2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[Ricky Jackson]

No Jimmy in HOF.

[Dylan Waco]

Is it possible that no one has noticed this before? I mean...he's never even been on the ballot?? Is it possible Dave doesn't think Jimmy belongs? Personally I have a really hard time accepting ANY manager over Jimmy with the exception of Heenan.

[Ricky Jackson]

Maybe the bad timing of Jimmy being involved in a less than spectacular babyface run with Hogan just before the first class was put together, and the general malaise of his career from about 91/92 onwards, contributed to him being overlooked. I know his late-WWF/ WCW run made me forget about his glory days for a long time.

[Matt D]

Jimmy in Memphis is wildly different than Jimmy anywhere else, but even then, the theme input in WCW (Self High Five made DDP as much as the Diamond Cutter) and awesome running of WCW SN towards the end just should add to his accolades.

[Ricky Jackson]

I think it is also ironic/interesting that Cornette, the "B" Memphis manager, is in the HOF, and the RnR's, the "B" Memphis babyface tag team, will likely get in, while the "A" manager (Hart) and "A" babyface tag team (Fabs) are not in the HOF and may never get in. I'm not sure how it would work with the Fabs since Lane is already in, or if they even had a HOF run together, despite being very influential.

[Dylan Waco]

The Fabs will never even be put on the ballot because Lane is already in.

 

I think there is virtually no way Jimmy gets in now unless it's by fiat and I think that highly unlikely.

[Dylan Waco]

Rather than bog this thread down with more Blackwell-like research projects I'm going to start separate threads for guys over the course of the next few months. I'm working on a similar results analysis for Ken Patera right now. I'm going to try and do the same for Buddy as well with him making the ballot, but the lack of Portland attendance figures makes it tough.

[Ricky Jackson]

Just a random late-night observation, but it almost seems like there is some sort of HOF bias against a lot of wrestlers who did well in the 1977-1984 period, but whose careers dropped off after that point, like Rose, Blackwell, and Patera. You could also add Mr.Wrestling II, Tommy Rich, Sgt. Slaughter, and maybe JYD to that group. Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.

[jdw]

Is it possible that no one has noticed this before? I mean...he's never even been on the ballot?? Is it possible Dave doesn't think Jimmy belongs? Personally I have a really hard time accepting ANY manager over Jimmy with the exception of Heenan.

Dave was really high on Jimmy in Memphis, and has always said massively positive things about him in Memphis. He wasn't high on him in the WWF, nor WCW.

 

I've never paid a great deal of attention to managers in the HOF, other than the hindsight point about Corny should have gone in as a "group" with the MX rather than solo as a manager. Don't even recall a discussion about Hart... nor frankly about Heenan, other than everyone in the 80s and early 90s was high on Bobby being up at the top of all-time managers.

 

Yeah... I'd say Jimmy Hart needs to be on the ballot. If Albano is, Jimmy needs to be. I don't think it would be a tough sell to Dave to get him on, and I suspect Dave would say positive things. Not really one to hammer him too hard over the head about, as you don't really need him to be defensive. I suspect he'd see it as just an oversight that he's never been on the ballot. Might even see him as an oversight of not being in the HOF.

 

It's kind of hard for Gary Hart to be on there and Jimmy not to be.

 

John

[Childs]

Rather than bog this thread down with more Blackwell-like research projects I'm going to start separate threads for guys over the course of the next few months. I'm working on a similar results analysis for Ken Patera right now. I'm going to try and do the same for Buddy as well with him making the ballot, but the lack of Portland attendance figures makes it tough.

Do you think Buddy should get in just for work? I think he has a better case than some of the "work" candidates like Hase and Saito (and of course Angle but that's a losing argument with the WON crowd).

 

It also seems indisputable that he was the longtime centerpiece of a successful territorial promotion. But as you say, the numbers might not be there to make that argument as strong as it could be.

 

I think of him as Lawler with 1/3 as long a career, but again, I'm not sure that's a winning POV given the voting base.

