Rey Mysterio

[El-P]

I don't see how Kudo failed to deliver either. The Kong match is amazing. Plus Kudo at this time hadn't reached her peak yet as a worker. To me she peaked in 1996. Kudo is a massive overachiever considering where she came from (good looking girl not good enough to make it into the Zenjo camp and recruited by FMW to be their idol style wrestler). Great great worker.

[JerryvonKramer]

It would be fun to do a list these days but I think 2006 was perfecting timing. There was still an enthusiasm for tape watching back then and a type of innocence I'm not sure could be replicated. Innocence is not really the word I'm looking for, but a modern list would be more cynical and esoteric.

I don't agree. How can being more informed be worse for making a list? How many of the guys who voted for say, Dory Jr., in 2006 had actually watched a load of Dory matches? Seems to me that now everyone has greater exposure to a greater number of workers. Everyone is in a better position to make a real call.

[Loss]

I still don't think we're in an informed enough position, to be honest. We're still in the stage where people are discovering and watching old stuff that hasn't really been seen or discussed much. When you can get a few dozen people who are equally familiar with Continental, PWFG, Joshi, lucha libre, European wrestling, early 90s indies, Lou Thesz matches, all the 70s AJ & NJ Classics and so on, then we're ready. I think if we did one now, it would end up looking like the 2006 one -- acting more as a time capsule of what online sentiment was in 2012 than a definitive list that can withstand the test of time.

 

I would want a yearbook for every single year of wrestling from 1980-present, along with something compiled similarly for the 70s and before where everyone voting has waded through all of that before trying it again.

 

In other words, we're nowhere close to ready.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ha ha, let's pencil in 2026 for the next poll then

[Dylan Waco]

There will never be a time when we are completely ready.

 

Half the people on this forum don't really watch the modern product. By the time the 80s/90s are done it will be time to re-explore the 00's and possibly even part of the 10's (that felt strange to type) even for those of us who have been watching it.

 

This is not to say that I would advocate that now is the BEST time to do re-do this. I would prefer it be done after the 90's yearbooks are complete and after 80's sets are done for the AWA and Lucha. Portland would be ideal too, but at least the Buddy Rose Set exists. And again I would like to see a lot more discussion of European candidates.

 

Honestly if we were to run this poll again I would want to make a lot of changes. I personally would like to see it open to everyone, but with a minimum participation requirement of some sort so that we don't just have people running in and dropping list based on twenty year old memories, without contributing to any of the discussion, debate, footage, et.

 

2006 SC was the perfect storm for a lot of reasons for at initial list, but it was a list with a lot of voters voting entirely based on memories/rep and very little re-examination of opinions/"received wisdom of wrestling Gods."

[El-P]

2006 SC was the perfect storm for a lot of reasons for at initial list, but it was a list with a lot of voters voting entirely based on memories/rep and very little re-examination of opinions/"received wisdom of wrestling Gods."

Not exactly true. I remember tons of matches being uploaded during this time, fort months, and matches being talked bout. It was because of this poll that I basically catch up the missing years of WWF peak (00 & 01), and most every big match from the following years. For instance I changed my mind about The Rock thanks to this poll, as I couldn't stand his matches back in 98/99.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well if people were interested in trying to do something like this again in the near future, I'd be an enthusiastic supporter, albeit one with no real presence outside this place.

[Dylan Waco]

2006 SC was the perfect storm for a lot of reasons for at initial list, but it was a list with a lot of voters voting entirely based on memories/rep and very little re-examination of opinions/"received wisdom of wrestling Gods."

Not exactly true. I remember tons of matches being uploaded during this time, fort months, and matches being talked bout. It was because of this poll that I basically catch up the missing years of WWF peak (00 & 01), and most every big match from the following years. For instance I changed my mind about The Rock thanks to this poll, as I couldn't stand his matches back in 98/99.

 

Bolded words

[El-P]

So that's your knew habit ? Mmmkay.

