all the matches and never having to bump for the babyface became really annoying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 She couldn't bump was part of the problem I think. I fucking hated her King of the Ring year where they were hyping her finisher as the low blow. God, I hated that year. I think the NAO were over, Road Dogg at least was. Gunn also had the crowds behind him when he was feuding with Shamrock in early 99. X-Pac was obviously leaps and bounds more over than any other member of the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 The problem is those days is that being over often meant having a catchphrase people liked to chant along with. The NOA got tremendous reactions during their intros, but the matches usualy got zero heat. The Attitude crowds didn't care about wrestling nor most of the characters. They cared about the catchphrases, the puppies, retarded signature spots (the worst of all being the WORM) and people being put through tables. Oh, and be seen on TV with their signs, of course. Very few workers on the undercard really were "over" in the sense that the audience cared for them like in the 80's. That's also why the Attitude era was such a horrible product, no matter how much money it made. Things only got better once Russo left and the WCW crew and Angle got on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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