Rey Mysterio

[Loss]

Yeah I tried to stay away from "home runs." The point as I see it wasn't to rattle off a "top ten" or even a "top five" but just to point to a variety of matches that I thought could be called "good" without any real qualification.

And I appreciate that. So far, I think you've picked two matches to nicely make your case. Sometimes a list of best matches doesn't do that.

[Dylan Waco]

To be fair, Swagger v. Christian is something I would regard as a really great match. But it's from the ECW show that is defunct and I wanted something that really stood out from that "brand."

[ohtani's jacket]

I managed to find that Orton/Mysterio match. It was a good match considering how limited Orton is, but it was spot driven and choreographed and followed along the lines of the typical WWE match patterns. These things are okay if they're executed well, but it's blatantly obvious that they're executing them in terms of following the patterns. This is especially the case with transitions. All WWE matches have the same kind of transitions that are replayed again in slow motion and lead into commercial breaks. That's obviously part of the overall production, but it makes it seem like the matches fit too neatly into the overall package. I think the quality of matches is definitely higher than at any other time in WWE history, but I'd rather watch great matches from the 80s no matter how scare they were than the current Hollywood-ish formula for blockbusters. Of course some of the better 80s stuff was formulaic and staged looking as well, but with simple camera set-ups at an arena and the lack of commentators screeching about angles and the workers' gimmicks it simply feels like professional wrestling, which is always staged looking to some degree. With the WWE everything is so planned and carefully orchestrated and they're all so focused on working the WWE way that it definitely seems homogeneous.

[Dylan Waco]

Supposedly Rey will be out til after Mania next year. One wonders if this could be the surgery that finally "does it."

[MJH]

As big a fan as I am, I kinda hope it is. I found something very unsettling hearing Meltzer on the WON Radio last night talking about it.

[smkelly]

He better get a good farewell celebration.

[Loss]

A Raw Match I liked a lot at the time, Dolph Ziggler v. John Cena from Dec. of last year

 

I liked this too, but it had some problems. Cena gave Ziggler quite a bit in this match. Whether he sold too much for him or not depends on your point of view. If you look at it as the #1 guy against a guy pretty far from the #1 guy, yes, he sold too much for him. If you look at it as a company where the belts still mean everything they should and this was the #1 and #2 guys (World vs IC champ) locking it up, then it was about where it needed to be. One of those matches where I have trouble divorcing context from what happened in the ring, because it does make a difference to me in how "good" the match is. What was weird about this is that while Cena did sell for him an awful lot, there were times when cutoffs would have worked well, like Cena coming back from the half nelson and then showing big time daylight in breaking the hold.

 

On the plus side, this was really high-energy with a hot crowd and they did as much as they really could within the confines of this match to make Dolph seem like a threat. Feels like an early 90s WCW syndie match, which is what I would say about a lot of what I've watched so far.

[smkelly]

High-energy - that is a good description of current WWE TV stuff. It is spunky and rhythmic, but wrestling like All Japan in the 90s, with its layer-upon-layer depth in story telling is what I aim to watch the most. Actually good wrestling without the addition of overly complicated or insulting angles. But when the WWE guys get to shine in a long or even particularly well laid out match, then I can ignore the lack of actual story and enjoy what is happening in the ring.

[Ditch]

So, he got ANOTHER surgery. Is this it, or just another bump in the road?