Yes, I know, I can read. I don't think *a lot* went strictly by memories, there was shitload of match uploaded, shitload of discussions for months. Some voters surely did it. See, I can bold words too.

[ohtani's jacket]

It would be fun to do a list these days but I think 2006 was perfecting timing. There was still an enthusiasm for tape watching back then and a type of innocence I'm not sure could be replicated. Innocence is not really the word I'm looking for, but a modern list would be more cynical and esoteric.

I don't agree. How can being more informed be worse for making a list? How many of the guys who voted for say, Dory Jr., in 2006 had actually watched a load of Dory matches? Seems to me that now everyone has greater exposure to a greater number of workers. Everyone is in a better position to make a real call.

 

If I were to make a list today I would put all my new discoveries ahead of the consensus picks because the consensus picks are boring as shit to me. For most of the workers in the top 25 I never want to see another one of their matches in my life. There's just no way to be impartial about it. It's better left as a time capsule of that period of fandom.

[El-P]

If I were to make a list today I would put all my new discoveries ahead of the consensus picks because the consensus picks are boring as shit to me. For most of the workers in the top 25 I never want to see another one of their matches in my life. There's just no way to be impartial about it. It's better left as a time capsule of that period of fandom.

That's what I understood about what you said, and previous statements that you were bored with such and such wrestlers you've seen too much of, as great as they may be. Every poll would be a time capsule of a period anyway. If we did a poll today, Jerry Lawler and Yoshiaki Fujiwara would probably be high as hell. In ten years, maybe not anymore, who knows.

[goc]

The thing that jumped out the most at me over that Top 100 poll is Ted DiBiase being ranked above Randy Savage, with one person even voting DiBiase #1. I like Ted and all, and I guess you could make an argument for him being better than Savage, although I doubt you could sway me. But best of all time?

[Loss]

That was Scott Williams, who turned in a ballot without participating in any discussions. I put him in the same category as other 80s hardcores like Jeff Bowdren and John McAdam -- they made up their mind about who they like decades ago and see no reason to think about it anymore. DiBiase was a huge hardcore favorite at the time. I'd imagine a similar poll done in the 1980s would have DiBiase in the top ten, maybe even top five.

[JerryvonKramer]

The thing that jumped out the most at me over that Top 100 poll is Ted DiBiase being ranked above Randy Savage, with one person even voting DiBiase #1. I like Ted and all, and I guess you could make an argument for him being better than Savage, although I doubt you could sway me. But best of all time?

I'd put DiBiase top 10 (but not above Savage). There aren't too many guys who I'd rate as better all-round performers than him. He's a guy who in my view was at least 8/10 in every category. Great technician, great brawler, great talker, great charisma, great heel. People will argue that "the matches aren't there", but the MidSouth set dispels that and his best WWF stuff is underrated.

 

I think Ted is a guy who is not the BEST in any given category but is great across the board -- a bit like Arn Anderson (although Arn is a better promo and had better psychology - I'd rank Arn above Ted, but both of them top 10).

 

I honestly don't think that there are that many "total package" contenders. People like Benoit or Malenko with no promo skills wouldn't be getting anywhere near my top 50 probably.

 

And Japanese guys -- who I'd cut some slack on the promo front -- at least have to show CHARISMA and ability to work with the crowd.

[El-P]

And Japanese guys -- who I'd cut some slack on the promo front -- at least have to show CHARISMA and ability to work with the crowd.

Judging Japanese guys by american standarts would make no sense at all. Besides, tons of japanese guys have great charisma and probably great promo skills. I mean, I don't understand what Onita says, but it translates nonetheless. Ditto Aja Kong or Akira Hokuto.

[JerryvonKramer]

And Japanese guys -- who I'd cut some slack on the promo front -- at least have to show CHARISMA and ability to work with the crowd.

