Montreal!

[kjh]

Also, Vince ultimately wanted the belt on Shawn, preferably directly

The directly part is what I don't get.

I've never heard anyone refute Bret's claim that he brought up the idea of droping it to someone else, whether he really would have is irrelevant since Vince seemed hell bent on "Bret MUST lose to Shawn and it MUST be at Survivor Series" with no room for compromise

It wasn't like they had many good options for interim champions. Austin's first WWF title victory was being held back for WrestleMania. The Undertaker was being protected / kept for Kane. Which leaves, who exactly? Ken Shamrock would be the best option, though I don't think they saw even him at World title level. Also, the name of the next In Your House PPV was subtitled D-Generation X, which suggests they wanted Shawn to be champion coming into the PPV.

[FLIK]

Shamrock, Vader, Mankind, shit Goldust, I dunno? For a short transitional lame duck title run i'm not buying that they couldn't find their own Ronnie Garvin. Shamrock fought Michaels in the main event of the DX ppv, they could have switched it thear.

 

With the benefit of hindsight since Shawn was going to feud with and beat Taker anyways they could have made that work easily too. Have the Rumble casket match be whear Shawn got the title.

[El-P]

Shamrock was a natural choice. Plus like Cornette said, if Bret didn't want to do the job, well, put him with Shamrock in the ring and problem solved.

Vince booked himself in a corner with this Shawn vs Bret match, and the fact Bret had creative control, but there's no way it's only his fault. Shit, Bret is leaving his company to make millions of dollar in WCW. Drop the belt already, you didn't win it, it was given to you. Shawn was a asshole, and Bret was a mark. In the middle of this, Vince, paranoid about what Bischoff could do, did what he thought he had to. Everyone is responsible, but Bret just should have dropped the belt, he was the only one able to make it simple.

[kjh]

Of course, they could have found someone if they really wanted to do to be "a short transitional lame duck" champion, but they didn't want that.

[Dylan Waco]

Shamrock was a natural choice. Plus like Cornette said, if Bret didn't want to do the job, well, put him with Shamrock in the ring and problem solved.

Vince booked himself in a corner with this Shawn vs Bret match, and the fact Bret had creative control, but there's no way it's only his fault. Shit, Bret is leaving his company to make millions of dollar in WCW. Drop the belt already, you didn't win it, it was given to you. Shawn was a asshole, and Bret was a mark. In the middle of this, Vince, paranoid about what Bischoff could do, did what he thought he had to. Everyone is responsible, but Bret just should have dropped the belt, he was the only one able to make it simple.

How is Bret responsible for Vince shitting on his contract?

[El-P]

Vince not honoring Bret 's contract was irrelevant by the time of the screwjob. Bret was going to WCW to make shitloads of money, problem solved.

Bret should have dropped the belt, that's all there is to it. That's his job, he's a fucking pro-wrestler. The "creative control" bullshit is as ridiculous as anything Hogan ever did in WCW. He had zilch to lose, he was just a mark for his own character.

[Loss]

Vince not honoring Bret 's contract was irrelevant by the time of the screwjob. Bret was going to WCW to make shitloads of money, problem solved.

Bret should have dropped the belt, that's all there is to it. That's his job, he's a fucking pro-wrestler. The "creative control" bullshit is as ridiculous as anything Hogan ever did in WCW. He had zilch to lose, he was just a mark for his own character.

That's a really short-sighted, emotional way to look at the situation. Bret had a clause in his contract that allowed him control for the last 30 days of his deal. He was completely within his rights to exercise that. Besides, they had a plan -- Bret was going to drop the title. It was completely unnecessary.

[Dylan Waco]

Whether he was a mark for himself is totally irrelevant. Pretending that Vince's decision to shit on his own contract didn't matter at all is the equivalent of saying 9/11 had nothing to do with U.S. policy overseas

[jdw]

It's really not terribly complicated:

 

* Bret was right

* Vince was wrong

* Shawn was wrong

 

Even on the level of being "reasonable", Bret was perfectly reasonable. The other two weren't... at all. It's possble that Vince would have been if Shawn didn't go the "I'm not jobbing" route. Because in the end, Vince would have gotten what he wanted: Bret jobbing to Shawn. But Shawn wasn't wan't reasonable on any level.

 

We tend to over complicate this over the years.

 

John

[Matt D]

I really feel like Vince has gone out of his way to make sure no one's over in their home town ever since.