[JerryvonKramer]

Here are the top one-hundred workers from the Smarkschoice GOAT Poll:

 

1. Jumbo Tsuruta – 4,594 points - 48 votes – 14 #1 votes - 35 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, Smoove Luv B, gordi, Mike Oles, ElPatoume, Ditch, Wolverine, Goodhelmet, wagnerpanther, Owen, Real Man’s man, Theseus, throughsilver, Famous Mortimer # 1

2. Toshiaki Kawada – 4,477 points - 48 votes – 7 #1 votes - 27 top 5 votes -36 top 10 votes - VHB Bozzaholic, Dangerous Dan, roro ur boat, JHM, Rainmaker, Monday Night Jericho, Ray #1

3. Chris Benoit – 4,442 points - 49 votes - 13 top 5 votes - 30 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Wild Pegasus #2

4. Jushin Thunder Liger – 4,388 points - 48 votes – 2 #1 votes - 15 top 5 votes - 34 top 10 votes - VHB Dan T, AoA #1

5. Kenta Kobashi – 4,311 points - 47 votes – 1 #1 vote - 15 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #1

6. Mitsuharu Misawa – 4,255 points - 47 votes – 12 top 5 votes - 28 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, gordi, throughsilver #2

7. Eddie Guerrero – 4,190 points - 49 votes – 3 #1 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, Eivion Thanotos, WOODOO #1

8. Ric Flair – 4,141 points – 48 votes – 8 #1 votes – 13 top 5 votes – 23 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, Shozo the strong, anarchistxx, Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob, Shoe, Loss #1

9. Bret Hart – 3,707 points - 46 votes – 3 #1 votes – 9 top 5 votes – 13 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Slick Rick, Insane Clown #1

10. Stan Hansen – 3,669 points - 45 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 10 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #3

11. Terry Funk – 3,573 points - 43 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob #2

12. Harley Race – 3,501 points - 42 votes – 1 #1 vote - 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Naylor #1

13. Ricky Steamboat – 3,301 points - 45 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #3

14. Dynamite Kid – 3,250 points - 45 votes – 2 #1 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus, Warriorfan #1

15. Akira Hokuto – 3,244 points - 36 votes – 1 #1 vote - 11 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #1

16. Steve Austin – 3,178 points - 44 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB anarchistxx, SE Williams #3

17. Vader – 3,157 points - 43 votes – 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #6

18. Aja Kong – 3,135 points - 38 votes – 4 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #2

19. Nobuhiko Takada – 3,062 points - 36 votes - 2 #1 votes - 8 top 5 votes - 17 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Edwards, Frank O’Keefe #1

20. El Hijo Del Santo – 2,922 points - 35 votes – 5 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB Smoove Luv B, Bix, Loss #3

21. Genichiro Tenryu – 2,870 points - 40 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes VHB Eivion Thanotos #5

22. Rey Mysterio Jr – 2,791 points - 39 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Eivion Thanotos #4

23. Jaguar Yokoda – 2,613 points - 32 votes – 1 #1 vote - 5 top 5 votes – 9 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #1

24. Shinya Hashimoto – 2,509 points - 38 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB WOODOO #6

25. The Destroyer – 2,463 points - 33 votes – 3 top 5 votes –4 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #3

26. Akira Taue – 2,439 points - 39 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #11

27. Shinjiro Ohtani – 2,409 points - 39 votes - VHB This Is Workrate #12

28. Barry Windham – 2,386 points - 37 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #11

29. Manami Toyota – 2,299 points - 33 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #3

30. Giant Baba – 2,180 points - 27 votes - VHB Slick Rick #19

31. Mayumi Ozaki – 2,140 points - 29 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #5

32. Blue Panther – 2,099 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 5 top 10 votes VHB Stunning Grover #4

33. Hiro Hase – 2,069 points - 33 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, anarchistxx #20

34. Arn Anderson – 2,058 points - 35 votes - VHB Big Rob #11

35. Devil Masami – 2,014 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #3

36. Billy Robinson – 1,974 points - 27 votes - VHB Rocket Moose #11

37. Owen Hart – 1,963 points - 36 votes - VHB Ray #16

38. Negro Casas – 1,960 points - 25 votes – 3 top 5 votes – 5 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, wagnerpanther #2

39. Chigusa Nagayo – 1,958 points - 28 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #3

40. Ted Dibiase – 1,942 points – 32 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB – SE Williams #1

41. Jerry Lawler – 1,927 points - 29 votes – 1 #1 vote – 2 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Bix #1

42. Volk Han – 1,920 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 6 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #2