Judging Japanese guys by american standarts would make no sense at all. Besides, tons of japanese guys have great charisma and probably great promo skills. I mean, I don't understand what Onita says, but it translates nonetheless. Ditto Aja Kong or Akira Hokuto.

 

Well exactly, we can't know how good they are at promos so that category gets an "n/a" from me.

 

But I don't care which standards you're using charisma and working the crowd are important. After working through the All Japan set my conclusion is that crowd dynamics are EASILY as important in Japan as they are in the US. Crowd reaction is still crowd reaction. Riki Choshu clearly has more charisma than someone like Kuniaki Kobayashi. Jumbo is obviously better at working the crowd than someone like Dory Funk Jr. It's not rocket science.

 

I don't think that those things are "American standards".

[Loss]

Charisma is a good universal criterion. Depending on where you wrestle, you're expected to display that charisma in different ways. In the U.S., there is obviously a bigger focus on showing it verbally. When comparing wrestlers internationally, I think you have to find the things wrestlers are expected to do across all settings and compare them based on that.

 

But yeah, for interview delivery, there are people like Choshu and Hokuto that rival just about anyone from the U.S.

[El-P]

But I don't care which standards you're using charisma and working the crowd are important. After working through the All Japan set my conclusion is that crowd dynamics are EASILY as important in Japan as they are in the US. Crowd reaction is still crowd reaction. Riki Choshu clearly has more charisma than someone like Kuniaki Kobayashi. Jumbo is obviously better at working the crowd than someone like Dory Funk Jr. It's not rocket science.

Of course. But you always have to take in account that the settings and cultures are different, and although sometimes it's obvious that X wrestler has shitload of charisma (Choshu, Hash, Muto, Chiggy, Onita, Kobashi, Toyota, Hokuto, Aja), we must not forget that our natural inclination is to look out for the things we are the most familiar with. Some aspect of puroresu I'm sure appeals to japanese people in ways we don't exactly understand sometime. Same thing for lucha (which in ways is even more alien than puroresu if you except the shoot-style subgenre). That's all what I meant.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah I do agree with that. I mean I can't get into Lucha AT ALL, so there's obviously something being lost in translation.

 

There were quite a few times on the AJPW set when the crowd were laughing their asses off at something and I didn't quite understand why. I'm sure there's quite a lot of nuances being missed simply because we don't understand the commentary and aren't getting the promos.

[El-P]

FWIW, I enjoyed american wrestling more once I got "fluent" in English enough to understand the promos without having to rely on subtitles or translations.

[FLIK]

Sucks the archives got lost for all the discussion leading up to the SC poll. Similar to the year book section on this board, all 400 something ppl that recieved votes had their own pimping threads and it lasted for several months before the actual vote took place.

 

Kudo failed to deliver in her interpromotional matches and it was those shows which fueled most tape watching back then.

Which Kudo matches were disappointing? I loved her WWWA title match challenging Kong. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious which ones.

 

The first Kudo/Combat vs Toyota/Yamada match they shit the bed, The 1st & 3rd Kandori matches didn't reach the lvl they could have but I enjoyed them. Besides that I can't think of many other interpromotional matches she had that were disapointing. Not that they were all blow away great or anything but those that weren't were matches I wouldn't think most would have gone in with high hopes for anyways and a lot of the time she'd be in matches that exceded exspectations like the really underated Kudo & Yukie Nabeno vs Yamada & Ito tag.

 

When across from a top name that looked good on paper it usually lived up to exspectations. The Aja match, the tag vs Hokuto & Bull, vs Chigusa, the feud vs OZ, the 2nd Kandori match, etc...

[Loss]

Split off the women in wrestling talk

[El-P]

Oups.

[NintendoLogic]

Charisma is definitely something that transcends language barriers. Kobashi is actually a notoriously bad interview, but his charisma is off the charts.

[Al]

Charisma is definitely something that transcends language barriers. Kobashi is actually a notoriously bad interview, but his charisma is off the charts.

Sounds like Billy Graham.