[Mad Dog]

I'm in no way saying Vince was 100% right or that he didn't do a lot of it wrong. Just that I've come to see his side of things and that I think I might have done the same thing in his situation.

 

Also Vader, Shamrock, the Patriot, Mankind, Jeff Jarrett, Ahmed Johnson, etc. could have all been viable guys to hold the belt for a week or two.

[El-P]

I'm in no way saying Vince was 100% right or that he didn't do a lot of it wrong. Just that I've come to see his side of things and that I think I might have done the same thing in his situation.

Exactly. For years I thought Bret was right, but I don't think that way aynymore. Was that a complete dick move from Vince ? Of course it was. Was Shawn a complete asshole ? Of course he was. Was Bret in his rights to refuse to do the job ? Yes he was. But being in your rights doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Bret could have easily prevent this, because in the end, losing the belt didn't mean jack shit in the real world.

 

I know Bret had the contractual rights to refuse to do he job. I'm just saying his attitude was just pueril in the end. When you deal with an asshole like Shawn you have two way to respond : either you're acting like an asshole yourself, or you act like you're above the bullshit and like a complete gentleman. Bret not wanting to drop the belt to Shawn in Canada was stupid and markish, there's no other way around. Bret should have shown how much of a real class act he was, drop the belt in Canada and leave, washing his hands of Vince having to deal with Shawn and Trip.

 

Really, replace Bret with Hogan, and all of a sudden we would get "Oh, but Hogan was a an asshole, he shouldn't have creative control anyway, that's bad for the company."

 

And Dylan, your analogy is really embarrassing.

[kjh]

Personally I think Dylan and John are spot on with their analysis. Montreal was a problem wholly created by Vince being stupid enough to give Bret the legal right to refuse to do jobs in the last 30 days of his contract, then allowing Bret to reopen negotiations with WCW while he was still WWF champion. I don't think a fair solution to a problem of your own making is to screw the most innocent party in the whole mess.

[El-P]

No one said it was fair. But it all comes down to one thing : Bret not wanting to do a job when he was asked to do it. It's as simple as that. If Bret had said "Fuck it, I'm not a stupid asshole mark like you, I'm gonna put you over because unlike you whiny ass I'm a pro.", nothing would have happened. The rest is irrevelant. Tons of workers would have done the job regardless of the "creative control" bullshit, because this is their job. Bret refusing to do it puts him right at Shawn's or Hogan's level on that matter. And I really like Bret, and as noted I really dislike Vince.

Really, I agree with Cornette's opinion which is the entire thing was a bunch of bullshit from all parts involved. Everybody was wrong.

[kjh]

But he was willing to put that "stupid asshole mark" over, it just wasn't on the day that Vince McMahon wanted. I think you're really mistaken if you think tons of workers would have put Shawn over under the exact same circumstances at that time. Bret went further than a lot of guys would have when Shawn arrogantly told the locker room that he wouldn't put over anybody in the whole company. I think most would have been a lot more steadfast in their refusal to ever put Shawn over.

[El-P]

I don't know. Taker put Shawn over on the previous PPV. He put Shawn over at RR again (not clean each time, I realize Kane was involved, but still). Bret's "I'll put him over, just not on the PPV in Canada because it's my audience" is just a stupid argument.

My take on it is that Bret should have been above that petty crap. I'm not defending Vince nor think it was fair nor that Bret had it coming or anything, I'm just saying no one was right here, and that it was just a clusterfuck. Yes, Vince was responsible for fucking around with Bret's contract. Yes, Shawn was a gigantic asshole who deserved noting less but taking a beating. And yes, Bret was a mark for not wanting to simply drop the belt at the PPV.

 

I'm amazed we can still debate about Montreal 14 years later though. Clearly one of the most important happening in modern wrestling history. I really didn't picture myself talking, much less arguing about it 14 years later when it happened.

[FLIK]

Bret's "I'll put him over, just not on the PPV in Canada because it's my audience" is just a stupid argument.

Like I mentioned on the 1st page, it wasn't about not wanting to lose in Canada. It was about refusing to lose to a guy who when Bret came to him months earlier and said "Shawn despite all our problems i'm still willing to do business and put you over" Shawn disrespected him by responding "thanks, but I want you to know i'll never put you over" and then walked out of the room. FOLLOWED by Bret going to Vince with the story, Vince acting outraged, 30 minutes later bringing them together and then the 1st thing Vince starts with is "Shawn, we're putting the title on you" completely ignoring Bret being pissed off at Shawn disrespecting him.