[Dylan Waco]

Rather than bog this thread down with more Blackwell-like research projects I'm going to start separate threads for guys over the course of the next few months. I'm working on a similar results analysis for Ken Patera right now. I'm going to try and do the same for Buddy as well with him making the ballot, but the lack of Portland attendance figures makes it tough.

Do you think Buddy should get in just for work? I think he has a better case than some of the "work" candidates like Hase and Saito (and of course Angle but that's a losing argument with the WON crowd).

 

It also seems indisputable that he was the longtime centerpiece of a successful territorial promotion. But as you say, the numbers might not be there to make that argument as strong as it could be.

 

I think of him as Lawler with 1/3 as long a career, but again, I'm not sure that's a winning POV given the voting base.

 

 

Buddy is a better "work" candidate than most though I personally wouldn't vote for anyone solely on work (that I can think of anyhow). Having said that - and I've beaten this point into the ground by now - I think from the cumulative period from 77-84 he was the best wrestler in the World based on the footage we have. There are really only a small number of guys that I can even see in the debate with him (Lawler, Fujinami, possibly Terry Funk, maybe Jumbo in the eyes of some, sure Flair would get default votes) and I think they all had advantages Buddy didn't have.

 

There are two things that hurt Buddy.

 

The first is that so little of Portland has been seen and a lot of the voters are probably among the least likely people to go back and rewatch it. Loss made the point about HoF guys who are in on work being primarily in on reputation of being good workers and he is basically right. Buddy ALWAYS had that rep, but I think it's hard to contextualize that if you don't actually watch the footage (or didn't see it at the time). I've run into the same issue with Blackwell over at Classics as people have turned themselves into pretzels trying to shoot holes in his candidacy based on statements a simple review of the facts I have compiled would easily refute.

 

The second problem is the Portland business model. Because Portland didn't run big arenas hardly ever it is going to be a hard sell to certain folks that Buddy was a draw. The fact that Dave himself regards Buddy as the biggest draw in Portland wrestling history and correctly noted that Buddy was the last real draw in San Francisco for Shire is something that means less to a lot of people than it should. I have seen some people suggest that Buddy basically anchored the equivalent of ECW, but that's not really a fair comparison for a variety of reasons:

 

A. Portland Sports Arena was owned by Don Owen which meant 100 % of profits off ticket sales and concessions and no rental cost/security cost/et. Also unlike with ECW, the Portland Sports Arena didn't run once every three weeks - it ran at least once a week, often twice a week. Also, I THINK the capacity was higher than the ECW Arena (though not by much). Either way it was consistently a sell out during Rose's peak run and Owen not running bigger buildings had more to do with raw economics/bottom line than it did with fear of failure at the gate.

B. By all accounts Portland got far better tv ratings than ECW ever did, even after they'd been moved into a later time slot (do to violence issues IIRC).

C. Portland matches were 2/3 Falls. That may seem irrelevant but I don't think it was as the tv was formatted around this and it also meant that more pressure was on the good hands (i.e. Buddy) to keep things logical, fresh, exciting, et.

D. Don Owen did occasionally run bigger venues (the anniversary shows, Piper/Buddy feud matches) and they always drew big houses for the area and big gates.

E. The Pacific Northwest of that period was much less interconnected than the Northeast corridor where ECW ran - and MUCH less populated (especially at that time).

F. Portland was a profitable territory, to the point where Don Owen was regarded as one of the two or three fairest payoff guys in the business (note that "fair" and "most money" are obviously not the same thing) and was still one of the richest men in the State of Oregon. Yes he made most of his money elsewhere, but the point is that by all accounts the Pacific Northwest wrestling territory was not a "money mark" promotion for Don, but a way to make even more money and he succeeded in that goal. I'm not sure ECW was ever a profitable wrestling business.

G. Portland ran a real, weekly loop. ECW had venues they ran consistently (Asbury Park, Allentown, the ECW Arena), but never weekly, and never off of a single episode of tv. It would be nice if I could find hard numbers to support it, but the commonly accepted view is that Buddy did great business across the territory during his hot period. This is a view that Meltzer, Farmer and others who would know clearly accept as fact.