43. Bull Nakano – 1,832 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote VHB Mr Dragon #4

44. Randy Savage – 1,794 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #10

45. Curt Hennig – 1,786 points - 34 votes – VHB Mr Dragon #17

46. Shawn Michaels – 1,784 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB Insane Clown #10

47. Terry Gordy – 1,717 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Rob Naylor #3

48. Jack Brisco – 1,585 points - 25 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB Shoe #4

49. Bobby Eaton – 1,581 points - 30 votes - VHB Goodhelmet #24

50. Jun Akiyama – 1,557 points - 27 votes - VHB Ditch #16

51. Dick Murdoch – 1,521 points – 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Real man’s man #5

52. Steve Williams – 1,510 points - 32 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #13

53. Keiji Mutoh – 1,498 points - 30 votes - VHB Slick Rick #14

54. Steve Regal – 1,494 points - 30 votes - VHB Stunning Grover #13

55. Dave Finlay – 1,469 points - 27 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #1

56. Nick Bockwinkel –1,451 points - 24 votes - VHB SE Williams #11

57. Tully Blanchard – 1,442 points - 26 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #14

58. Tatsumi Fujinami – 1,441 points – 26 votes - 1 top 10 vote - VHB WOODOO #8

59. Mariko Yoshida – 1,438 points - 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #3

60. Dynamite Kansai – 1,381 points - 21 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #16

61. Akira Maeda – 1,326 points - 24 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #11

62. Ultimo Dragon – 1,303 points - 32 votes - VHB throughsilver #15

63. Kiyoshi Tamura – 1,277 points - 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark, Theseus #8

64. The Rock – 1,268 points - 26 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB AoA #8

65. Kyoko Inoue – 1,176 points - 21 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB FLIK #7

66. Kazuo Yamazaki – 1,173 points - 20 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #10

67. El Dandy – 1,171 points - 19 votes – 4 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Ohtani’s Jacket, Bix #2

68. Tiger Mask – 1,143 points – 22 votes – VHB Warriorfan #11

69. Dory Funk Jr – 1,143 points – 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes – VHB Theseus #5

70. Mick Foley – 1,134 points – 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #9

71. Antonio Inoki – 1,121 points - 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Shozo the strong #5

72. Masahiro Chono – 1,034 points - 20 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #20

73. Lioness Asuka – 1,029 points – 20 votes – VHB FLIK #11

74. El Samurai – 1,020 points - 24 votes – VHB roro ur boat #27

75. Ricky Morton – 1,018 points - 20 votes - VHB Loss #19

76. Bob Backlund – 1,010 points – 21 votes – VHB Goodhelmet #19

77. Shiro Koshinaka - 957 points - 18 votes - VHB Theseus #14

78. Adrian Adonis - 938 points - 19 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #22

79. Dump Matsumoto – 852 points – 17 votes – VHB Owen #15

80. Kurt Angle - 817 points - 21 votes - VHB AoA #23

81. Marc Rocco - 813 points - 18 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #16

82. Lou Thesz - 811 points - 12 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #4

83. Great Sasuke – 801 points – 19 votes – VHB Warriorfan #23

84. Chris Jericho – 798 points – 22 votes – VHB AoA #24

85. Rick Rude – 794 points – 19 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #26

86. Hulk Hogan – 780 points – 15 votes – VHB SE Williams #13

87. TAKA Michinoku - 743 points - 19 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #18

88. Brian Pillman – 737 points – 18 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #23

89. Satanico - 735 points - 12 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Bix #9

90. Dean Malenko – 716 points – 22 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Shozo the strong #25