 

Bret flat out says on the DVD he offered to put Shawn over the next night after SS which was ALSO in Canada, he just wanted Shawn to show him the respect of putting him over 1st.

 

Interesting comment Bret also makes is that before everything spiraled out of controll and things got really bad between them and he was going to leave the company, Bret knew for a while that Shawn was going to be the guy in the top spot who things would be built around in the future and that he was fine with it. Bret's hope was that they could drag the thing out for a few more matches and make money off the feud 1st with the original plan being to build to a rematch from Mania that Bret would win, then have Shawn chase for a while before Bret would then put him over again in the end to pass the torch and take a back seat as far as the spotlight goes.

 

They both admit they stupidly worked themselves into legit hating each other by taking things too personally when all they were doing at first was trying to build heat for the big rematch.

[Dylan Waco]

And Dylan, your analogy is really embarrassing.

Nope. It's 100% correct.

[Johnny Guitar]

I've always thought that it's a shame that Bret and Shawn got so dragged down in politics, and thats what ended up defining their feud.

 

You could have run dozen's of matches between them, trading wins, before you had to get to the gimmicks. Ironman, Ladder, Cage, Best of 3 etc.

 

They should have been "Flair/Steamboat" for the 90's.

[rovert]

I've always thought that it's a shame that Bret and Shawn got so dragged down in politics, and thats what ended up defining their feud.

 

You could have run dozen's of matches between them, trading wins, before you had to get to the gimmicks. Ironman, Ladder, Cage, Best of 3 etc.

 

They should have been "Flair/Steamboat" for the 90's.

Also 1995 would have been SOOOOO much better if the Kliq was a benign and cooperative force politically too.

[Loss]

I wonder how differently things would be had Bret taken up Shawn, Diesel and Razor on their offer to be the ringleader.

[FLIK]

I wonder how differently things would be had Bret taken up Shawn, Diesel and Razor on their offer to be the ringleader

Wait what's that story? Nev heard that one before.

[rovert]

Oh yeah I dont want to take this thread off in a tangent and I know this is primarily a North American forum. So I dont know how much of a big deal Formula 1 is in America but I watched the Blu Ray release of the extraordinary documentary "Senna" among the stories told in it was the Alain Prost vs Ayrton Senna rivalry back to back with the Greatest Rivalries documentary. In it Prost had an ally/friend in Formula 1 President and fellow Frenchman Jean-Marie Balestre. Balestre essentially screwed Senna manipulating the World Championship in favor of Prost, as Senna was disqualified from race victory, fined, and suspended. I couldnt help but make the parrell between the two documentaries.

 

On Senna it is one of those truly great documentaries that works on the level of fan and non-fan alike. Highly recommended if you like documentaries in the ESPN 30 for 30 vein.

[Johnny Guitar]

I've always thought that it's a shame that Bret and Shawn got so dragged down in politics, and thats what ended up defining their feud.

 

You could have run dozen's of matches between them, trading wins, before you had to get to the gimmicks. Ironman, Ladder, Cage, Best of 3 etc.

 

They should have been "Flair/Steamboat" for the 90's.

Also 1995 would have been SOOOOO much better if the Kliq was a benign and cooperative force politically too.

 

Agreed. The 1995 WWF roster was actually pretty great. It's just that nearly everyone and everything was either badly booked or badly mis-packaged. In bizarro world this was one of the best years in company history.

 

I wonder how differently things would be had Bret taken up Shawn, Diesel and Razor on their offer to be the ringleader.

It's another in the long line of great "what if's?" in wrestling. So many different things could have sprung from this.

 

I know the inspiration for "The Clique" was Buddy Rodger's group of workers, back in the 50's.

 

I've always wondered if this some half assed attempt to form a union, post steriod trial. As Vince was arguably at his weakest back then.

 

Bret, Shawn, Nash & Hall, with Owen, Davey & Kid as a group would have had Vince by the nuts. they were basically all his stars. Except Undertaker.

 

Added to that people like Austin and Foley when they showed up, who Bret and Nash where high on.

[Loss]

I wonder how differently things would be had Bret taken up Shawn, Diesel and Razor on their offer to be the ringleader

Wait what's that story? Nev heard that one before.

 

Bret mentioned it in his book. They approached him and said they wanted to form a group that would control the locker room and Vince and asked if he would be their leader. He thought about it and turned it down, saying he felt everyone should make it or not on their own.