H. Portland was a territory with history going back to the 20's and ran through until the early 90's. Being the biggest draw and anchor of that promotion is more significant than being the biggest draw or anchor of a promotion that lasted about as long as Buddy's entire peak run in Portland did.

 

Looking at those raw facts the comp to ECW doesn't really work. But having said that, here is a fun thought experiment.

 

Imagine ECW had a wrestling history going back to the 1920's. Imagine Shane Douglas comes in and after a few months was elevated to the top spot and by the middle of 94 is doing great business. Imagine Douglas works with a lot of also rans and up and comers always in 2/3 fall matches and always of good-to-great quality. Imagine many of them got over huge and were grabbed up by other promoters. Imagine many of them regarded Douglas as one of the best of all time and used him as a reference point when teaching young talent. Imagine that ECW ran a weekly loop, two ECW Arena shows a week, and did sellouts or near sellouts everywhere. Imagine Douglas quickly becomes the biggest draw in the history of the territory. Imagine ECW was raking in payoffs to the point where Douglas didn't want to leave because he could make more and spend less working for Paul Heyman (lol) than he could anywhere else. Imagine Douglas was loaned out to SMW and spiked business becoming Cornette's biggest draw (before ultimately putting Corny out of business after a wild in ring shoot promo ). Imagine Douglas was loaned out to Vince to work against Bret or Shawn and while the business didn't do as well as hoped it produced great matches. Imagine ECW was one of the hottest shows on tv during this period, drawing huge ratings in Philly and the other towns around the loop. Imagine this period lasted until 02 and by the end of the run ECW was running super shows in 10k plus buildings on occasion and drawing by far and away the biggest attendance figures and gates in the companies history with Douglas still hands down the biggest star in the territory. Imagine a lot of footage from the run wasn't originally available, but Douglas reputation was always as a great in ring talent, then years later when a Target LP guy shows up at his house he uncovers boxes of footage Douglas had taped himself. Imagine it became widely available and a consensus among those who watch the footage starts to form. Imagine that the consensus was that Douglas was arguably the best worker in the World for this cumulative run and also arguably the best worker in the World for several individual years during this run. Imagine Douglas left in 02 and moved to Memphis to form a tag team with Cody Michaels. Imagine they had a critically acclaimed series of matches with CM Punk and Colt Cabana though the promotion was on it's dying days and the bouts didn't do much business because nothing really was at the time. Imagine that upon his departure, ECW quickly started losing steam and became nearly irrelevant. Imagine he returned a few years later, fat and on drugs, still a good worker but to a territory that really didn't matter anymore - largely because there had been no one to fill his enormous shoes when he left.

 

Now that's not really a fair comparison even then. For example Rose drew better figures in San Fran, than SMW ever drew do to building size IIRC. Still the point is does anyone doubt that Douglas would be considered a strong contender by Dave and co. if all of the above were true? I don't.

[Log]

Imagine Douglas was loaned out to SMW and spiked business becoming Cornette's biggest draw (before ultimately putting Corny out of business after a wild in ring shoot promo ).

What's this in reference to?

[Dylan Waco]

Imagine Douglas was loaned out to SMW and spiked business becoming Cornette's biggest draw (before ultimately putting Corny out of business after a wild in ring shoot promo ).

What's this in reference to?

 

Buddy's San Fran run with Shire. He pretty much killed the territory at the end of his run, by running out one night and cutting a shoot promo mid ring about what a piece of shit Shire was.

[rovert]

Buddy Rose's obit for anyone with a F4W sub:

http://www.f4wonline.com/newsletter-archiv...h-trouble-more-

[puropotsy]

I keep picturing old fat Shane Douglas doing the "Blow-Away Diet Powder" ad, but it's actually crushed-up Oxycontin.

[Dylan Waco]

I keep picturing old fat Shane Douglas doing the "Blow-Away Diet Powder" ad, but it's actually crushed-up Oxycontin.

I am really pissed I didn't think of this

[FLIK]

Buddy is a better "work" candidate than most though I personally wouldn't vote for anyone solely on work (that I can think of anyhow). Having said that - and I've beaten this point into the ground by now - I think from the cumulative period from 77-84 he was the best wrestler in the World based on the footage we have.