91. Toshiyo Yamada - 699 points - 13 votes - VHB greenman #14

92. Psicosis - 682 points - 19 votes - VHB AoA #25

93. Tommy Rogers – 656 points – 17 votes – VHB Dylan Waco #35

94. Atlantis – 621 points – 12 votes – VHB Insane Clown #16

95. Dan Kroffatt – 619 points – 15 votes – VHB ElPatoume #26

96. Rick Martel – 598 points – 14 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #32

97. Naoki Sano – 579 points – 14 votes – VHB Wild Pegasus #13

98. Dick Togo - 575 points - 19 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #38

99. Sgt Slaughter – 550 points – 14 votes – VHB Benoitsmark #32

100. Riki Choshu - 516 points - 13 votes - VHB Warriorfan #28

Some certainly interesting results though - some I agree with, some I don't.

 

It'd be interesting to see what a PWO poll would look like.

 

Post-Top One-Hundred:

(interesting, surprising, etc)

 

106. Masa Fuchi - 475 points - 10 votes – VHB WOODOO #19

107. MS1 – 471 points – 9 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #4

111. Juventud Guerrera - 446 points - 11 votes - VHB throughsilver #31

117. Bryan Danielson – 390 points – 9 votes – VHB Ditch #15

119. Yoshiaki Fujiwara – 371 points – 8 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Theseus #4

125. La Parka - 333 points - 12 votes - VHB wagnerpanther #44

134. Johnny Saint – 285 points – 7 votes – VHB Ditch #20

135. Steve Grey – 279 points – 6 votes – VHB Big Rob #33

136. Bill Dundee – 270 points – 7 votes – VHB Bix #44

137. Dustin Rhodes – 262 points – 8 votes – VHB FLIK #42

182. Clive Myers – 156 points – 4 votes – VHB Bix #12

196. Manny Fernandez – 124 points – 3 votes – VHB WOODOO #45

239. Buddy Rose – 73 points – 3 votes – VHB Bix #66

258. Shinobu Kandori – 59 points – 2 votes – VHB FLIK #55

264. Sean Waltman – 52 points – 3 votes – VHB Mr Dragon #80

275. Tracey Smothers – 44 points – 3 votes – VHB Dan T, Bix #85

291. Chris Candido – 27 points – 3 votes – VHB Dylan Waco, Insane Clown #90

294. Yoshihiro Tajiri – 26 points – 2 votes – VHB Mr Dragon, Theseus #88

337. Combat Toyoda – 36 points – 1 vote – VHB FLIK #65

425. CM Punk – 4 points – 1 vote – VHB Famous Mortimer #97

Genuinely surprising results

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh this was done in in 2005/6, that explains some of it then.

[goodhelmet]

Yeah, the results would be drastically different. Between youtube, the DVDVR 80s project and easy access to old wrestling through DVDs, the exposure to some guys has increased tenfold. Guys like Takada and DK would drop out of the Top 20 easily. Rey Mysterio would probably be in the same spot since there are bigots against little dudes. Benoit wouldn't even be on my ballot this go-around.

[El-P]

Takada would still be ranked very high by yours truly, and not just from memories, but from watching quite a bit of UWF a few months ago.

The girls would suffer the most from a new poll because no one watches joshi anymore.

Of course Lawler and Fujiwara would benefit the most. I don't remember my list, but guys like Tracy Smothers, Bobby Eaton & Ricky Morton would be much higher than they were. Ditto Fujiwara (well, I hadn't ranked him at all back then). Benoit, I dunno. I was already a bit tired of Benoit by the time we ran the poll, and his stock dropped a bit with me already. I don't think I would even take in account the murders though. I could live without watching another Benoit match for sure but I never had any problem watching him again during my ECW or WCW 98 watch. I do think he would take a pretty hard nosedive in the final results.

[Loss]

I have spent the last year watching and talking about Joshi quite a bit. People may not watch it, but it's their loss. They probably wouldn't rank as well, but there are key people in Joshi that if they were missing from a standard ballot, I'd have a hard time taking it seriously. Anyone who has a style preference so strong that they can't enjoy at least some stuff in every single style has no business making a top 100, or at least has no business expecting others to find value in their top 100.

[El-P]

People may not watch it, but it's their loss. They probably wouldn't rank as well, but there are key people in Joshi that if they were missing from a standard ballot, I'd have a hard time taking it seriously.

Of course. I was guilty of it with lucha at the time, and would probably still be guilty of the same blank spot if a new poll was conducted tomorrow. I did vote for a few great luchadors I had watched thanks to some guy (who disapeared)'s pimping, complete with download links at the time. But it was really a scattered vision to say the very least.

[NintendoLogic]

Benoit is way too high, and Liger probably is as well. But overall, that top ten list looks solid. It's once you go beyond that that things get muddled.

 

Yeah, the results would be drastically different. Between youtube, the DVDVR 80s project and easy access to old wrestling through DVDs, the exposure to some guys has increased tenfold. Guys like Takada and DK would drop out of the Top 20 easily. Rey Mysterio would probably be in the same spot since there are bigots against little dudes. Benoit wouldn't even be on my ballot this go-around.

Are you saying that Rey's ranking is unfairly low? Who on that list absolutely has no business being ranked above Rey other than DK and Takada?

[Loss]

I forgot Devil Masami was ranked so highly, which probably wouldn't happen this time around, but still makes me happy nonetheless. I would definitely bang the drum for Megumi Kudo this time around. I think she's better than many of the far more loved AJW and JWP wrestlers of the time period. El-P will object, but Hotta would generally do well for me too.

[ohtani's jacket]

Kudo failed to deliver in her interpromotional matches and it was those shows which fueled most tape watching back then. It would be fun to do a list these days but I think 2006 was perfecting timing. There was still an enthusiasm for tape watching back then and a type of innocence I'm not sure could be replicated. Innocence is not really the word I'm looking for, but a modern list would be more cynical and esoteric.

[FLIK]

The girls would suffer the most from a new poll because no one watches joshi anymore.

Eh, that's sort of only half true. It's a weird deal whear lots of ppl still watch (if they can get it for free online), just not that many among the msg board posting sub culture.

[Dylan Waco]

This would be fun to do again but I would want the process to be a bit different so that Joshi and Lucha wouldn't get screwed. I'm not a Joshi fan at this point in my life, but there are a bunch of Joshi workers I would consider and would be willing to rewatch and discuss (which is really the key) for the purposes of a project like that. Having said that - and speaking as someone who fell into this camp during the first vote - the "I don't get Lucha" crowd would worry me far more than anything else. I also would want to see European guys get discussed more. And of course Buddy Rose

[JerryvonKramer]

The very low ranking of Lawler stood out to me. Plus the fact that Funk wasn't top 5, that Flair wasn't top 5, and that Dory Funk Jr. was there at 69. I reckon the Dory votes were purely based on rep.

[Al]

It would be fantastic to see a new poll as Youtube has vastly expanded the available footage and made everything much easier to find and watch.

[JerryvonKramer]

Someone should make it happen. I'd like to see a PWO one. What would be quite interesting is if we ran one at a bigger board (DVDR?) to see how the results would differ. I'd be very surprised to see the likes of Liger or Benoit making top 10 and also *shocked* if Flair isn't top 5 at least.

[El-P]

It would be fun to do a list these days but I think 2006 was perfecting timing. There was still an enthusiasm for tape watching back then and a type of innocence I'm not sure could be replicated. Innocence is not really the word I'm looking for, but a modern list would be more cynical and esoteric.

I see what you mean, and I agree. The Benoit tragedy and Misawa's death changed things. The 10 years + monopoly of the WWE changed things also.

[Loss]

Kudo failed to deliver in her interpromotional matches and it was those shows which fueled most tape watching back then.

Which Kudo matches were disappointing? I loved her WWWA title match challenging Kong. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious which ones.