Hmmm, so what Buddy Rose should I go out of my way to watch?

I think i've seen maybe 5 matches of his in my life

[Dylan Waco]

Honestly there are a shitload of awesome Buddy maches. I like him a lot in all The Rockers tags from 86. The Martel matches in 80 are great. I love the Hennig matches in 83. Really fucking love his stuff with Mando from San Fran. Awesome match with Chris Adams from Portland TV. Fuck just buy Will's Set, there are tons of awesome Buddy matches.

[jdw]

I'm guessing Barry Windham will be on the ballot next year for the first time since 1998, and probably make a decent showing.

 

John

[FLIK]

So what's the big knock against Bill Apter going in?

 

I've heard various ppl make a case as to why he should but haven't heard many anti Apter arguments as to why he shouldn't.

Still, he's in the bottom 1/4 or so this year and got a smaller % then he did the year before so obviously a lot of folk don't think that highly of him.

 

I am pleased that Atlantis gets that much support among active wrestlers, also amused that Edge is top ten candidate amongst retired wrestlers but his actual contemporaries don't buy that.

Thinking about this, theory i'll toss out

 

Newer generation = way more apt to be pro international talent and guys who were wrestling when they were probably kids

 

Older generation = more apt to be marks for the guys with impressive paper resumes like Edge & Moolah since belts and main event slots actually meant a lot more in their day

[rovert]

So what's the big knock against Bill Apter going in?

 

Not credible and muddied the super serious business of Pro Wrestling history. Not Dave Meltzer essentially despite having far more reach and influence on common or garden fans especially pre-internet.

[Dylan Waco]

So what's the big knock against Bill Apter going in?

 

Not credible and muddied the super serious business of Pro Wrestling history. Not Dave Meltzer essentially despite having far more reach and influence on common or garden fans especially pre-internet.

 

Yep. Plus could be some wrestlers that won't vote for him because they don't think he covered them or their territories well enough.

[Loss]

Apter should probably go in as well. Complaining about his lack of credibility is criticizing him for something he was never attempting to achieve.

[Dylan Waco]

I think in some ways Apter is the best name on the ballot from the perspective that everyone with a vote should be at least aware of his impact on the business. The only possible reason I can see for voting against Apter is if one wanted to argue that Stanley Weston should go in first or Apter should go in in conjunction with him and the PWI family. But given how Dave runs his HoF that seems like a really odd reason not to vote for him.

[jdw]

My biggest problem with Apter is that we really don't know how impactful *inside* the magazine he was.

 

Apter was the public face of the mag, but he really wasn't the reason any of us bought those fuckers. Did anyone here buy any of those mags specifically to read an Apter piece?

 

Of course Weston should go in first. Beyond him, we truly don't know how impactful someone like Stu Saks or the other editors/writers were in putting it together week after week. Who actually worked the phones and wrote that stuff. Sure, Bill took photos. But having seen a pro wrestling magazine reviewed and edited on the photo level, as much as a photog needs to be there shooting a crapload of shots and not suck at it, the editors really are the ones sifting through the shots to find the ones that not only fit in with the narrative of the article, but also the rest of the mag. You can't have every match represented by a freaking Power Bomb.

 

I'm not saying that Bill wasn't involved in the office... but I don't think we've ever had a fully accurate piece on the inside goings on at the Apter Towers. I know that Bill is respected by his "peers" there, and they do put him over as the face of the mag. But... I worked on a couple of pieces on what was probably their biggest selling item of one given year, and I never talked to him at all. It was someone further up the ladder, both in e-mail and on the phone. My recollection of the conversation with who referred him to me was:

 

"I gave X from PWI your name as someone who might be able to help him something they're working on."

 

Not:

 

"I gave Bill Apter your name as someone who might be able to help him something they're working on."

 

I'd be willing to vote for Bill, but someone needs to make a better case than:

 

"He was the face of the Apter mags and like famous and shit."

 

Mark Madden was the face of the Torch along with Wade for a while... then became bigger on a national level... and he fucking sucked.

 

John